Has F1 Lost Its Marbles?

[Quiet One 15]

I didn't have the chance of watching any footage from the testings but I've read many comments about the quantity of marbles left behind. If true, it means yet another "hey, I have this simple solution to make F1 more exciting!" and then just coming up with something that was dropped a couple of years ago precisely because everybody felt it didn't help overtaking.

No more overtaking? Let's enforce less pitstops so cars are obliged to overtake on track. Still no overtaking? Hey, no problem, lets enforce more pitstops so the cars can use different strategies and overtake each other, where's my paycheck?

Now it all came to tire degradation as the elyxir of eternal youth. And guess what? Marbles are back. Anybody recall a few years ago a race in Montreal where cars couldn't move more than an inch outside the racing line without having a catastrophic crash? (JV remembers it well). That is what we might face in a track littered with marbles.

So...what now? Bring back Ralf? One lap qualifying runs? No problem. Next year we will ban KERS again, moveable wings and make afro hairdos mandatory. THAT will fix things once and for all.

[dribbler 6]

Solitaire drivers, draughts from the wings, marbles on the track, poker style test times; board games.

[Caesar 0]

maybe to put a machine gun on every car and allow them to us it only on sthraight, with car in front allowed to change driving lines as many time as necessary to survive

[DOF_power 0]

I didn't have the chance of watching any footage from the testings but I've read many comments about the quantity of marbles left behind. If true, it means yet another "hey, I have this simple solution to make F1 more exciting!" and then just coming up with something that was dropped a couple of years ago precisely because everybody felt it didn't help overtaking.

No more overtaking? Let's enforce less pitstops so cars are obliged to overtake on track. Still no overtaking? Hey, no problem, lets enforce more pitstops so the cars can use different strategies and overtake each other, where's my paycheck?

Now it all came to tire degradation as the elyxir of eternal youth. And guess what? Marbles are back. Anybody recall a few years ago a race in Montreal where cars couldn't move more than an inch outside the racing line without having a catastrophic crash? (JV remembers it well). That is what we might face in a track littered with marbles.

So...what now? Bring back Ralf? One lap qualifying runs? No problem. Next year we will ban KERS again, moveable wings and make afro hairdos mandatory. THAT will fix things once and for all.

It's been like this for a long long time.

The 1982 season was the last one were overtaking was (reasonably) possible in a competitive environment.

Even since the chicanes and wings came along in the late 60s early-mid 70s F1 got f***ed up more and more.

The turbos, ground-effects and tire war of early 80s made thing interesting again for a brief period.

You cannot have nearly the same aero, same engines, same tire compounds with same strategy and chicanised tracks, blocking drivers and expect overtaking.

[dribbler 6]

maybe to put a machine gun on every car and allow them to us it only on sthraight, with car in front allowed to change driving lines as many time as necessary to survive

Don't be ridiculous, that would be very dangerous. Just allow 27 moves per straight.

[Quiet One 15]

Let's see:

Now we have those rear wing thingies that Race Control activates when cars are within 600 meters or 1 second from each other on some designated zones we don't know yet and...I'm not sure I even got that one right. Plus KERS that can only be activated on straights for brief periods of time under certain circumstances as well.

So, basically, we will have a huge number of complicated, convoluted rules to justify both the lack of overtaking and take away from any actual, bonafide good overtaking move we might witness by mistake, plus tires that will turn the track into a narrow line. Not to mention endless commentaries trying to clarify what we are watching only to confuse us even more.

Compare it with the simple, beautiful, perfectly understandable solution Ferrari came with last season to improve overtaking:

"Alonso is faster than you"

[DOF_power 0]

Movable wings were used before in the late 60s. The very first wings were in effect movable (via a pedal); but movable aero was banned in 69.

K.E.R.S. is basically the new turbo boost adjustment switch (as N. Mansell pointed out). Since fuel was limited in the 84-88 era the adjustment of the boost was limited as well. That's why Rosberg kept running out of fuel, because he push-to-pass constantly and use all the fuel.

And team orders were in GP racing since day one.

So nothing new under the sun.

[Max Mosley 2]

Well, like I always say, it's inevitable that you have convoluted rules if you want both a good show and innovation. The teams' interests are best served by making their cars difficult to overtake so of course they will do that, if you give them the freedom to innovate. This is like having a capitalist economy but hoping that no entrepreneur will do anything to make him more money than anyone else - you'd need some fancy rules to make that work too!

[Rainmaster 7]

Let's see:

Now we have those rear wing thingies that Race Control activates when cars are within 600 meters or 1 second from each other on some designated zones we don't know yet and...I'm not sure I even got that one right. Plus KERS that can only be activated on straights for brief periods of time under certain circumstances as well.

So, basically, we will have a huge number of complicated, convoluted rules to justify both the lack of overtaking and take away from any actual, bonafide good overtaking move we might witness by mistake, plus tires that will turn the track into a narrow line. Not to mention endless commentaries trying to clarify what we are watching only to confuse us even more.

Compare it with the simple, beautiful, perfectly understandable solution Ferrari came with last season to improve overtaking:

"Alonso is faster than you"

So wait, are you saying we need more Felipe Massa's to aid overtaking? Please, no!

But yes, the cars aren't the only things which go in circles when it comes to F1. I'll wait until I see a few races before I make any judgements.

[JHS 1]

You give an example of Canada. But guess what? The previous Canadian Grand Prix have most likely been up there for candidates of the best races of the season. Just look at last year's race. Hugely exciting, strategy was a key element due to tyre degredation.

I applaud Pirelli for trying to improve the show. I don't want to see Borestones that can last 100000000000 laps. And looking at the stint times cars have been turning at the previous two tests, it is evident the tyres are graining and we'll see exciting racing again. Jenson certainly seems to think so.

If drivers don't like it - go race in some other series then.

I generally don't understand where you are coming from. People criticised the action this year for being too boring as there wasn't much overtaking happening, and when attempts are made to try to improve overtaking, you still aren't happy.

[freaky2 1]

But if it's true that they won't be able to stray from the line because of danger of crashing (I can't attest to that, my memory doesn't have much F1 info stored) then it's bad instead of good. What seems plausible is that they will constantly stay on the rubbered lane because the loss of traction/speed will be too great if you try another trajectory, and that would hinder overtaking at least a bit.

But, as I always say, we should take a look at how it works first...

[Caesar 0]

great news, F1 has found its marbels

[JHS 1]

But if it's true that they won't be able to stray from the line because of danger of crashing (I can't attest to that, my memory doesn't have much F1 info stored) then it's bad instead of good. What seems plausible is that they will constantly stay on the rubbered lane because the loss of traction/speed will be too great if you try another trajectory, and that would hinder overtaking at least a bit.

But, as I always say, we should take a look at how it works first...

F1 has always had marbles. Like in 2005, when tyre changing was banned. That still produced some cracking racing though, so personally I don't see what all the fuss is about.

They're racing drivers. 'Course they are going to have a go if there's even half a chance there.

[Argento Reloaded 1]

no worry, be happy... Pirelli guys will make our life more fun and driver´s life much more difficult! It seems the tyres will last for 2 laps -with high temps- before to lost a second per lap for the rest 8; then a tape recorder starts and tell the driver the tyres will self destroy in 2 minutes starting the countdown... The FIA is considering the 2 ninutes time me because in some tracks Lotus, Hispania and Virgin won´t reach the pits in 2 minutes... but despite the minor details will see more Mansell-Australia-1987-like races.

[AleHop 0]

What's the problem with Marbles? We need Marbles, we all need Marbles. If you don't like Marbles you... No, you can't no like Marbles, right? In case you don't like Marbles you should stop whinging and moaning and screaming and... You can drive your own life with Marbles, that's all.

[dribbler 6]

Stop saying marbles.

[Quiet One 15]

You give an example of Canada. But guess what? The previous Canadian Grand Prix have most likely been up there for candidates of the best races of the season. Just look at last year's race. Hugely exciting, strategy was a key element due to tyre degredation.

I applaud Pirelli for trying to improve the show. I don't want to see Borestones that can last 100000000000 laps. And looking at the stint times cars have been turning at the previous two tests, it is evident the tyres are graining and we'll see exciting racing again. Jenson certainly seems to think so.

If drivers don't like it - go race in some other series then.

I generally don't understand where you are coming from. People criticised the action this year for being too boring as there wasn't much overtaking happening, and when attempts are made to try to improve overtaking, you still aren't happy.

Interesting way of missing the whole point.

It's not about the drivers liking or not liking it. I was just voicing my concern over the fact that tire degradation means not only a drop in performance but means lots of marbles.

IF (and this "if" is because it was just my concern over some comments, I already said I didn't watch any of the testings) the amount of marbles is really that great, then whether the racers are being paid or not, whether they are men enough or not doesn't change the situation a bit. They are rational beings. Rational beings do not move off the line to race over marbles which means immediate loss of control of the car the same way they would not race on purpose over huge oil pools. They will stick to the racing line and you will have boring races.

If (again) that happens, then it would show imprevision from the organisers yet again. You cannot just say "Last year everybody was complaining racing was boring" as if that would be a good enough excuse on why are they using a non-satisfactory solution. If people complained about boring races last season (not, me, I was one of the few to make it clear that it was one of the best in history meanwhile others where just posting cheap digs at some fans) then bring just any change is not the same as coming up with an actual solution. Previously people complained about overtaking at pitstops taking much of the fun from the track. They tried to diminish the impact of pitstops. That didn't work. Obviously the problem wasn't in the pitstops per se.

Cars not being able to make full use of the wider tracks to overtake is one of the obvious problems in F1. You can land an Hercules plane across many Tilke tracks, yet cars cannot overtake each other because cars are too aerodynamically sensitive. Can't stay behind another due to dirty air, cant make good use of drafting, cant move out of the line...

All I said so far is pretty obvious and has been brought up many times. So I don't understand where YOU are coming from.

[dribbler 6]

Interesting way of missing the whole point.

It's not about the drivers liking or not liking it. I was just voicing my concern over the fact that tire degradation means not only a drop in performance but means lots of marbles.

IF (and this "if" is because it was just my concern over some comments, I already said I didn't watch any of the testings) the amount of marbles is really that great, then whether the racers are being paid or not, whether they are men enough or not doesn't change the situation a bit. They are rational beings. Rational beings do not move off the line to race over marbles which means immediate loss of control of the car the same way they would not race on purpose over huge oil pools. They will stick to the racing line and you will have boring races.

If (again) that happens, then it would show imprevision from the organisers yet again. You cannot just say "Last year everybody was complaining racing was boring" as if that would be a good enough excuse on why are they using a non-satisfactory solution. If people complained about boring races last season (not, me, I was one of the few to make it clear that it was one of the best in history meanwhile others where just posting cheap digs at some fans) then bring just any change is not the same as coming up with an actual solution. Previously people complained about overtaking at pitstops taking much of the fun from the track. They tried to diminish the impact of pitstops. That didn't work. Obviously the problem wasn't in the pitstops per se.

Cars not being able to make full use of the wider tracks to overtake is one of the obvious problems in F1. You can land an Hercules plane across many Tilke tracks, yet cars cannot overtake each other because cars are too aerodynamically sensitive. Can't stay behind another due to dirty air, cant make good use of drafting, cant move out of the line...

All I said so far is pretty obvious and has been brought up many times. So I don't understand where YOU are coming from.

Yep and yep. It's not as though a driver is going to arrive and say "hey, driving on marbles is fine, you're all pussies". Although Hamilton made many drivers have a re-think about the whole 'overtaking aint possible mate' argument when he arrived on the scene, you can't make the impossible, possible. Makes me laugh when forum idiots suggest that drivers aren't up to it. They are the ones on the ground, not us. The FIA et al would do well to listen to them; not create hair brain flappy wings and power boost buttons. Put Tilke up against a wall too, while we're at it.

Would love it if the wave of reform sweeping the world right now were to filter down onto the Bahrain grid. How about drivers smashing up garages, raping grid girls and burning Tilke n' Toad effigies whilst shouting 'GIVE US SKINNY WINGS AND BIGGER ENGINES!'.

No? Just me then....

[JHS 1]

Tyre degredation WILL improve the racing. Aero isn't the be-all and end all. Cars ran incredibly close to each other at Montreal where coincidentally, tyre degredation is high. Drivers say it'll improve the show and there hasn't been a massive problem in testing when guys are sometimes turning in considerably more laps than in races. F1 will be just fine.

There's always the jenny-downers who seemingly like to give a bleak outlook on the future of F1. Like after Bahrain, everyone was writing the sport off. Then guess what? We had one of the most closely fought championships in living memory. Yeah, F1's in real bad shape, isn't it? I'm amazed people always like to look on the negative side of the sport instead of looking at the many, many good points.

[Caesar 0]

Yep and yep. It's not as though a driver is going to arrive and say "hey, driving on marbles is fine, you're all pussies". Although Hamilton made many drivers have a re-think about the whole 'overtaking aint possible mate' argument when he arrived on the scene, you can't make the impossible, possible. Makes me laugh when forum idiots suggest that drivers aren't up to it. They are the ones on the ground, not us. The FIA et al would do well to listen to them; not create hair brain flappy wings and power boost buttons. Put Tilke up against a wall too, while we're at it.

Would love it if the wave of reform sweeping the world right now were to filter down onto the Bahrain grid. How about drivers smashing up garages, raping grid girls and burning Tilke n' Toad effigies whilst shouting 'GIVE US SKINNY WINGS AND BIGGER ENGINES!'.

No? Just me then....

well, i have heard a lot worse ideas...

maybe they should allow them to put brushes on front wings to get rid of marbels

[dribbler 6]

Luckily, drivers screwed up. That's why we had a good 2010. Had nothing much to do with the cars. If the drivers had been as boringly efficient as the cars, we would have had a season of Bahrains.

Summarizing Andres' point; I think he's saying what I think too; I want to see who can manage tyres, but not bits of rubber laying on the track, effectively restricting choice of line. No idiot is going to drive on them. That's where your show gets ruined; effectively a car's width of usable track.

[Quiet One 15]

Luckily, drivers screwed up. That's why we had a good 2010. Had nothing much to do with the cars. If the drivers had been as boringly efficient as the cars, we would have had a season of Bahrains.

Summarizing Andres' point; I think he's saying what I think too; I want to see who can manage tyres, but not bits of rubber laying on the track, effectively restricting choice of line. No idiot is going to drive on them. That's where your show gets ruined; effectively a car's width of usable track.

Yup. That.

Edit: added marbles.

[Kopite Girl 0]

Raping grid girls or any girl isn't funny, even if it was just a point being made and don't care who you are. Just something I feel strongly about. Back to subject.

[Caesar 0]

Ok! Back to subject.Here is despair of Rubens over lost marbles and Vettel trying to find it.

[dribbler 6]

Raping grid girls or any girl isn't funny, even if it was just a point being made and don't care who you are. Just something I feel strongly about. Back to subject.

Insensitive. Apologies. x