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Kopite Girl

Jenson Button

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I don't think its extremely difficult. It may not be easy, but not extremely difficult.

Jens doesn't have age on his side. He spent the younger half of his career in the dominant Ferrari/Schumacher years, and nobody at that point could beat him. However, he's proved his point and written himself into history. He raucously beat the rest of the field in 2009 and even had a dodgy mid-season, proving that he can be dominant in the right set up which after driving those donkeys the past few years, sticking with it and never complaining he was richly rewarded and well deserved.

I'm reading he needs more fire in his belly. I just think he needs to show it more. My memory is rubbish but the fight between him and Alonso in which Jens beautifully gained position was perhaps one of the most gutsy and daring overtaking manoeuvres I've ever seen. His determination to succeed shows in the fact that he stayed put and was willing to make the team work. At BAR Honda, where he scored his first podium was a great race. That year was a good year. His first win, effortlessly brilliant. A good call, and well deserved. I think Button is the last of a dying breed. Gentleman Jim would have been proud.

That is why I like him. I think Cav and Sean and George have raised some good points too.

Jens can win again. He has proved his worth.

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I don't think its extremely difficult. It may not be easy, but not extremely difficult.

Jens doesn't have age on his side. He spent the younger half of his career in the dominant Ferrari/Schumacher years, and nobody at that point could beat him. However, he's proved his point and written himself into history. He raucously beat the rest of the field in 2009 and even had a dodgy mid-season, proving that he can be dominant in the right set up which after driving those donkeys the past few years, sticking with it and never complaining he was richly rewarded and well deserved.

I'm reading he needs more fire in his belly. I just think he needs to show it more. My memory is rubbish but the fight between him and Alonso in which Jens beautifully gained position was perhaps one of the most gutsy and daring overtaking manoeuvres I've ever seen. His determination to succeed shows in the fact that he stayed put and was willing to make the team work. At BAR Honda, where he scored his first podium was a great race. That year was a good year. His first win, effortlessly brilliant. A good call, and well deserved. I think Button is the last of a dying breed. Gentleman Jim would have been proud.

That is why I like him. I think Cav and Sean and George have raised some good points too.

Jens can win again. He has proved his worth.

You remember that move at Hockenheim maybe because it was one of the only memorable overtakes he has done. Good as it was, maybe it was only what anyone else could have done with the car he had. You really think he was better than Alonso as a driver on that day? Or that he's better than him now? Good luck to you if you do believe that. I canot prove nor disprove. I just don't think he is.

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You remember that move at Hockenheim maybe because it was one of the only memorable overtakes he has done. Good as it was, maybe it was only what anyone else could have done with the car he had. You really think he was better than Alonso as a driver on that day? Or that he's better than him now? Good luck to you if you do believe that. I canot prove nor disprove. I just don't think he is.

Hockenheim! That's the one, thank you.

My memory is in pieces since cracking my head open on a wall for the second time, but I guess every person has a memory of a driver that sticks out. I don't think its because it "was the only memorable manoeuvre he's pulled". I mean, you have the race where he was being strangled by his own helmet, and he drove one handed. The race where he led and made a brilliant pass on MS (I think that was Indy 04 or 05 I'm really not sure.)

I think he outdrove Alonso by a country mile that race. And I really have to swallow my pride for this, but Alonso is the better of the two. I think more championships have proven this. But, I do believe that Button has had more flashes of brilliance than Alonso. However, you have nothing to prove. Its your opinion and I fully respect that.

Back to the memorable things F1 drivers have pulled. Your memory will automatically keep things that have had more impact and publicity. For instance, Our Nige driving Senna back to the pits. Jim Clark's heel toe, etc etc. Its just the way the individual thinks.

I'm a Jenson fan, yes. A big fan. I think objectively, I'm less biased than I thought I was. Do you agree?

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No, because that might be biased?

Ah shut it! :P

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I don't think its extremely difficult. It may not be easy, but not extremely difficult.

Ok, maybe extremely difficult is too pesimistic but Button will have to change his approach to the Championship. It doesn't matter if he makes a few mistakes (not many) during the season as long as he's on the limit when he needs it. His cool head may help him sometimes but he'll have to drive all or nothing more often and of course he has to do it right. Last year the Championship was Vettel's mainly because he had the best car, if McLaren develops a rocket of a car Button will still have to deal with Hamilton in that car. Even if he beats Hamilton, he will probably have some decent rivals (Red Bull, Ferrari, Mercedes...).

In fact it will be a very difficult Championship for all of them no matter who we are talking about. I think Alonso and Hamilton are stronger than all others if they have a competitive car throughout the whole season but any of them will have to drive at their peak most of the season and at the same time they will have to avoid silly mistakes. The Championship will probably be decided in the last race, anything can happen.

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I laid a goodly sum of money on JB pre-Xmas to take the WDC this year at 22-1. He is currently @14-1, as is Webber, Schumacher and Rosberg. Alonso, Lewis and Vettel are @5/2. Kubica is 20-1. I'm happy.

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You also think Kimi is that great.

The prosecution rests, your Honor.

at least they're way better drivers than Alonso...

Alonso won't inherit another championship while lewis is around....

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at least they're way better drivers than Alonso...

Alonso won't inherit another championship while lewis is around....

Nor if first impressions of the new car are anything to go by...she has the feel of that plain Jane girl standing by the punchbowl at the school dance with no one asking her to dance, looking all awkward like....

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Hockenheim! That's the one, thank you.

My memory is in pieces since cracking my head open on a wall for the second time, but I guess every person has a memory of a driver that sticks out. I don't think its because it "was the only memorable manoeuvre he's pulled". I mean, you have the race where he was being strangled by his own helmet, and he drove one handed. The race where he led and made a brilliant pass on MS (I think that was Indy 04 or 05 I'm really not sure.)

I think he outdrove Alonso by a country mile that race. And I really have to swallow my pride for this, but Alonso is the better of the two. I think more championships have proven this. But, I do believe that Button has had more flashes of brilliance than Alonso. However, you have nothing to prove. Its your opinion and I fully respect that.

Back to the memorable things F1 drivers have pulled. Your memory will automatically keep things that have had more impact and publicity. For instance, Our Nige driving Senna back to the pits. Jim Clark's heel toe, etc etc. Its just the way the individual thinks.

I'm a Jenson fan, yes. A big fan. I think objectively, I'm less biased than I thought I was. Do you agree?

Based on that post, yes, I agree.

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Why? They're here already. We're watching them become great in front of our eyes. Lewis, Sebastian and Robert.

None of them are on the same level, compared to their rivals, that Gilles, Clark or Senna were.

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I agree with you about Senna.

I think Gilles can easily be matched with Lewis nowadays. Lewis still lacks the magic (and the right environment to develop it) that Gilles had. But I think he is potentially the most Gilles-esque driver out there.

I think Clark was overhyped but then again, I wouldn't dare to give a veredict on any driver before the Gilles era.

Sebastian so far is a one time wonder. Let's watch how he fares this year and then we will be able to tell if he is the next big thing or just another Jenson *ducks*

Robert is the most intriguing for me. A gross division would be Gilles-esque drivers vs Prost-esque ones. Lewis as the former. Schumi and Nando as the latter (Nando a little more veered through the Gilles camp). Robert seems to float around in the middle. If he can get the best from both sides then you better forget about Vettel. Last year's Seb was 70% Red Bull 30% pure Vettel juice. Last year's Bob/Renault seemed the other way around.

Those guys are really dangerous. Never mind the numbers if you want to enjoy them. Just watch them race and you'll never get tired of F1.

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I agree with you about Senna.

I think Gilles can easily be matched with Lewis nowadays. Lewis still lacks the magic (and the right environment to develop it) that Gilles had. But I think he is potentially the most Gilles-esque driver out there.

I think Clark was overhyped but then again, I wouldn't dare to give a veredict on any driver before the Gilles era.

In another thread I mentioned that all racing drivers (Formula 1 in particular) believe they are the best. If only they had X car then they'd win races too. Senna, Clark and Gilles (there are more but these three are the biggies, I think) were almost unanimously thought of as the best by their fellow competitors. They were so good, in fact, that their competitors had no problem accepting that they were better drivers without the usual hit to their massive egos.

Each of those three drivers demonstrated an ability to utterly dominate their competition, even in cars that weren't light-years ahead of their rivals. Name me one driver on the grid that is so hailed by his competitors. Mikey comes the closest, even after his terrible year (a news story recently quoted Alonso as picking Mikey as his main rival for 2011).

One last parting comment about Clark: read a bit about him before you state that he's 'over-hyped'. I would suggest this book as your primer:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jim-Clark-Racing-Eric-Dymock/dp/0760316899/ref=sr_1_30?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1296249350&sr=1-30

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In another thread I mentioned that all racing drivers (Formula 1 in particular) believe they are the best. If only they had X car then they'd win races too. Senna, Clark and Gilles (there are more but these three are the biggies, I think) were almost unanimously thought of as the best by their fellow competitors. They were so good, in fact, that their competitors had no problem accepting that they were better drivers without the usual hit to their massive egos.

While at this, I will take the opportunity to talk about my first second favourite subject of interest: Alonso. Can't help but remark here that no matter how the question for the poll was phrased or who were the guys asked, Alonso has remained on top of every poll be it among current team drivers, all-time drivers and team managers/others as the best driver of the field for at least the past couple of years and despite all the scandals. That alone is enough to making him standout even among other WDCs. (This isn't a reply to your point, obviously, more of an off topic and not too subtle attempt and showing off my boy :lol:)

Each of those three drivers demonstrated an ability to utterly dominate their competition, even in cars that weren't light-years ahead of their rivals. Name me one driver on the grid that is so hailed by his competitors. Mikey comes the closest, even after his terrible year (a news story recently quoted Alonso as picking Mikey as his main rival for 2011).

I am not so sure about Schumi, simply because I can't see any more or less accepted fact to suppoert his rise in threat level. I do wish he gets back in form asap because I relish in epic battles and so far there have been few of them, considering the names on track. As for Alonso's comments, I would take them with a pinch of salt as he used to ignore Lewis when he was t he main challenge and Schumi in the old days. I think he is saying it partly because he thinks so honestly, but also just to send a message to Seb and Lewis ("I don't think you two are worth mentioning"), which does not mean he actually fears no challenge coming from them.

One last parting comment about Clark: read a bit about him before you state that he's 'over-hyped'. I would suggest this book as your primer:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jim-Clark-Racing-Eric-Dymock/dp/0760316899/ref=sr_1_30?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1296249350&sr=1-30

Like I said, I wouldn't dare to issue a veredict. Mine was more of a feeling. The only driver of which I watched some substantial footage (and even that one was very very fragmented) was Fangio for obvious reasons. I could read a thousand books but I feel more comfortable giving my totally partisan opinions about drivers I have actually watched race for full races with at least a minimal understanding of what was going on. I can give an opinion on Farina, or Moss, or Hill, but they will be based on what I read and that is valid, but not the same as when I talk about Senna, whose magic I actually experienced.

Baseed on that I made the difference between my thoughts on Senna and Gilles for one side and Clark from the other. Nothing else. :D I do appreciate the link fos the book, though. A good book on Formula One giving me new points of views and insights is something I could make good use of, as I tend too much to talk out of my arse :D

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I thought Alonso's remark about Michael was tongue-in-cheek. No doubt that Michael could have podiums and the odd win here and there, but a threat for the title? Maybe Alonso woke up that morning in 2004.

That remark would have narked his real rivals, and that was surely the real point.

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I thought Alonso's remark about Michael was tongue-in-cheek. No doubt that Michael could have podiums and the odd win here and there, but a threat for the title? Maybe Alonso woke up that morning in 2004.

That remark would have narked his real rivals, and that was surely the real point.

maybe alonso knows something that we don't know. let's wait to see.

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That is a great book on Clark, read it a while back. Obviously like Andrés I still can't reach a full opinion on the guy because I never saw him race, but at least the opinions of others around then suggest Clark was special (and the small amount of footage available does too).

As for Alonso's remark on Schumi it was almost certainly just a shot to his more significant rivals, and possibly (as James Allen pointed out) a way of putting even more pressure on Schumi, an old nemesis (the old saying "in F1 you are either taking pain or giving it" applies here). These mind games.. perhaps Rossi's company rubbed off on Fernando at the Wroom event!

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I dont even think his remark was a mind game he plays on either of them. I dont think he actually thinks that Schumi, Lewis or Seb would be botheed because he ignores them or puts pressure on them. My guess is that it was aimed to his public.

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My gut feeling is that as long as Lewis stays at McLaren, that Jenson will struggle to beat him. To me, whilst Jenson's particular skills lay in his great racing brain, he can adapt to all situations and make the right calls, he can win races where his opponents are losing their heads and making mistakes, particularly in changeable conditions. However when it comes to single lap qualifying, I feel that Jenson, sadly, under delivers. Not to say that he's a terrible qualifier, but he is team mates with a driver who is probably, next only to Vettel the best qualifier on the grid. The problem for Jenson is that normal races happen more often than crazy races, and in normal races, all other things being equal I just feel Lewis has the slight edge over him in speed.

Can he win another WDC? certainly. Do I think he's likely to do it whilst Lewis is his team mate? no.

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While at this, I will take the opportunity to talk about my first second favourite subject of interest: Alonso. Can't help but remark here that no matter how the question for the poll was phrased or who were the guys asked, Alonso has remained on top of every poll be it among current team drivers, all-time drivers and team managers/others as the best driver of the field for at least the past couple of years and despite all the scandals. That alone is enough to making him standout even among other WDCs. (This isn't a reply to your point, obviously, more of an off topic and not too subtle attempt and showing off my boy :lol:)

Really? Aside from the novelty of disagreeing with me do you honestly put Alonso in the same league with Gilles and Senna? Ok, I *do* see that all you're really disagreeing with me about is my saying that a proof of Clark, Senna and Gilles' greatness is due to the opinions of their competitors. Put that aside for a moment and ask yourself if you really think Alonso and Senna sit side-by-side.

I am not so sure about Schumi, simply because I can't see any more or less accepted fact to suppoert his rise in threat level. I do wish he gets back in form asap because I relish in epic battles and so far there have been few of them, considering the names on track. As for Alonso's comments, I would take them with a pinch of salt as he used to ignore Lewis when he was t he main challenge and Schumi in the old days. I think he is saying it partly because he thinks so honestly, but also just to send a message to Seb and Lewis ("I don't think you two are worth mentioning"), which does not mean he actually fears no challenge coming from them.

Interesting that on the BBC pre-show from the first race last year (I think) Button and Lewis had a sit-down chat and answered questions. One question was about Alonso and Lewis correctly said that Alonso was the biggest challenge for everyone to overcome that season because he was so strong a driver. He was right. But that statement is different from the kind of statement Prost made about Gilles (which is in my signature, btw). It's that second kind of statement I'm referring to when I say Gilles, Senna and Clark were so far above the rest....and that we havent seen their like since Senna.

Like I said, I wouldn't dare to issue a veredict. Mine was more of a feeling. The only driver of which I watched some substantial footage (and even that one was very very fragmented) was Fangio for obvious reasons. I could read a thousand books but I feel more comfortable giving my totally partisan opinions about drivers I have actually watched race for full races with at least a minimal understanding of what was going on. I can give an opinion on Farina, or Moss, or Hill, but they will be based on what I read and that is valid, but not the same as when I talk about Senna, whose magic I actually experienced.

That's about as ridiculous as saying that you don't feel like you can comment on, or believe, anything unless you've experienced it firsthand.

***

I thought Alonso's remark about Michael was tongue-in-cheek. No doubt that Michael could have podiums and the odd win here and there, but a threat for the title? Maybe Alonso woke up that morning in 2004.

That remark would have narked his real rivals, and that was surely the real point.

As for Alonso's remark on Schumi it was almost certainly just a shot to his more significant rivals, and possibly (as James Allen pointed out) a way of putting even more pressure on Schumi, an old nemesis (the old saying "in F1 you are either taking pain or giving it" applies here). These mind games.. perhaps Rossi's company rubbed off on Fernando at the Wroom event!

Ok, so take Alonso's comment out of what I've said and my point still remains.

This is ridiculous. You three are arguing for the sake of argument. The three I've named (exclude Mikey if you choose but I'll still include him) are widely regarded as being far above their competitors and no driver on the current grid can sit comfortably in their league nor has shown the level of complete dominance that they did their rivals. That is a statement that most F1 fans and quite a few journalists/historians would agree with and I'm content to let it stand.

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This is ridiculous. You three are arguing for the sake of argument. The three I've named (exclude Mikey if you choose but I'll still include him) are widely regarded as being far above their competitors and no driver on the current grid can sit comfortably in their league nor has shown the level of complete dominance that they did their rivals. That is a statement that most F1 fans and quite a few journalists/historians would agree with and I'm content to let it stand.

I didn't comment on your choice of those three drivers because I don't particuarly agree but see little virtue in arguing the toss over something I can't prove and is only my opinion. Yes, Senna was ahead of his rivals but in my view, your other choices are questionable.

The only ridiculous thing is your insistence to carry on your crusade to somehow fruitlessly prove you are correct. Why mention the unnamed journalists and historians to give your argument weight? I think we all know enough to be able to decide for ourselves. Unless of course you can pull out a quote from a so called expert who will categorically prove that Clark and Gilles were streets ahead of their contemporaries. Don't bother, you won't.

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Really? Aside from the novelty of disagreeing with me do you honestly put Alonso in the same league with Gilles and Senna? Ok, I *do* see that all you're really disagreeing with me about is my saying that a proof of Clark, Senna and Gilles' greatness is due to the opinions of their competitors. Put that aside for a moment and ask yourself if you really think Alonso and Senna sit side-by-side.

Bah, aim those big cowboy guns somewhere else :P You failed to grasp what I meant in every single paragraph I wrote. I think the "this isn't a reply to your point2 bit might have given you a hint, had you bothered to read it with less passion. I would never put Alonso at the same league. Not now, not ever (probably). All I did was comment that most ppl connected with F1 nowadays clearly place Alonso above his contemporaries (and that was excluding Schumi or including today's Schumi, in any case not THE Schumi). Any other conection with Senna/Gilles or disagreements with you is not included in the package.

Interesting that on the BBC pre-show from the first race last year (I think) Button and Lewis had a sit-down chat and answered questions. One question was about Alonso and Lewis correctly said that Alonso was the biggest challenge for everyone to overcome that season because he was so strong a driver. He was right. But that statement is different from the kind of statement Prost made about Gilles (which is in my signature, btw). It's that second kind of statement I'm referring to when I say Gilles, Senna and Clark were so far above the rest....and that we havent seen their like since Senna.

I disagree with prost. That's just a beautiful one liner, but whoevr missed the battles between Schumi and Alonso (and you can add Lewis vs Nando or Lewis vs Button or any other you see fit) is really too blinded by the past to enjoy nowadays racing. Doctor's orders: watch EVERY single race from EVERY sngle season from Senna and Villeneuve. Then watch 2005, 2006, 2007, maybe even 2008 and certainly 2010. Soak up every dull moment of the past, watch dispassionately every great battle from the present (past) decade. Tell me if really they are so far away. I think Senna is still away. I wouldn't be so sure about Gilles. Again, a matter of tatse.

We agree to disagree here, but only just, because I know you enjoy nowadays racing even if you are an incurable romantic :P

That's about as ridiculous as saying that you don't feel like you can comment on, or believe, anything unless you've experienced it firsthand.

I feared that part would be the one that would get misunderstood so this is my bad and I'm sorry. What I meant was that when I, Andres a.k.a. Quiet One, comment on Senna and Gilles, that opinion has one weight and coloration because I experience them racing whereas when I give an opinion on drivers from earlier eras I would give an opinion based more on what I read that on what I've seen. Just stating two different kinds of opinions to give my words a proper context. You can give an opinion on Obama's personality. You can give an opinion on Napoleon's personality. Both could be equaly informed and valid, but one will have the added value of personal experience. That was the context in which I tried to place my "overhyped" mention on Clark.

Final word: no need to get so frustrated. Nobody is being argumentative for the sake of it. At least I wasn't actually disagreeing that much with you.

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Really? Do you really doubt that Jim Clark pulled so far ahead of his rivals at races that they were amazed at it? This is proven in lap times and first-hand observations (in that book I linked for starters) Jody Scheckter, and others, commented multiple times of Gilles seemingly unearthly car control and ability to drive so much faster than everyone else, especially in the rain. Ditto for Senna. A myriad of books, written by people that have quoted rivals, team owners, engineers, fans, looked at telemetry and lap times and race results, are out there to be found. You ask for proof, well look to those books. They are written about those drivers in such abundance because of the very fact that they *were* so far above the rest. I would think that obvious. Also do you really expect me to list off quotes from those for you? That's absurd.

So on my side of this are the authors of countless books, team owners and fellow drivers. Remind me again, who's on your side?

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Sorry, my post wasn't all that clear. In that post I wasn't disagreeing with the idea that Schumacher comes closest to those drivers that "demonstrated an ability to utterly dominate their competition, even in cars that weren't light-years ahead of their rivals". I was just disagreeing with the idea that Alonso's remark has any relation to that (I think it was probably a mind game, meaningless, or as QO suggested, something for his fans).

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