Vettel'S Lead Over Webber In Final Qualifying.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Already pretty much all the f1 news sites are tilting their articles towards the notion that Webber has somehow been shafted by the "drinks company". Few if any take the approach Vettel simply did better than Webber. And going over Webbers comments afterwards, then looking for double meanings or thinking he's speaking in code.

It's far too early in the season for this rubbish. Where is the same supposed outcry or undertones of team favoritism concerning Hamilton beating Button? Rosberg beating Schumi? Nope don't see it.

So just because Vettel beat Webber by a large margin, that can only mean there's something more sinister at play? For the love of God, at least give us a few races before this game of twisting words, and making things up occurs.

[Kopite Girl 0]

Well said.

For my part, I read the title of your thread and thought that it was going to be one of those comments you've just described. I'll admit you surprised me there, and in a good way too. I've had a few rather heated discussions with your good self but I think I can get where you come from. I didn't get the opportunity to thank you for your kind heartfelt words previously, so thank you. It meant a lot to me.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Hey Steph, glad you felt better after our last discussion

There's so much buck passing in the game of F1, and the subsequent other game of "reporting" F1 news. Alonso didn't do so well, Hamilton did better than he had hoped, and Vettel did about as good as I thought he'd do. If there is anyone at fault, it's the f1 news people for twisting this crap, and when you get down to it, Webber for whatever reason. Vettel's lead over him in the same car was pretty astounding. But he's still 3rd, so hardly a disaster. He could well get 2nd in the race, if Vettel takes off and doesn't look back.

Here's an honest question to all. Who do you think is faster between Vettel and Webber? For me, Vettel is the faster racer. Between Hamilton and Button, it's Hamilton. And Alonso and Massa it's Alonso. Rosberg and Schumi, well it's a bit trickier, but Rosberg for now. If Schumi can't get to grips with the car in his 2nd year driving it, then you'd have to say any driver in F1 who needs a car so suited to their unique individual way of driving, would in the end do better if actually given that car.

Point is the faster drivers in the top 4 teams came out ahead of their team mates. What's so "mystifying" about that I wonder.

[Delta 0]

It's as simple as saying that Seb simply made Mark look very ordinary. I feel Lewis may have been closer if his KERS hadn't failed, but right about now RBR + Vettel are still the best qualifying combination on the grid.

As for Ferrari... the age old problem of them suffering in cold conditions rears it's ugly head again

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Let's not forget thAT Mark Webber was actually considered THE qualifying Kingpin. To beat Webber like this, it shows you the level of talent Vettel has, it's scary, crazy and outragious at the same time

[AleHop 0]

Webber having a look at Vettel's front wing after Saturday's qualifying.

EDIT

Front wing gate, remember?

[Max Mosley 2]

My thoughts exactly, Alex. We can't start from scratch again this season with our expectations of fair play. It seemed pretty clear last season that Red Bull preferred Vettel - the front wing swapping just confirmed it, as did Mark's radio comments to his own team.

That said, I don't think they deliberately give him a worse car, just that decisions go against him at every step of the way. That adds up to a big disadvantage. Even before the psychological difficulty of working with people who don't want you to win.

[KoolMonkey 0]

I don't agree with your wholesale comments Max. Teams favoring one driver over another has been with F1 since long before any of us were even born. But the way you make things out to be at RBR, my goodness the sky really is falling. You have to extrapolate Webber's failings from the team itself. Webber is not blameless here, it's not some big giant conspiracy against him. He's done many things to the detriment of the team. How about concealing the fact he was injured, and thus not 100%. How about Webber giving the impression his employers were not backing him and thus wanted to take a private business relationship public to exert some pressure on them, or to get the oh I'm being treated unfairly routine down. Many drivers have been sacked for doing far less. Just look at Speed. He wasn't that bad, or Bourdais. RBR are a pretty ruthless company when it comes to the business side, so Webber in some ways should count himself lucky.

As for wing gate, how convenient people seem to forget that Webber stated himself he didn't even like the new wing, and wanted the old one back. But since it served his purpose in trying to get public opinion going against his team and employers, he made no attempt to rectify the matter.

I'm of the opinion that Webber hides behind the notion that he's a "straight shooter" and "tells it like it is", and thus it gives him the soap box to moan, whine and throw the toys out of the pram. He's in a very fortunate position. He's in the best car, with the best designer and what more could you ask for. But it's still not enough for him.

[Rainmaster 7]

This is all too premature to say that the team is favouring one guy and I would avoid any tabloid style sites which make such accusations. First, Vettel seems good enough to not need it, and neither do Red Bull at such an early stage, it would just be costing them championship points. Second, Webber's problems seem more internal than external. Yes, perhaps Red Bull prefer it when Vettel wins and everyone is aware of that. The pressure that brings must be hard for Webber, as he probably feels like he's fighting an uphill battle when realistically he has exactly the same opportunity to win as Seb. Third, his performance in front of his home crowd has never been particularly good as far as I am aware. Again, dealing with pressure is what separates fairly equally talented people when it comes to competition. Finally, some have suggested Webber has been a little too busy and therefore distracted during the weekened because of all the publicity stuff he does.

All of these items add up to a less than average performance from Webber, and when the guy in the other car is absolutely on it, it's always going to look worse than it really is. In the end, and for the doubters, Webber summed it up best: "Let's stay cool, it's the first race - disappointing not to get a much better result here because it was certainly possible but in the end everyone deserved the result they got today and that's what they got".

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/90293

[AleHop 0]

Others think Ferrari told Massa to move over for Alonso to pass in Australia. If that's acceptable then what isn't.

Two scenarios where a team can do pretty much what they plesase about their drivers.

1.- Their car is much better than the rest

2.- They are disqualified for the constructors' championship

I'm not saying they did it but they could have done it. ⁽¹⁾

There's no need for reasoning either way, Vettel is better than Webber although not .8 seconds a lap better. So...

These things happens.

[Rainmaster 7]

Anything could have happened, but if you want to form any opinion on what did happen then you obviously need some reasoning both ways. My conclusion is: Webber had another bad weekend, probably because he's not great with pressure in general and especially in front of his home crowd (best ever result: 5th), and Vettel was on great form. It could turn out as something more serious, such as Webber's driving style being harsh on the tyres. Or he had some kind of setup issue. But any of that makes more sense than RB sabotaging him for the sake of Vettel. That doesn't make sense on several grounds which are easy enough to see if you just think about the situation for more than the 10 seconds it takes to think "wow, 0.8s + they changed Webber's wing last year! They must have sabotaged Webber somehow"! For a start, Red Bull could surely have sabotaged Webber in a much smaller way easily enough and had him finish second, securing more points in the championship (therefore money) without anybody asking any questions about the difference between the two drivers.

It annoys me when people give equal weight to scenarios which are possible but unlikely, as they give to much more likely scenarios. A bit like when the media gives equal coverage to every side of a story, the reasonable, likely, or evidence based side, and the unreasonable, absurd or stupid side (and yes, they are all so very possible too! ).

[Max Mosley 2]

I don't agree with your wholesale comments Max. Teams favoring one driver over another has been with F1 since long before any of us were even born. But the way you make things out to be at RBR, my goodness the sky really is falling. You have to extrapolate Webber's failings from the team itself. Webber is not blameless here, it's not some big giant conspiracy against him. He's done many things to the detriment of the team. How about concealing the fact he was injured, and thus not 100%. How about Webber giving the impression his employers were not backing him and thus wanted to take a private business relationship public to exert some pressure on them, or to get the oh I'm being treated unfairly routine down. Many drivers have been sacked for doing far less. Just look at Speed. He wasn't that bad, or Bourdais. RBR are a pretty ruthless company when it comes to the business side, so Webber in some ways should count himself lucky.

As for wing gate, how convenient people seem to forget that Webber stated himself he didn't even like the new wing, and wanted the old one back. But since it served his purpose in trying to get public opinion going against his team and employers, he made no attempt to rectify the matter.

I'm of the opinion that Webber hides behind the notion that he's a "straight shooter" and "tells it like it is", and thus it gives him the soap box to moan, whine and throw the toys out of the pram. He's in a very fortunate position. He's in the best car, with the best designer and what more could you ask for. But it's still not enough for him.

Good points. Sorry if I was a bit terse - but I can't be held accountable because I got up too early this morning!

On balance, whilst Webber's not perfect, I do still think there are enough incidents and comments available to think that, during last season, SV probably had the better deal from the team overall. I could be wrong though, of course, and it's true that Webber perhaps thrives on conflict.

But any of that makes more sense than RB sabotaging him for the sake of Vettel.

Yes of course - I think we're all agreed on that. The question for me is whether there are more subtle ways that Webber could lose out. For example, the choice to not use KERS was clearly great for Vettel but perhaps Webber was wishing they'd try it out. The team have their reasons for making the choice they did, and it might well be the best decision overall, but my impression from the outside is that many of these decisions (rather than outright sabotage) work against Mark in subtle ways.

A bit like when the media gives equal coverage to every side of a story, the reasonable, likely, or evidence based side, and the unreasonable, absurd or stupid side (and yes, they are all so very possible too! ).

Yep that annoys me too! Having said that, it also annoys me when the media take a (for me) patronising line and try to influence opinion in a politically correct direction. I guess it's hard to get the balance right but it would be much better with me in charge. For a start, a good rule of thumb might be that the BBC wouldn't uncritically broadcast comments that are factually incorrect, even if they represent a popular view. Even this seems too much for them sometimes.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Webber's been effectively "off" since Korea last year and has'nt been able to match his teammate. I say Vettel just stepped up a gear

[AleHop 0]

It annoys me when people give equal weight to scenarios which are possible but unlikely, as they give to much more likely scenarios. A bit like when the media gives equal coverage to every side of a story, the reasonable, likely, or evidence based side, and the unreasonable, absurd or stupid side (and yes, they are all so very possible too! ).

I didn't mean two possible scenarios like 1 Red Bull gave Webber a faulty front wing or 2 they put more efficient fuel in Vettel's car. You're talking about gossips and I agree with you (i.e. Massa moved over in Australia because Alonso is #1 driver and Doomenicalli told him so, blah).

The two scenarios I was talking about were real and general scenarios that may or may not take place at Red Bull or any other team at some stage of the season. In those two scenarios there's no reason for a team not to screw up one driver, if they want to, other than honesty.

My first post with Webber's picture looking at Vettel's FW should not be taken seriously for the time being.

[Rainmaster 7]

In that case we all agree pretty much I see Muzza's point, you could have a lot of small hurdles which add up to a big disadvantage, without RB actually doing anything to materially favour Seb. This is the kind of thing I meant by Red Bull preferring Vettel to win. Obviously Webber is aware of that, probably just from his interactions with team members. But still, those issues are more psychological and I think the drivers who end up in that situation (the Massa's, Webber's, Barrichello's) are just wired up that way. They just lack the social skills in the team, or the confidence, to make things go their way in the face of a competitor or a team that doesn't support them 100%.

Look at the way Alonso still performed at Mclaren in 2007 when he felt the team was completely against him (to a much greater extent than Webber/Red Bull). Would a Webber perform so well in such a scenario? Well no, almost certainly not. Would a Massa? Well no, we know he doesn't. Would a Hamilton? Probably, yeah. What about a Button? Well he managed to get the team on his side by going in with a positive attitude despite everybody saying it was "Lewis' team" - without a world title to his name would he have been able to be so confident and do that? I doubt it. I'm not sure what my point is to be honest () because it requires more thought and words, but it just seems the drivers who achieve better results on the track are just mentally more resilient (hence why they get number one "status" in the fist place), and they can deal with such internal pressures better which is why (or because) they are winners. Certain drivers (certain people even) are just not meant to be top dog and ultimately the root cause of that is usually that they lack something mentally that the winners/champions don't.

[AleHop 0]

I liked Muzza's post but I forgot to mention that in my post. He's right sometimes.

About preferences in a team towards one driver vs. the other it's an old story. I don't think you can normaly put the blame, I mean completely and 100%, on one side or the other. They're humans and they have their preferences and what's more important sometimes, they have thier own interests.

Alonso was the young kid in Renault in 2003 and he was very good, so they had a very good young driver in the team. He was very close to Briatore, etc... That's what every team wants more, a young and very good driver like then Hamilton in McLaren or now Vettel in Red Bull. A few years back Senna or Schumacher (yes he was young one day).

[KoolMonkey 0]

46, your mentioning of RBR possibly or definitely favoring Vettel over Webber can come down to human nature too. If one driver is confident, determined and gets on with everyone, and the other is brooding, combative, secretive, prickly and outspoken to the point of hurting the team, wouldn't it make sense they might at least on a personal basis favor one driver over the other?

If Webber felt he was out of place at RBR last year, then he should have shut up for once and got on with it. But he had to open his mouth constantly and then put Horner in a position (more than once too), where he had to defend the teams decisions and calm things down. This doesn't bode well for team harmonics. If you're a stick in the mud, a fly in the ointment, you're not going to get the sentimental vote. So while people like to point out how Marko and others favored Vettel, Webber himself seemed to create alot of the favoritism himself. Let's put it this way, if he had kept quiet on got on with the job rather than make things public and have a few hissy fits, you'd probably find he'd actually have more support all over.

[cavallino 2]

Geez people he had one bad race. Maybe he'll have good races to make up for it. Hold your horses.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Point noted Cav. The problem is the media reporting on this, and how others interpret this information, and more importantly misinformation. When Webber says it's "mystifying" and can't explain why he was so far behind Vettel, it does conjure up the notion he's wanting people to read between the lines. Personally I think there's nothing to it. Webber was simply off and that's that. Whether it was tyres, or the oz hoodoo when it comes to his home race is anyone's guess. But most people are smart enough to know on here that talk of conspiracy or team favoritism is so last year and honestly just out of place at the moment.

[cavallino 2]

Oddly enough, 1 second gaps are more easily fixed than 2 tenths gaps. if a teammate is one second behind, usually there is something very wrong that they should be able to figure out. the last three tenths is usually the hard part.

[Argento Reloaded 1]

There is no driver to bring such difference only by driving in F1! The difference between Webber and Vettel is due to the car!

[KoolMonkey 0]

But the drivers have their preferences in how to setup their own car. Best example I can give is Kimi in 2009 vs Massa's replacements. Same car... different results.

When you say the difference is down to the car, what do you mean exactly? Setup? Sabotage? Potatoes in the exhaust? What are you implying here.

[JHS 1]

Wow, he does excellent job and people start calling foul play? Just wow.

Here's a theory: he just did better than Webber. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Rainmaster 7]

46, your mentioning of RBR possibly or definitely favoring Vettel over Webber can come down to human nature too. If one driver is confident, determined and gets on with everyone, and the other is brooding, combative, secretive, prickly and outspoken to the point of hurting the team, wouldn't it make sense they might at least on a personal basis favor one driver over the other?

If Webber felt he was out of place at RBR last year, then he should have shut up for once and got on with it. But he had to open his mouth constantly and then put Horner in a position (more than once too), where he had to defend the teams decisions and calm things down. This doesn't bode well for team harmonics. If you're a stick in the mud, a fly in the ointment, you're not going to get the sentimental vote. So while people like to point out how Marko and others favored Vettel, Webber himself seemed to create alot of the favoritism himself. Let's put it this way, if he had kept quiet on got on with the job rather than make things public and have a few hissy fits, you'd probably find he'd actually have more support all over.

Yes, human nature is essentially what I am talking about. Basically I think Webber, and most 'number two' drivers who've been in a similar position, just have certain similar traits and personalities which is ultimately why they end up being number two's. Yes, Red Bull may have always preferred Vettel no matter which older driver was in the team, because he's better from a marketing point of view. Yet Webber could probably do more to ingratiate himself into the team, by the way he interacts with them, and as a consequence those smaller decisions which Muzza talked about might not go against him anywhere near as much.

[Delta 0]

The difference suggests to me that Webber simply struggled all weekend to get his setup right. Although Seb is IMO the better of the 2, All things being equal I don't think the performance difference between the 2 is as much as Australia made it seem.