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KoolMonkey

Vettel'S Lead Over Webber In Final Qualifying.

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But the drivers have their preferences in how to setup their own car. Best example I can give is Kimi in 2009 vs Massa's replacements. Same car... different results.

When you say the difference is down to the car, what do you mean exactly? Setup? Sabotage? Potatoes in the exhaust? What are you implying here.

There is alot of ways... for example if you have a engine with.. let´s say 2% more power, or the first chassis and the second (and revised to vettel) hidden some setup data, etc, etc and more etc. Not to say some mind games so often when a driver is fightinng with his team. Or flexible front wing for Vettel and fixed to Webber...

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There is alot of ways... for example if you have a engine with.. let´s say 2% more power, or the first chassis and the second (and revised to vettel) hidden some setup data, etc, etc and more etc. Not to say some mind games so often when a driver is fightinng with his team. Or flexible front wing for Vettel and fixed to Webber...

It's really hard to belive Red Bull did something like that and it's hard to belive Webber was 8 tenths down in Australia. It's all that happened last season what's making us wondering.

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For Mark to beat Vettel in qualifying he needs:

1. Vettel's setup, to bring him to within .1 seconds

2. Another injury of some sort to gee him up so he can make up the additional .1 second

:bangin:

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This story isn't going away. I'm still seeing crap popping up about Webber being shafted. Now it's because he's the clear #2, based on Horner's comments about Vettel and Hamilton not being a working proposition in the same team. We already know RBR see Vettel as the future and why shouldn't they? Webber is at the end of his career, with rumours he was going to retire anyway. Hardly a platform to risk everything on the guy, when it was evident he either choked or simply couldn't handle the pressure of the chase last year.

Sorry to say to all Webber fans, but Vettel is the future of that team. As good as Webber is, the reality is there will be others who can step in and do the job without complaining so much. I don't believe for one second RBR are sabotaging Webber, giving him inferior equipment or making it so that he loses out on strategies, tyres, or his warm sippy cup juice & blanket. He's still in the best team, and the best car at the moment. Thus he should either be coming 1st or 2nd. The next few races will show us what is going on, and what he's made of. I suspect hot air and excuses, but I'm happy to be proven wrong actaully.

Here's something to think about, rather than think that the "drinks company" is working against Webber, ask yourself this question, why is Webber doing so badly in the same car as Vettel? Not getting the best out of the tyres, injury, head space, or some other issue is what comes to mind. The last thing that comes to my mind is team favouritism.

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They have decided to look Webber's car and fix it after he threatened to take it to Official Renault Car Service in Australia. LOL! Obviously they have fixed it too much, now they will have to make effort to make Webber only 0.2 sec slower.

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The last thing that comes to my mind is team favouritism.

You´ve told us about the team consider Vettel "the future" and then conclude there is no favouritism. The gap between Webber and Vettel in 2010 was about 2 tenths average all the year and suddenly Webber foget how to drive. Look in other side the gap was due to the team - and this doesn´t mean felony but a huge mistake. From now on RBR will give the same machinery to both driver and things will work as in 2010.

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I will be much more worried if this happened continuously and not just one race. Litterally anything can happen in any given race. Both Force India's scoring points, a podium for Petrov, both Mercedes cars not finishing. This is the same principle. In baseball stat-nerd speak this is a small sample size. Let's get a few more races completed before we analyze anything critically. It's fun to talk about but certainly nothing to take seriously at this point in the season. If this keeps happening till Monaco or Canada then there is something amiss. Untill then, it's simply someone selling papers, blog hits, or what-not.

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You´ve told us about the team consider Vettel "the future" and then conclude there is no favouritism. The gap between Webber and Vettel in 2010 was about 2 tenths average all the year and suddenly Webber foget how to drive. Look in other side the gap was due to the team - and this doesn´t mean felony but a huge mistake. From now on RBR will give the same machinery to both driver and things will work as in 2010.

This doesn't prove or show favouritism. Rather who the team want to lead them for the coming years. Renault did the exact same thing with Kubica. All they talked about was him, and how they wanted him to lead the team. This was before his crash obviosuly. But that then doesn't automatically translate into the teams sabotaging the #2 drivers car. But I do understand folks thinking that's the case because they are only looking at one small scope and not the larger goings on.

Webber can't control what he says, so if he honestly thought he was being given the short end of the stick, he'd whine about it and make a huge fuss. Fact is he hasn't. He's only alluded to being mystified. If Webber's not happy, then leave the team for crying out loud. Rubens cried for years under Schumi, but then cried harder when he drove the dog BARs around for years. You can't have it both ways. You can't criticise your own team over and over and expect that some 50/50 decisions will always go your way.

Webber will be like Massa in 2009. An also ran. Good but not good enough in the end. I have more respect for the Heikkis than the trantrum throwing Webbers at present.

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This doesn't prove or show favouritism. Rather who the team want to lead them for the coming years. Renault did the exact same thing with Kubica. All they talked about was him, and how they wanted him to lead the team. This was before his crash obviosuly. But that then doesn't automatically translate into the teams sabotaging the #2 drivers car. But I do understand folks thinking that's the case because they are only looking at one small scope and not the larger goings on.

Webber can't control what he says, so if he honestly thought he was being given the short end of the stick, he'd whine about it and make a huge fuss. Fact is he hasn't. He's only alluded to being mystified. If Webber's not happy, then leave the team for crying out loud. Rubens cried for years under Schumi, but then cried harder when he drove the dog BARs around for years. You can't have it both ways. You can't criticise your own team over and over and expect that some 50/50 decisions will always go your way.

Webber will be like Massa in 2009. An also ran. Good but not good enough in the end. I have more respect for the Heikkis than the trantrum throwing Webbers at present.

We are talking about different things: the lap speed of a F1 car depends on a large quantity of factors. one of this factors is the driver, And when you have a gap of .8 seconds is not the driver. And I don´t care about Rubens -who many times (the few) was faster than MSC or someone else- Webber is not ,8 seconds a laps slower than Vettel! The answer is in the car setup and some wrong decisions taken by the team and the driver. Nevertj¿helles I´m still thinking the best parts will go to Seb´s car.

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We are talking about different things: the lap speed of a F1 car depends on a large quantity of factors. one of this factors is the driver, And when you have a gap of .8 seconds is not the driver. And I don´t care about Rubens -who many times (the few) was faster than MSC or someone else- Webber is not ,8 seconds a laps slower than Vettel! The answer is in the car setup and some wrong decisions taken by the team and the driver. Nevertj¿helles I´m still thinking the best parts will go to Seb´s car.

You're really going on the flimsiest of evidence.. 0.8 of a second gap over the season would take some explaining although it isn't out of the question. For one race? You're clutching at straws to push your goofy conspiracy theory. remember extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There are plenty of instances of drivers having a bad race. And a mechanical problem on one car doesn't automatically translate into evidence for goofy conspiracy theories either.

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You're really going on the flimsiest of evidence.. 0.8 of a second gap over the season would take some explaining although it isn't out of the question. For one race? You're clutching at straws to push your goofy conspiracy theory. remember extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There are plenty of instances of drivers having a bad race. And a mechanical problem on one car doesn't automatically translate into evidence for goofy conspiracy theories either.

Yeah! I will telephone horner to let me audit the team in order to gather evidence about my statement. Aside your ever rude manners, the claim is far from conspiracy: RedBull gave Webber the 2 status and will be the 2 all year. And .8 second per lap is far beyond driver responsability. But many people will translate into goofy "drivers having a bad race" (and 1st practice, 2nd practice, 3 practice, and qualy) theories.:D

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RedBull gave Webber the 2 status and will be the 2 all year.

When did that happen? I'm being flippant, of course; I see your wider point, but tlet's not get carried away. If Webber knuckles down and does the unimaginable (ie puts himself in contention right up to the end of the year) there will be no number one, two or five hundred and fifty seven.

Pipe dreams though; Vettel's going to blow his doors off.

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That's not rude manners. Criticizing your comments is very different from a personal attack, you can't take your posts being criticized? So now you say the evidence is there but you can't get to it. So we are to accept your ludicrous conspiracy theory based on your intuition? You are pushing the notion that Webber was stupid enough to sign for a team for another year after they discriminated against him all of last year. And then the very first race of the year they gave him an inferior car but he is staying damn quiet about it. That is an incredible claim and the evidence is your intuition or imagination???

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That's not rude manners. Criticizing your comments is very different from a personal attack, you can't take your posts being criticized? So now you say the evidence is there but you can't get to it. So we are to accept your ludicrous conspiracy theory based on your intuition? You are pushing the notion that Webber was stupid enough to sign for a team for another year after they discriminated against him all of last year. And then the very first race of the year they gave him an inferior car but he is staying damn quiet about it. That is an incredible claim and the evidence is your intuition or imagination???

Rude maners: if you don´t agree with me just say it you don´t need to describe my comments like goofy and something like that. And I didn´t take it as a personal attack either. Just to point out you can disagree with me or any other person in the world being nice and polite since we are changing points of view. I respect yours and all other members and never said nothing more than I do/don´t agree. I never describe a comments like goofy or whatever. That´s my way. You can follow you´re own way it´s up to you.

After all I insist Webber is not 0.8 slower than seb´s and the Webber´s side of the team is responsabile for that. End for me.

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After all I insist Webber is not 0.8 slower than seb´s and the Webber´s side of the team is responsabile for that. End for me.

It's one thing to favour a driver in a team by giving him updated parts and not the other driver (perhaps meaning an advantage of several tenths) It's quite another thing to slow the alleged number two down by eight tenths where it puts him into the clutches of rival teams, therefore throwing away team points.

There is not one logical reason to support any claim that Webber has been diadvantaged. My belief is that Vettel was highly charged with a better set up and ultimately a bit quicker in the skill department. Quite a shocking situation for Webber no doubt, but one he had better get hold of, PDQ.

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It's quite another thing to slow the alleged number two down by eight tenths where it puts him into the clutches of rival teams, therefore throwing away team points.

That should be engraved on a platinum-iridium bar and displayed somewhere near Paris.

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During the first half of 2010, Webber was always around 0.1 seconds behind Vettel. Then when Webber inherited Luscious Liz (Vettel's car discarded car chassis which won him many a race) Webber blew Vettel out of the water in the following races - Vettel didn't have an answer in qualifying or the race. RBR said that Vettel had damage in his chassis. In my opinion - there was something in Luscious Liz that rocked. If Hiekki (man I dislike him), hadn't blocked Webber and caused Luscious Liz to flip, Webber would have taken the title.

My point? It's all in the setup and the chassis. After Melbourne, Marko did allude to some chassis damage on Webber's car. One has to wonder about whether the chassis are coming out the factory exactly the same. I wonder if the RBR chassis flexes or is spring loaded to move under load. It seems to be a key component in RBR's success.

Anyway, wait until Webber gets the perfect setup/chassis combination (perhaps mid year)..then we will see Vettel scratching his head over Webber's pace.

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During the first half of 2010, Webber was always around 0.1 seconds behind Vettel. Then when Webber inherited Luscious Liz (Vettel's car discarded car chassis which won him many a race) Webber blew Vettel out of the water in the following races - Vettel didn't have an answer in qualifying or the race. RBR said that Vettel had damage in his chassis. In my opinion - there was something in Luscious Liz that rocked. If Hiekki (man I dislike him), hadn't blocked Webber and caused Luscious Liz to flip, Webber would have taken the title.

My point? It's all in the setup and the chassis. After Melbourne, Marko did allude to some chassis damage on Webber's car. One has to wonder about whether the chassis are coming out the factory exactly the same. I wonder if the RBR chassis flexes or is spring loaded to move under load. It seems to be a key component in RBR's success.

Anyway, wait until Webber gets the perfect setup/chassis combination (perhaps mid year)..then we will see Vettel scratching his head over Webber's pace.

So Heikki was the reason that Webber didn't win the title? Oh, ok. And what is your point about the chassis? You can't seem to make your mind up whether it's Vettel's supposed special chassis or Mark who can't set a car up. I suspect neither are true. Vettel was just faster than Mark in race one. There. Do we have to analyse it this deeply with conspiracy theory after just one race?

As for Vettel scratching his head? That will only happen if he catches fleas from Flavio. He will only marvel over Mark's pace in the reign of Queen d#ck.

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So Heikki was the reason that Webber didn't win the title? Oh, ok. And what is your point about the chassis? You can't seem to make your mind up whether it's Vettel's supposed special chassis or Mark who can't set a car up. I suspect neither are true. Vettel was just faster than Mark in race one. There. Do we have to analyse it this deeply with conspiracy theory after just one race?

My point was two fold - both of which are not mutually exclusive. But if you need me to summarise my points in black and white terms:

1. RBR chassis is seemingly one of the key to RBR's success (how it is special we do not know)

2. RBR chassis setup is extremely sensitive - causing fluctuations in performance.....get it right and head scratching will be aplenty (without Flavio's fleas).

As for Vettel scratching his head? That will only happen if he catches fleas from Flavio. He will only marvel over Mark's pace in the reign of Queen d#ck.

Dribbler, these words will haunt you throughout the 2011 season....and I will be there to remind you!

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My point was two fold - both of which are not mutually exclusive. But if you need me to summarise my points in black and white terms:

1. RBR chassis is seemingly one of the key to RBR's success (how it is special we do not know)

2. RBR chassis setup is extremely sensitive - causing fluctuations in performance.....get it right and head scratching will be aplenty (without Flavio's fleas).

I misunderstood then. I thought you were making the point that there was something special about Vettel's chassis over Webber's. Clearly the Red Bull chassis is special - that's hardly a revelation. One your second point, it may well be that the chassis is sensitive, but what does that actually mean? To me, it means that it is a great chassis, but only if you have a driver/engineer who understand how to get the best from it. Mark has never dispalyed any inferiority in this area relative to Seb (they are very close normally), so maybe this year's chassis suits Seb better. I have no idea.

Anyway, wait until Webber gets the perfect setup/chassis combination (perhaps mid year)..then we will see Vettel scratching his head over Webber's pace.

Fwon, these words will haunt you throughout the 2011 season....and I will be there to remind you! :naughty:

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I haven't posted in this thread because it's only been one race. Trying to draw conclusions after 11 event is pointless. Otherwise we'd have to say the Renault is a better car than the Ferrari this year.

This discussion will go one of two ways...

a ) Mark will challenge Vettel all season and they'll be fairly equally matched (like last year).

Some people will say this proves he is a better driver than Vettel because Vettel is getting preferential treatment.

Others will say that this equality proves that there is no number 2 in RBR and Mark supporters are cry babies.

b ) Vettel will continue to out pace Webber all season.

Some people will say this is because Vettel is getting preferential treatment.

Others will say Vettel's just better than Webber.

Either way the conversation continues with both sides convinced they have evidence that they're right and each trying to convince the other of their position's validity.

I'm off to donate some stem cells. So much tragedy. So little time for F1.

EDITED to replace B) with b ) - stupid smilies - this is no time for humor.

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I haven't posted in this thread because it's only been one race. Trying to draw conclusions after 11 event is pointless. Otherwise we'd have to say the Renault is a better car than the Ferrari this year.

This discussion will go one of two ways...

a ) Mark will challenge Vettel all season and they'll be fairly equally matched (like last year).

Some people will say this proves he is a better driver than Vettel because Vettel is getting preferential treatment.

Others will say that this equality proves that there is no number 2 in RBR and Mark supporters are cry babies.

b ) Vettel will continue to out pace Webber all season.

Some people will say this is because Vettel is getting preferential treatment.

Others will say Vettel's just better than Webber.

Either way the conversation continues with both sides convinced they have evidence that they're right and each trying to convince the other of their position's validity.

I'm off to donate some stem cells. So much tragedy. So little time for F1.

EDITED to replace B) with b ) - stupid smilies - this is no time for humor.

Yep. Some people have already made their conclusion, once that happens, any "evidence" just gets interpreted to fit that conclusion. Not that I have any sympathy for them, but Red Bull and Vettel can't win from that perspective.

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Rude maners: if you don´t agree with me just say it you don´t need to describe my comments like goofy and something like that. And I didn´t take it as a personal attack either. Just to point out you can disagree with me or any other person in the world being nice and polite since we are changing points of view. I respect yours and all other members and never said nothing more than I do/don´t agree. I never describe a comments like goofy or whatever. That´s my way. You can follow you´re own way it´s up to you.

After all I insist Webber is not 0.8 slower than seb´s and the Webber´s side of the team is responsabile for that. End for me.

I think all theories suggest that a team will go out of its way to sabotage one driver are incredibly goofy, if they wanted Webber to drive as no 2 they would do it in a way that helps the team. Giving one driver an inferior car helps noone.

1. RBR chassis is seemingly one of the key to RBR's success (how it is special we do not know)

2. RBR chassis setup is extremely sensitive - causing fluctuations in performance.....get it right and head scratching will be aplenty (without Flavio's fleas).

Of course the chassis is key to success, though there is more to it. F1 cars are extremely sensitive in general, and a 0.8 second gap in one race is not unprecedented. You're reading too much into it.

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