Autumnpuma

Red Bull Will Suffer Most In 2011

89 posts in this topic

Two words...names actually...Adrian Newey.

He is the reason I know that the RB7 will be the fastest one out there. The suspension i refer to is the pull rod suspension that they had to ditch to get a split diffuser in. Everyone else is using the commonly accepted better type, being push rod...but Newey wouldn't put pull rod in for no reason...he's too good for that. It doesn't need to be revolutionary...just provide better mechanical grip, which will allow lower aero settings.

There's a limit to how low the settings can be and it's the same for all teams...not sure of the advantage there. Also, I don't think that suspension alone will keep them comfortably in the front as they were in 2010.

The nose thing is about creating downforce, yes, but it's to get a wedge shape under the car so that there is a bigger gap at the front, and a smaller "slot" at the rear, and thus the air has to move faster to get out from underneath and creates negative, sucking, pressure. The splitter is designed to push air under the car, not used as an additional front "wing" so to speak, so that the maximum amount of air is rammed under the car and out the diffuser.

Partially right. The splitter can serve another purpose and on the RB6 it was hinged and allowed the nose to dip downward in order to bring the front wing closer to the ground...giving the car more front downforce than it's competitors in the crucial medium speed corners.

RB5 was quick. Quickest of all the non double diffuser gang. RB7 is going to go back to RB5, so they will be quick.

Newey is the man.

If all the teams are planning to run their '09 car, I'd agree with you, but they have been developing their cars without the bendy splitter and integrated blown diffuser that dictated the design of the whole RB6..so I see them a step ahead from the get-go.

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Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Ross Brawn doesn't design the cars does he? I thought he was just team manager/strategist.

And yes, past form. I'd be very suprised if Newey produced a dog after two seasons of producing the best car on the grid. Unless he gets a knock to the head and forgets how to design race winning cars that is...

I agree.

Williams and McLaren 1997 versus 1998.....

Edited by dribbler

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Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Ross Brawn doesn't design the cars does he? I thought he was just team manager/strategist.

And yes, past form. I'd be very suprised if Newey produced a dog after two seasons of producing the best car on the grid. Unless he gets a knock to the head and forgets how to design race winning cars that is...

MP4-21?

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Every Scuderia Ferrari has a 2005...I don't think Red Bull will get behind as much as the other teams will get ahead at a quicker rate. That's been happening for years now with teams like Renault, McLaren, Ferrari, and Honda/Brawn/Mercedes all going up and down. It's Red Bull's turn to peak and the regulations are helping make 2010 be that point. It doesn't mean they'll fall to P7 in the constructors'. But I do think it's fair to say their car won't have such a huge advantage over the others...

...or maybe I just hope, since the title fight could get dull if the RB7 is as good as the RB6 was. Vettel will surely drive better in 2011, and if it weren't for his retirements, the title would have been over long before Abu Dhabi.

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Hi everybody... This is my first post so I'm new here but i've been reading this forum for a while.

The nose thing is about creating downforce, yes, but it's to get a wedge shape under the car so that there is a bigger gap at the front, and a smaller "slot" at the rear, and thus the air has to move faster to get out from underneath and creates negative, sucking, pressure. The splitter is designed to push air under the car, not used as an additional front "wing" so to speak, so that the maximum amount of air is rammed under the car and out the diffuser.

The angle of the car is right the opposite of what you written... its the front which has to be lower and the rear has to be higher. This is called rake.

The splitter works as its name suggests as a spliter betwen the underneath air and air which travels to the back of a car on top of it. For 2011 the splitter is much more controled so it cant be bend ( in the upper position) which helped the car to run more rake. (another example of running more rake is Ferraris 3,5° angled engine mounting http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2010/0/719.html)

Ohh, just found a site with tehnical changes 2011 explained.... I tought someone else would like to read it so here it is:

http://scarbsf1.word...-and-explained/

Cheers

Edited by FBR

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Hi everybody... This is my first post so I'm new here but i've been reading this forum for a while.

The angle of the car is right the opposite of what you written... its the front which has to be lower and the rear has to be higher. This is called rake.

The splitter works as its name suggests as a spliter betwen the underneath air and air which travels to the back of a car on top of it. For 2011 the splitter is much more controled so it cant be bend ( in the upper position) which helped the car to run more rake.

Ohh, just found a site with tehnical changes 2011 explained.... I tought someone else would like to read it so here it is:

http://scarbsf1.word...-and-explained/

Cheers

i will tell you something that nobody told me when i joined this forum: "hello and welcome!"

be ware of the little angry green alien called marvin, dont say a thing against vettel and dont write anything with big letters, they dont like it, and if you are a foreigner some of them will hate you.

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i will tell you something that nobody told me when i joined this forum: "hello and welcome!"

be ware of the little angry green alien called marvin, dont say a thing against vettel and dont write anything with big letters, they dont like it, and if you are a foreigner some of them will hate you.

Wrong. If you act like an idiot and say stupid things, then you're bound to get that reaction.

Welcome to Total F1 FBR! Don't take everything that is said too seriously around here. :P

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Lets wait till Melbourne to decide, Bahrain will probs be a borefest!

We'll see...

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Welcome to Total F1 FBR! Don't take everything that is said too seriously around here. :P

i cant believe my eyes,marvin you are so polite, if i did not knew better i would say that some decent happy alien overtook your body, maybe it did so here is something for you: post-3582-086577100%201295492340_thumb.jpg

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We'll see...

I feel this season is far more unpredictable than any in the past decade. Of course, Brawn was a fantastic interlude and RBR has been a great success story but this year's 'spec' car is a bit of a 'Frankenstein' job and it's anyone's guess how it will go for all the teams. We hear the soft tyres will be a 10-lap wonder and the option a lot more durable to give the minnows a shot at the points. Pirelli announced today that the fronts have been constructed to a much stronger design than their predecessor. With no adjustment to the front wing available, they need to be. So, my guess is, RBR will be there or thereabouts and so will Ferrari but i expect McLaren to lead the way with Williams the one to watch from the pack.

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So, my guess is, RBR will be there or thereabouts and so will Ferrari but i expect McLaren to lead the way with Williams the one to watch from the pack.

I thought you were an insider but you can only guess? :P

At least it shows you're knowledgeable of F1... I don't understand how anybody can even attempt to predict anything at this stage.

Even team personnel simply wish and hope and say what they must to make sure sponsors sign or stay and to make sure team spirit is at its best before anything starts. No one has seen the new cars , they haven't hit the track yet and even that is not a very good indication. We all know the real indication will only come after at least 2-3 races.

There have been so many new season upsets over time in F1...

I believe the usual suspects will be there, Newey is never better than with rule changes. Perhaps a few surprises lurk? Some teams have done good the year after Gascoygne has left them, so will Lotus racing have the same fate? He's still around, so... Let's wait and see. Lotus group could surprise and they must be promising fast as Kubica only seems good when the material is there otherwise he sort of "drags his feet" I find (last BMW year facing Heidfeld). Merc certainly have the power, and even though I am personnally anti-"german guy with prominent chin" I unfortunately think he can't be totally counted out as he did seem to be getting there at the end of last season. Who knows if Marusia-Virgin will not be a bit of a surprise with the added computation capacity? After all NASA uses the same principle when designing space crafts, so why not? Williams has also shown they are not far. Mind you since their new car is supposed to be radical it could mean great things, but the last time they went radical or rather different (moose nose) was definitely not a success. Then who knows, TR or Sauber could have some luck with their new car? And who knows if Kobayashi won't let all hell loose and sava them to a degree.

This season really promises. Can't wait.

I guess the only certainty is HRT will suck :snigger: if they're even there...

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Thanks for the welcome :naughty:

Yeah... I know... every other post is sarcastic around here :P I dont mind that :D

But you do have some great writers/thinkers and thats what counts. So I think I might get by just OK. (Though I am a foreigner :rolleyes: ; and some other little details will come soner or later (one of them being a Fernando fan :clap3:) )

Anyway... I really dont belive that this season is gonna be that much different from last years. Yeah, Red Bull might strugle a little bit but still they're gonna be there with Ferrai and McLaren. Mecca is another question along with Renault (I mean Lotus :)).

Red Bull knew of this changes and so did others. So I think Newey came up with something new... also McLaren... The question is when will Ferrari produce something out of the box.

Cheers

Edited by FBR

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What is a foreigner? All them English guys here are foreigners to me :D

Welcome to the forum FBR!

And to try to get something on topic here, I prefer to wait to see what happens but I tend to agree with people that are confident in Red Bull.

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Please, everybody put your cristal balls in a wardrove and start using other tools. :)

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Please, everybody put your cristal balls in a wardrove and start using other tools. :)

What's a 'wardrove'eusa_think.gif

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I think that RBR will have advantage in speed through corners,as they had it for last two seasons.

That means they will easily sneak to their rivals through corners and on straight try to pass them.

When they pass them they will make time difference so they wont be endangered when next straight comes.

UNFORTUNATELY WE WILL HAVE TO WATCH MORE OF VETTELS FINGER! :blink::nono1:

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What's a 'wardrove'eusa_think.gif

Wardrove or wardrobe, /v/ and /b/ sounds the same in Spanish. :king:

Ok, you all put your cristal balls in a drawer and start using other tools like your technical knowledge, technical information, contacts, brain cells... :unsure:

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Red Bull have confirmed their car will be launched on the 1st Feb. Earlier testing the car this year, whilst McLaren will be releasing their car later than normal. Will be interesting to see who has the better car.

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If all the teams are planning to run their '09 car, I'd agree with you, but they have been developing their cars without the bendy splitter and integrated blown diffuser that dictated the design of the whole RB6..so I see them a step ahead from the get-go.

Nobody will obviously be using their '09 designs, but I think the point is that in 2009 Red Bull had a race winning package, without the innovations that came into the car in 2010, which should mean those items aren't the holy grail of what made their car so good. I think that anyone who believes Red Bull will be slow in 2011 is kidding themselves, because I fully believe they will still be fast.

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Sorry I haven't gotten back to this thread for a while...other stuff came up. Anyway, I'm still waiting to read a somewhat technical reason to believe Newey will design a fast car when almost all the things that made the RB6 a fast car have been taken away.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Ross Brawn doesn't design the cars does he? I thought he was just team manager/strategist.

Ah, no. Excluding his current role at Merc, Brawn has been a technical director. That's a very broad title but it means he was in charge of everything having to do with the car. He chose the direction and co-ordinated the employees, but every greeblie, every CFD result, every sketch of every bit had to go through him. He chose the direction for the car's design. Mikey's Ferrari may have had elements of other people's designs, but that car was all Brawn's. He determined everything that went into the car. Brawn may not be a guy to sit down at a computer, grab a Wacom, fire up Photoshop and start drawing a car, but he knows how one should be designed. Most technical directors are also car designers, like Newey, Gascoyne and Willis, but you need not be a designer to be technical director, but it sure helps.

What I'm driving at here is Brawn directed the design, as technical director, of more Championship-winning cars than did Newey in the same role. That's an important distinction. If you compare Newey's car when he was just a designer under Head to his stint at McLaren, you're comparing apples to oranges. Newey came up with a damned fine car at Williams, but a car can't run on pleasing shape alone. Head was responsible for the total car. You must compare the cars from Newey's time as technical director when *all* the decisions were his. Only then can you predict how he'll cope with these new rules.

And yes, past form. I'd be very suprised if Newey produced a dog after two seasons of producing the best car on the grid. Unless he gets a knock to the head and forgets how to design race winning cars that is...

This isn't very convincing. The RB6's speed was based mostly on clever use of aero loopholes that have now been closed. If you take the sword away from a swordsman, is he still going to run you through?

Edited by Autumnpuma

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Those who say that Red Bull are going to be fastest on the basis that they have been so good for the past couple of years, are probably equally as flawed in their logic as those who say they will suffer the most just because they've been fast for the last couple of years and the regulations are different now. That's because neither of those things has anything to do with Red Bull's success, or lack of, this year; their success in 2011 will simply depend on how well they interpret and adapt to the new regulations. So for me at least, Red Bull may suffer because they make some design flaws with the new regs, or they may well succeed because they do a really great job on the car and think of some all new innovations, but any speculation based on either of those schools of thought above is, well, speculative.

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Those who say that Red Bull are going to be fastest on the basis that they have been so good for the past couple of years, are probably equally as flawed in their logic as those who say they will suffer the most just because they've been fast for the last couple of years and the regulations are different now. That's because neither of those things has anything to do with Red Bull's success, or lack of, this year; their success in 2011 will simply depend on how well they interpret and adapt to the new regulations. So for me at least, Red Bull may suffer because they make some design flaws with the new regs, or they may well succeed because they do a really great job on the car and think of some all new innovations, but any speculation based on either of those schools of thought above is, well, speculative.

Brawn/Merc fizzled into virtually nothing after one of the most extraordinary debuts ever in F1. RBR and Newey have been around a number of years and without major reliability problems, driver errors, infighting and obtuse politicking they would probably have been Champions long before now. That said, I believe they would need a Mercedes engine to make it two in a row, something they wanted but couldn't get. Some teams have been talking up their chances and I believe McLaren may have something up their sleeves but Ferrari have been virtually silent and that may be ominous. Tony and Mike's Lotus should make ground with a Renault lump and the quiet Sauber camp with the mighty Kobi may surprise but Williams are my tip to come back to the fore.

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Brawn/Merc fizzled into virtually nothing after one of the most extraordinary debuts ever in F1. RBR and Newey have been around a number of years and without major reliability problems, driver errors, infighting and obtuse politicking they would probably have been Champions long before now. That said, I believe they would need a Mercedes engine to make it two in a row, something they wanted but couldn't get. Some teams have been talking up their chances and I believe McLaren may have something up their sleeves but Ferrari have been virtually silent and that may be ominous. Tony and Mike's Lotus should make ground with a Renault lump and the quiet Sauber camp with the mighty Kobi may surprise but Williams are my tip to come back to the fore.

I agree that Sauber could suprise. They are my dark-horse to get some results people won't be expecting.

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Sauber? Sauber?

Sorry, just have to pick myself up off the floor.

They have neither the money, nor the talent to do that. Brawn GP lucked into a good Honda design, but then without the money the car was caught and passed mid to late season by the other teams. The lack of funds in '09 resulted in a less developed/designed/whatever car for 2010, and hence Merc did not have a strong car to start with.

Now look at Sauber....never did better than 4th in all those years prior to BMW buying them out (I believe that was the year Kimi and Heidfeld drove for them). With Beamer money they did quite well...even won a race. Then Beamer up and quit, severely limiting development of the 2010 car. It was a struggle to have Sauber even exist in 2010...let alone have anyone actually design a car. Throughout 2010, they survived on Double Whoppers with Cheese at a few events, and had to sponsor themselves with the Sauber Club thing. Do you think much money was left over to develop a 2011 car? I highly doubt that.

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