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Kopite Girl

Jenson Button

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Sorry, my post wasn't all that clear. In that post I wasn't disagreeing with the idea that Schumacher comes closest to those drivers that "demonstrated an ability to utterly dominate their competition, even in cars that weren't light-years ahead of their rivals". I was just disagreeing with the idea that Alonso's remark has any relation to that (I think it was probably a mind game, meaningless, or as QO suggested, something for his fans).

I think you and dribs are right about that.

Oh, Andres, sorry for missing what you meant in your post. I'm full of p**s 'n vinegar today. My bad.

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I think you and dribs are right about that.

Oh, Andres, sorry for missing what you meant in your post. I'm full of p**s 'n vinegar today. My bad.

No harm done. Guess we old TF1 timers still enjoy getting into a forums equivalent of a bar brawl every now and then only to stop at some moment, our bruised faces bearing a tired smile and drink our sorrows away with a pat on the back :)

If in need of a pair of ears to listen I'm here.

Unless it is about that good-for-nothing paid driver we all know Gilles was :P (btw, Gilles is probably 3rd or 4th in my all times top list :lol:)

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Really? Do you really doubt that Jim Clark pulled so far ahead of his rivals at races that they were amazed at it? This is proven in lap times and first-hand observations (in that book I linked for starters) Jody Scheckter, and others, commented multiple times of Gilles seemingly unearthly car control and ability to drive so much faster than everyone else, especially in the rain. Ditto for Senna. A myriad of books, written by people that have quoted rivals, team owners, engineers, fans, looked at telemetry and lap times and race results, are out there to be found. You ask for proof, well look to those books. They are written about those drivers in such abundance because of the very fact that they *were* so far above the rest. I would think that obvious. Also do you really expect me to list off quotes from those for you? That's absurd.

So on my side of this are the authors of countless books, team owners and fellow drivers. Remind me again, who's on your side?

Lewis, British Grand Prix, 2009. Vettel,2008, Torro Rosso win in the rain. Way ahead. Ahead enough for it to draw comparison with anything Clark did. Do people bleat on about it? No. Thing is, like Gilles, Jim got killed. Funny thing happens when people die in tragic circumstances; opinions get distorted by blurry eyed individuals.

Jim and Gilles were mighty. But there are exmaples of similarly great drives happening right now. It's just not romantic enough for some to see it that way.

No one's on my side and I don't need them to put forward an opinion. The only time I would need a library of evidence is if I were trying to prove a fact. I'm not trying to prove a fact, I'm trying to have a balanced debate. No one would write a book called 'Were Jim and Gilles overrated because they died?' It may well be that if such a book were written that it would conclude they were not overrated, that their talents were mighty and they really were streets ahead of their rivals. It would be nice to read such a book though, would make a refreshing change. It might even make the point that drivers like Gilles and Jim may not have been remembered so fondly had they lived longer. Their deaths preserved their legacies. What would people be saying about Schumacher now if he had been killed in 2004, as opposed to what some are saying now? Give that some proper thought.

Too many people take the opinions of others as their own opinions, then claim to be some sort of authority themselves. True objectivity allows you to question the opinions of others, even authoratitive figures and maybe ask if rose tinted spectacles were worn.

And I most definitely echo Andres and George; I wouldn't be sat up at 1.30am with many others to debate my favourite sport.

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I got this idea from Caesar making a joke in the Massa thread.

Now we all know that i'm an absolutely nutty, totally dizzy and completely biased Buttonite. But I will try to be objective and look at it from all angles. My bias shall be left at the door.

Before I can answer this myself, I'd like to hear what you all think. Can Button win the championship again, at McLaren with Hamilton as his team mate?

Discuss.

Sure. Why not?

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No, he's not good enough.

He's just Prost type of driver, witch isn't worth that much today (without the fastest car) as you need actual speed and car wrestling skills.

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No, he's not good enough.

He's just Prost type of driver, witch isn't worth that much today (without the fastest car) as you need actual speed and car wrestling skills.

Alain Marie Pascal Prost, OBE, Chevalier de la Légion d'honneur is a quadruple WDC winner. He has has won more titles than any driver except for Juan Manuel Fangio and Michael Schumacher. Jens will be thrilled with the comparison, I'm sure.

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Lewis, British Grand Prix, 2009. Vettel,2008, Torro Rosso win in the rain. Way ahead. Ahead enough for it to draw comparison with anything Clark did. Do people bleat on about it? No. Thing is, like Gilles, Jim got killed. Funny thing happens when people die in tragic circumstances; opinions get distorted by blurry eyed individuals.

Jim and Gilles were mighty. But there are exmaples of similarly great drives happening right now. It's just not romantic enough for some to see it that way.

No one's on my side and I don't need them to put forward an opinion. The only time I would need a library of evidence is if I were trying to prove a fact. I'm not trying to prove a fact, I'm trying to have a balanced debate. No one would write a book called 'Were Jim and Gilles overrated because they died?' It may well be that if such a book were written that it would conclude they were not overrated, that their talents were mighty and they really were streets ahead of their rivals. It would be nice to read such a book though, would make a refreshing change. It might even make the point that drivers like Gilles and Jim may not have been remembered so fondly had they lived longer. Their deaths preserved their legacies. What would people be saying about Schumacher now if he had been killed in 2004, as opposed to what some are saying now? Give that some proper thought.

Too many people take the opinions of others as their own opinions, then claim to be some sort of authority themselves. True objectivity allows you to question the opinions of others, even authoratitive figures and maybe ask if rose tinted spectacles were worn.

And I most definitely echo Andres and George; I wouldn't be sat up at 1.30am with many others to debate my favourite sport.

Lewis's British GP win was 2008 (sorry to nitpick) :P. I would also add his 2007 Fuji drive to that list, as well as Michael's '96 Barcelona drive.

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Lewis's British GP win was 2008 (sorry to nitpick) :P. I would also add his 2007 Fuji drive to that list, as well as Michael's '96 Barcelona drive.

My mistake, apologies.

Listing Michael's dominant drives is not relevant here. I was making the point that the likes of Lewis and Vettel are as good, relative to their competition as Gilles and Jim were to theirs.

Mike and I both agree that Michael was dominant over his contemporaries.

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We await the coming of........someone.

If one considers how fast and with what car he took his first victory, how old he is and how fast he's arrived and been champion...

The way, under heavy and total pressure at times, but also by what margins he got some of his poles.

Reasonably one assumes he can only get better. So I'm afraid the F1 world might have stumbled onto something pretty big with Vettel.

If he is as structured intellectually as germans have the reputation/image of being... I don't particularly like, or not like for that matter, the guy, I have no heroes but feeling is this could be another domination period for the next 2?3?4? years especially if Newey remains motivated and produces a half decent car since RB has locked him up for awhile.

Hamilton could have been a candidate also but he is THE race driver dreams are made of for entertainment during races. He has unfortunately? the faults of his strong points, I don't believe he is a championship man. Unless he progresses to better control his temper in the heat of the action, which I believe Vettel seems to have the capacity of learning, he will stay a bloody exciting racer to watch. Is this what one would want from him though, one who still is one of the biggest legends of the sport is Gilles Villeneuve who also wasn't a championship guy.

I'd also have an eye out for Kobayashi if he is able to steer the development of his car, or obtain somehow, a front grid car. When you consider like the other rookies of his generation he doesn't have that much track time, what he is doing I feel is quite outstanding. For all his "spectacularness" yet doesn't put others in peril and stays on track.

Kubica? Nah. The last season with BMW showed he is good only when motivated with a good car. Real legends can overcome that.

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Going by the last few races of '10, Jenson (by his own admittance) copied Lewis's quali set-up and qualified a whit behind him. The last race showed virtually no difference between the two. If he gets the hang of set-up & makes the Pirellis last the way he can, he could win another WDC. But he has to pray that Lewis in turn doesn't learn to preserve tires!

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If one considers how fast and with what car he took his first victory, how old he is and how fast he's arrived and been champion...

The way, under heavy and total pressure at times, but also by what margins he got some of his poles.

Reasonably one assumes he can only get better. So I'm afraid the F1 world might have stumbled onto something pretty big with Vettel.

If he is as structured intellectually as germans have the reputation/image of being... I don't particularly like, or not like for that matter, the guy, I have no heroes but feeling is this could be another domination period for the next 2?3?4? years especially if Newey remains motivated and produces a half decent car since RB has locked him up for awhile.

Hamilton could have been a candidate also but he is THE race driver dreams are made of for entertainment during races. He has unfortunately? the faults of his strong points, I don't believe he is a championship man. Unless he progresses to better control his temper in the heat of the action, which I believe Vettel seems to have the capacity of learning, he will stay a bloody exciting racer to watch. Is this what one would want from him though, one who still is one of the biggest legends of the sport is Gilles Villeneuve who also wasn't a championship guy.

I'd also have an eye out for Kobayashi if he is able to steer the development of his car, or obtain somehow, a front grid car. When you consider like the other rookies of his generation he doesn't have that much track time, what he is doing I feel is quite outstanding. For all his "spectacularness" yet doesn't put others in peril and stays on track.

Kubica? Nah. The last season with BMW showed he is good only when motivated with a good car. Real legends can overcome that.

u left out Kimi :D

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[quote name='BradSpeedMan' timestamp='1296326719' post='329610']
u left out Kimi :D
[/quote]

I didn't notice he was missing. A bit like the grid last year.

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I didn't notice he was missing. A bit like the grid last year.

true :D But if you u'de think of the last 7 years and thought of someone who's naturally gifted but not a championship man, it will be probably Kimi. Like Gilles Villeneuve mentioned :D

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Going by the last few races of '10, Jenson (by his own admittance) copied Lewis's quali set-up and qualified a whit behind him. The last race showed virtually no difference between the two. If he gets the hang of set-up & makes the Pirellis last the way he can, he could win another WDC. But he has to pray that Lewis in turn doesn't learn to preserve tires!

Hopefully, Jenson will get Jakob Andreasen back this year. Paddy Lowe is a very skilful guy but he's no race engineer. I am surprised Shov didn't get the call. It could be Jakob got dumped after JB's great start to the season. It's just odd that there was no news on the subject from anyone at Woking nor Jenson. Weird! Jens is a great driver but he could never set up a car. Most good drivers can't and never could.

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It could be Jakob got dumped after JB's great start to the season.

Isn't it because he had a virus?

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Isn't it because he had a virus?

Apparently. Maybe he will return. He seemed to have a major influence on JB.

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Lewis, British Grand Prix, 2009. Vettel,2008, Torro Rosso win in the rain. Way ahead. Ahead enough for it to draw comparison with anything Clark did. Do people bleat on about it? No. Thing is, like Gilles, Jim got killed. Funny thing happens when people die in tragic circumstances; opinions get distorted by blurry eyed individuals.

Jim and Gilles were mighty. But there are exmaples of similarly great drives happening right now. It's just not romantic enough for some to see it that way.

What this proves is that perhaps it's too soon in their careers to be comparing them to the greats. All drivers have a few good drives. The difference is we have a starting and ending point for Gilles, Clark and Senna.

No one's on my side and I don't need them to put forward an opinion. The only time I would need a library of evidence is if I were trying to prove a fact. I'm not trying to prove a fact, I'm trying to have a balanced debate. No one would write a book called 'Were Jim and Gilles overrated because they died?' It may well be that if such a book were written that it would conclude they were not overrated, that their talents were mighty and they really were streets ahead of their rivals. It would be nice to read such a book though, would make a refreshing change. It might even make the point that drivers like Gilles and Jim may not have been remembered so fondly had they lived longer. Their deaths preserved their legacies. What would people be saying about Schumacher now if he had been killed in 2004, as opposed to what some are saying now? Give that some proper thought.

No, you don't need anything to put forward an opinion. You *do* need something more than just you to put forward a *correct* opinion. My opinion is based on quite a lot of written evidence. First-hand experiences. Timing sheets and, later, telemetry. Also, consider that dying in F1 didn't make anyone's 'legacy'. Tragic, yes, but the quality of their driving and the fact that they were *miles* better than their contemporaries in life made their death all the more notable. You place emphasis on death as to why they are remembered as 'great' where you should be looking to their life.

Too many people take the opinions of others as their own opinions, then claim to be some sort of authority themselves. True objectivity allows you to question the opinions of others, even authoratitive figures and maybe ask if rose tinted spectacles were worn.

If I mention that I derive my opinions about Jim Clarks driving prowess from the many books I have read and film clipping I have seen, doesn't that give my opinions more authority? It seems perfectly logical to form one's opinions based on past evidence, does it not? If not, then we must question all of our opinions because they all are derived from past experiences. We stand on the shoulders of giants, I believe.

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Miles better is another way of saying that the average and backmarker drivers were miles worse. Or at least their cars were.

I don't get this "it's easier these days " B* when you consider the talent an completions for the kart stage.

When the hell did a pre-teen J. Clark had to beat in karts other kids form Japan or Brazil or Russia or wherever to progress further ?!

Then start all over again at the next ladder series stage.

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Back to the original topic, yes I think Jenson can win another championship but he would need the Mclaren to be the fastest car out there and drastically improve his qualifying performance if he wants to beat Lewis.

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Back to the original topic, yes I think Jenson can win another championship but he would need the Mclaren to be the fastest car out there and drastically improve his qualifying performance if he wants to beat Lewis.

So not much then, just a miracle. If he wins another title, I'll eat my nappy.

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So not much then, just a miracle. If he wins another title, I'll eat my nappy.

I'd stock up on a lot of antibiotics and calpol if I were you. :P

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I'd stock up on a lot of antibiotics and calpol if I were you. :P

Nah, by the time Button might win another title, I'll be at school and he'll be commentating with a babbling Murray-esque Brundle.

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Nah, by the time Button might win another title, I'll be at school and he'll be commentating with a babbling Murray-esque Brundle.

Young man. Though Hamilton is arguably the fastest driver in F1 currently, Jenson is not far behind his team mate's pace and he is, without doubt the most intelligent pedlar out there IMHO. The new car is stunning and innovative and a switch to Pirellis will favour Button's campaign this year. Winning a second WDC is no easy thing but he is the man I have my money on to do it. It is his time. Last year was too early and now he has all he needs to go again. Whether they be Pampers or the old-fashioned towelling kind, nappies WILL be on your menu, my son - mark my words.naughty.gif

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Nah, by the time Button might win another title, I'll be at school and he'll be commentating with a babbling Murray-esque Brundle.

For your sake, I hope its a school for one. I don't think a thirty-seven almost thirty-eight year old in nappies would be taken kindly to. ;)

If Button never wins another title for the remainder of his career, i'll breast feed you myself.

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