Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted March 10, 2011 Seems like people can barely even agree on the causes of the overtaking problem (if you even agree that there is a problem) so we probably shouldn't be surprised the FIA have struggled to deal with it (jumping from one rule to another). It's not an easy issue. What is probably needed is a consultation of engineers from the teams, the opinion of independent engineers, track designers/circuit owners, and most certainly the drivers (who are hardly ever consulted), to find the right direction for progress in that area. Personally I believe the issue is technical (the turbulent air produced by the cars), and circumstantial (the design of the tracks), that is to say that those are the two biggest factors acting on overtaking chances. The evidence for that comes from the drivers and engineers, who often complain about the wake encountered when following another car closely, and by the difference in overtaking, in the same cars, from some tracks to others (Monaco/Hungary to Spa/Canada/Monza). Technical problems need a technical solution and standardising certain aspects of the rear end of the cars may be the easiest way forward even if unpopular with some (..of course advances in braking capability play a great role too, but I think those advances cannot be undone/limited as easily as placing restrictions on aero). Standardising certain parts of the rear of the car would certainly be much simpler than introducing elements such as moveable wings and KERS systems for example (and far cheaper, too). The problem of the tracks is arguably easier to solve by looking at the features of tracks which are conducive to overtaking and the features of tracks which are not. I think some commonality would be found. These ideas would at least be my starting point. On the issue of the drivers and overtaking: I don't believe drivers are the limiting factor. If they were so concerned with playing for points, how come we see such large variations in overtaking from some tracks to others? When overtaking is achievable, we see plenty of it. Overtaking is track and car limited, not driver limited. Of course it is clear that some drivers are better at overtaking than others but that is a natural thing which will always have been the case historically , and it shouldn't be confused with something like aero/track issues which are developments (i.e. drivers are simple creatures and have not evolved since the 50's, 60's, etc, on the other hand car design and track design has certainly changed). What this means to me is that you can place limits or rules on such developments in aero or track design and they will have some effect on overtaking, whereas trying to regulate something natural, like a drivers' natural ability and inclination to overtake, is extremely difficult; which is why changing a points system, by adding medals for example, would not make any difference whatsoever to how much overtaking you saw (although it may well reward those drivers who are naturally better at overtaking anyway). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4 Report post Posted March 10, 2011 Putting on my rose tinted specs for a mo, I couldn't help thinking back to 70s/80s for me probably one of the best eras for F1 in terms of spectator action. And more overtaking. So what was different? - Aero playing a less significant role - More mechanical grip - More cars in the field - Less reliability (mixed things up a bit) - Slicks with no pit stops for fuelling - Cars not designed to completely muller the performance of the car following - Turbos - Active suspension - Max Mosely not as president *yay* - Less rules - More tracks with longer straights and faster corners - Much less sponsorship More dangerous, yes, but maybe in this era of megabucks, megarules, etc there was more passing, cars drifting on corners, cars conking out - mixing up field, more back markers to negotiate causing overtaking opportunities, etc, etc Perhaps F1 needs to revisit some of these? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yurp 0 Report post Posted March 11, 2011 Can you all stop posting lengthy intelligent posts. It is ruining my scope to just butt in and say stuff like 'knickers, c0ck and jock strap'. never Seems like people can barely even agree on the causes of the overtaking problem (if you even agree that there is a problem) so we probably shouldn't be surprised the FIA have struggled to deal with it (jumping from one rule to another). It's not an easy issue. What is probably needed is a consultation of engineers from the teams, the opinion of independent engineers, track designers/circuit owners, and most certainly the drivers (who are hardly ever consulted), to find the right direction for progress in that area. Personally I believe the issue is technical (the turbulent air produced by the cars), and circumstantial (the design of the tracks), that is to say that those are the two biggest factors acting on overtaking chances. The evidence for that comes from the drivers and engineers, who often complain about the wake encountered when following another car closely, and by the difference in overtaking, in the same cars, from some tracks to others (Monaco/Hungary to Spa/Canada/Monza). Technical problems need a technical solution and standardising certain aspects of the rear end of the cars may be the easiest way forward even if unpopular with some (..of course advances in braking capability play a great role too, but I think those advances cannot be undone/limited as easily as placing restrictions on aero). Standardising certain parts of the rear of the car would certainly be much simpler than introducing elements such as moveable wings and KERS systems for example (and far cheaper, too). The problem of the tracks is arguably easier to solve by looking at the features of tracks which are conducive to overtaking and the features of tracks which are not. I think some commonality would be found. These ideas would at least be my starting point. On the issue of the drivers and overtaking: I don't believe drivers are the limiting factor. If they were so concerned with playing for points, how come we see such large variations in overtaking from some tracks to others? When overtaking is achievable, we see plenty of it. Overtaking is track and car limited, not driver limited. Of course it is clear that some drivers are better at overtaking than others but that is a natural thing which will always have been the case historically , and it shouldn't be confused with something like aero/track issues which are developments (i.e. drivers are simple creatures and have not evolved since the 50's, 60's, etc, on the other hand car design and track design has certainly changed). What this means to me is that you can place limits or rules on such developments in aero or track design and they will have some effect on overtaking, whereas trying to regulate something natural, like a drivers' natural ability and inclination to overtake, is extremely difficult; which is why changing a points system, by adding medals for example, would not make any difference whatsoever to how much overtaking you saw (although it may well reward those drivers who are naturally better at overtaking anyway). good post. and actually my thinking is that the lack of overtaking isn't as big an issue as everyone seems to think. it just seems to be the latest gripe/thing the FIA want to fixate on in order to justify themselves and their overflowing rulebook. EDIT - To my mind standardisation as an answer to problems caused by standardisation will be the death of F1. It's like a cancer creeping slowly through every garage and over every car season by season. Putting on my rose tinted specs for a mo, I couldn't help thinking back to 70s/80s for me probably one of the best eras for F1 in terms of spectator action. And more overtaking. So what was different? - Aero playing a less significant role - More mechanical grip - More cars in the field - Less reliability (mixed things up a bit) - Slicks with no pit stops for fuelling - Cars not designed to completely muller the performance of the car following - Turbos - Active suspension - Max Mosely not as president *yay* - Less rules - More tracks with longer straights and faster corners - Much less sponsorship More dangerous, yes, but maybe in this era of megabucks, megarules, etc there was more passing, cars drifting on corners, cars conking out - mixing up field, more back markers to negotiate causing overtaking opportunities, etc, etc Perhaps F1 needs to revisit some of these? I missed you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
