Kopite Girl

F1 Round Two - Malaysia

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Why is nobody worried about steering wheel falling of Petrov's car? Senna was killed when his steering failed.

Because it failed after the car landed, not before.

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NINETEEN LAPS ON PIRELLI PRIMES! In your ****ing faces! And Lewis is the better driver, apparently. Har-de-har all over THAT!!

Super psyched with that drive. Well done my boy, well done. Keep it on that level, and the championship is yours!

That feeling I had about McLaren. I have the same about Red Bull only I feel mid-season they're going to have a slump, and its up to them to recover from it. As I said to Dave, I don't feel the same chemistry in Red Bull as I do in McLaren.

Vettel will have his 2nd championship wrapped up halfway tru the season, before the slump :P

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Yeah, mate, it was somewhat puzzling to see a lot of people slagging off Nick after just one race. Nice that he came good.

It was me that said I'd have hired a half c#cked Ralf Schumacher in place of Nick Heidi. Why? Because I don't rate him, full stop. One race does not a season make. I'm going to say the same for Button, he needs to keep his momentum. Some will call lucky drive, but they're delusional.

Nick had a good outing today. But how many times as he shown a speck of talent only to go and make a nugget of himself, and prove exactly why I don't rate him. I said I'd swallow my pride and personally make a statement and admit I'm wrong, but not after one race. Ridiculous.

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NINETEEN LAPS ON PIRELLI PRIMES! In your ****ing faces! And Lewis is the better driver, apparently. Har-de-har all over THAT!!

Super psyched with that drive. Well done my boy, well done. Keep it on that level, and the championship is yours!

That feeling I had about McLaren. I have the same about Red Bull only I feel mid-season they're going to have a slump, and its up to them to recover from it. As I said to Dave, I don't feel the same chemistry in Red Bull as I do in McLaren.

button was much better today, more mature. no point in driving your heart out if you destroy the tires, and that could be his problem the rest of the season. ferrari's were much kinder to its tires than hamiltons mclaren at the end of the race. alonso was 1sec faster than hamilton.i can't understand that, but even ferrari can't understand behaviour of their car. did hamilton destroyed his tires that much?

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Vettel will have his 2nd championship wrapped up halfway tru the season, before the slump :P

:lol: You're a funny guy. That made me _laugh_ ;)

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button was much better today, more mature. no point in driving your heart out if you destroy the tires, and that could be his problem the rest of the season. ferrari's were much kinder to its tires than hamiltons mclaren at the end of the race. alonso was 1sec faster than hamilton.i can't understand that, but even ferrari can't understand behaviour of their car. did hamilton destroyed his tires that much?

Yes.

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button was much better today, more mature. no point in driving your heart out if you destroy the tires, and that could be his problem the rest of the season. ferrari's were much kinder to its tires than hamiltons mclaren at the end of the race. alonso was 1sec faster than hamilton.i can't understand that, but even ferrari can't understand behaviour of their car. did hamilton destroyed his tires that much?

Ferraris car is poor in that it generates too much heat in its tyres, which leads to premature failure. Adversely, on a cold track, read todays race, they end up working brilliantly. Ferrari will be hoping for cold days for the rest of the season.

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Vettel will have his 2nd championship wrapped up halfway tru the season, before the slump :P

I was thinking, four more races and hes got this season pretty much wrapped up....

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A highly chaotic Grand Prix with lots of action throughout the field, plenty to keep the interest levels up throughout the race, unlike in many recent seasons (imo, naturally). A few other points of interest:

  • A shame Heidfeld got in front of Lewis at the start, as much as I wanted him to prove all the "Heidfeld is average and shouldn't be in F1" people wrong, I'd rather have seen Vettel put under some real pressure instead of the usual Sunday drive to the flag. After all, plenty of drivers can dominate from pole, even Massa did it enough times in 2008 iirc, yet racing in the pack is a more difficult challenge. From a fan pov I hope we get to see Vettel battle at some point.

  • The consensus seems to be that Lewis destroyed his tyres. I'm not quite convinced on that one, to be honest, and I thought as the race unfolded that Lewis' problem was firmly in the Mclaren strategy department. I can't be bothered/don't have time to watch the GP again, but no doubt in the coming days we'll see an analysis of his strategy from James Allen or the like, which might be a bit more objective than falling into oversimplified "Lewis is a tyre destroyer" reasoning. I'll post any articles I see here, but Macca's strategy for Lewis seemed off to me.

  • Very surprised to find Alonso and Hamilton penalised. I can't see any particularly good reason for either penalty, especially Alonso's. Bizarre stuff, and just when I thought such decisions were generally getting better.

  • Apparently Vettel didn't use KERS for a large portion of the race, which doesn't exactly bode well for the rest of the season if they get it sorted. Not bad at all for a drinks company! Thank Woking that Mclaren managed to sort out their car from winter testing, otherwise this season really would look over and done with.

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Apparently Vettel didn't use KERS for a large portion of the race, which doesn't exactly bode well for the rest of the season if they get it sorted. Not bad at all for a drinks company! Thank Woking that Mclaren managed to sort out their car from winter testing, otherwise this season really would look over and done with.

Scary thing is, this was suppose to be the track that suited Mclaren better than the RB. I say this spells an ominous sign for the competitors of RBR. I predict domination from now onwards, unless reliability plays it hands... remember Vettel only pushed when he had to, and conserve tires for a long while. Whatch this space...

edit: I mean, where else would KERS be such a big factor?

Edited by BradSpeedMan

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I think the RB will have reached its full potential by Monaco, McLaren will continue to improve. If indeed we are talking about the same "awful" car it was supposed to be just before Oz, if they can improve in a short amount of time, what can they do over half a season.

As always, I'll say I could be wrong. And again I'll risk it and say I really don't think I am.

c#cky bitch aren't I? :lol:

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I think the RB will have reached its full potential by Monaco, McLaren will continue to improve. If indeed we are talking about the same "awful" car it was supposed to be just before Oz, if they can improve in a short amount of time, what can they do over half a season.

As always, I'll say I could be wrong. And again I'll risk it and say I really don't think I am.

c#cky bitch aren't I? :lol:

well, I have huge respect for your hunch'es, as they prove too be quite true :lol:

I hope you're right but I just feel Vettel is on such a roll with the team it will be really hard to stop him. At the same time it's hard to defend a championship, I remember Kimi winning early 2008 only to fade away gradually as Ferrari made updates that suited Massa more. I don't see the same thing happening with Vettel though...

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A highly chaotic Grand Prix with lots of action throughout the field, plenty to keep the interest levels up throughout the race, unlike in many recent seasons (imo, naturally). A few other points of interest:

  • A shame Heidfeld got in front of Lewis at the start, as much as I wanted him to prove all the "Heidfeld is average and shouldn't be in F1" people wrong, I'd rather have seen Vettel put under some real pressure instead of the usual Sunday drive to the flag. After all, plenty of drivers can dominate from pole, even Massa did it enough times in 2008 iirc, yet racing in the pack is a more difficult challenge. From a fan pov I hope we get to see Vettel battle at some point.

  • The consensus seems to be that Lewis destroyed his tyres. I'm not quite convinced on that one, to be honest, and I thought as the race unfolded that Lewis' problem was firmly in the Mclaren strategy department. I can't be bothered/don't have time to watch the GP again, but no doubt in the coming days we'll see an analysis of his strategy from James Allen or the like, which might be a bit more objective than falling into oversimplified "Lewis is a tyre destroyer" reasoning. I'll post any articles I see here, but Macca's strategy for Lewis seemed off to me.

  • Very surprised to find Alonso and Hamilton penalised. I can't see any particularly good reason for either penalty, especially Alonso's. Bizarre stuff, and just when I thought such decisions were generally getting better.

  • Apparently Vettel didn't use KERS for a large portion of the race, which doesn't exactly bode well for the rest of the season if they get it sorted. Not bad at all for a drinks company! Thank Woking that Mclaren managed to sort out their car from winter testing, otherwise this season really would look over and done with.

And yet Jenson finished P2 on the same strategy, he stopped one lap later, one lap earlier then one lap later than Lewis... Strange that, I think it's more to do with the tyres than anything else!

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Why did you post it here?

It was worth a new thread. :rolleyes:

I could if you like. What part was worth a new thread to you?

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Why is nobody worried about steering wheel falling of Petrov's car? Senna was killed when his steering failed.

Firstly, Senna's off was not caused by a steering column failure, because telemetry from his car indicated he was applying twisting force to it right up until the moment of impact, and secondly Petrov's broke after his car landed, and it's little wonder given the load he would have put through it.

As for the race... the promised passing fest from the degrading tyres once again failed to materialise, and the cars still get strung out just as quickly. And I am not all that surprised either. Lewis was really unlucky, and the team did not manage his strategy at all well, but Jenson put in his best performance for quite some time. I felt the penalties to Alonso and Lewis were both harsh, and unnecessary. Alonso just made a simple mistake, and I don't think Lewis moved excessively.

Edited by Delta

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Firstly, Senna's off was not caused by a steering column failure, because telemetry from his car indicated he was applying twisting force to it right up until the moment of impact, and secondly Petrov's broke after his car landed, and it's little wonder given the load he would have put through it.

As for the race... the promised passing fest from the degrading tyres once again failed to materialise, and the cars still get strung out just as quickly. And I am not all that surprised either. Lewis was really unlucky, and the team did not manage his strategy at all well, but Jenson put in his best performance for quite some time. I felt the penalties to Alonso and Lewis were both harsh, and unnecessary. Alonso just made a simple mistake, and I don't think Lewis moved excessively.

I've not heard that before. I had always thought it was his steering column that broke. Plus the fact they had modified, shortened and welded it a day or two beforehand. I was watching that race live on the tv and I remember it vividly. I also remember seeing footage back then I've never since seen, of Senna lying outside of the, what looked look blood under him. I think it was a helicopter shot or something, but for a few mins there were shots of the medics scampering around and assisting him which were in the live feed. I guess for respect sake they have never been shown or released again.

Just because there is telemetry saying there was twisting force on the steering column, doesn't mean something wasn't broken.

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I've not heard that before. I had always thought it was his steering column that broke. Plus the fact they had modified, shortened and welded it a day or two beforehand. I was watching that race live on the tv and I remember it vividly. I also remember seeing footage back then I've never since seen, of Senna lying outside of the, what looked look blood under him. I think it was a helicopter shot or something, but for a few mins there were shots of the medics scampering around and assisting him which were in the live feed. I guess for respect sake they have never been shown or released again.

Just because there is telemetry saying there was twisting force on the steering column, doesn't mean something wasn't broken.

Well actually it does...if it was broken, then the telemetry would read a big fat zero in the force column. Take for instance turning a rake handle with someone holding the rake head....you'll both feel a force. Now, break it in half, and repeat...neither of you will feel a force because there is no resistance.

One supporting factor in the broken steering column theory was that some wiseman looked at the in-car footage and mapped the movement of one of the buttons on the steering wheel, and it was all over the place, so he concluded that the steering wheel was free to move, and the only way this could be was from a broken shaft.

However, Williams was able to refute this by producing footage of Senna at the previous race, tracked the same button and the results were the same. What it actually was, was Williams had designed in a damping system that allowed the cloumn to move around a bit.

What telemetry does show though, was that the tyre pressures had dropped from following the pace car, and there was an undercar impact before Senna crashed. The likely conclusion from this was that Senna pushed too hard on cold tyres with lower air pressure which allowed the car to bottom out, he lost control for long enough to send him into the barrier.

But he was turning the whole time! I hear you say...this is true, and telemetry supports this (as Delta correctly says). He was also on the brake pedal. Cars don't turn too well if you are on the brake pedal. You can even try that yourself by aiming your own car at a brick wall at 250km/h, hitting the brakes and turning...you'll hit the wall every time

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Well actually it does...if it was broken, then the telemetry would read a big fat zero in the force column. Take for instance turning a rake handle with someone holding the rake head....you'll both feel a force. Now, break it in half, and repeat...neither of you will feel a force because there is no resistance.

One supporting factor in the broken steering column theory was that some wiseman looked at the in-car footage and mapped the movement of one of the buttons on the steering wheel, and it was all over the place, so he concluded that the steering wheel was free to move, and the only way this could be was from a broken shaft.

However, Williams was able to refute this by producing footage of Senna at the previous race, tracked the same button and the results were the same. What it actually was, was Williams had designed in a damping system that allowed the cloumn to move around a bit.

What telemetry does show though, was that the tyre pressures had dropped from following the pace car, and there was an undercar impact before Senna crashed. The likely conclusion from this was that Senna pushed too hard on cold tyres with lower air pressure which allowed the car to bottom out, he lost control for long enough to send him into the barrier.

But he was turning the whole time! I hear you say...this is true, and telemetry supports this (as Delta correctly says). He was also on the brake pedal. Cars don't turn too well if you are on the brake pedal. You can even try that yourself by aiming your own car at a brick wall at 250km/h, hitting the brakes and turning...you'll hit the wall every time

I was sooo trying not to meddle into this arguement after all these years but...

...here's a very simple experiment: watch the footage. Any footage of the accident would do. Forget what Williams said (it was discussed ad nauseam in those days why Williams removed the black box BEFORE the police could get them and kept them for I don't know how long before allowing the Italian Court access to it so the data is of, at least, debatable nature). Again, forget what Williams said, or what William-haters said. Just watch the footage. You, of all the members of the forum, are the ideal person to do it, but anybody can do the same experiment.

Again, watch it.

Even the most ignorant in mechanics or engeneering issues among us can tell that the car TRAVELS IN A STRAIGHT LINE. No sliding, not the slightest sign of the wheels turning to the left, or right. Compare with any other car/race onboard footage, just to be sure. If it was a case of sudden loss of downforce in a normal car, I have no idea of the most intricates aspects of that, but I'm sure that any driver would have been turning even if the car didn't respond. This wasn't the case AND IT IS IN PLAIN SIGHT. You do not need a computer animated recreation, you don't need the telemetry.

You'll need all those, probably, to establish the causes of the accident. I am not saying that the steering column was the cause, I am not even saying that Williams actually tampered with the black box, all that is beyond whatever I can tell from the footage, but I am sure now, and was sure then, that the car simply drove straight into the barriers. And that was what everybody knew until the years erased the memories and the computer generated graphics and new "documentaries" started trying to change the most simple of truths, the one you can see with your naked eyes.

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4) Flawless Vettel? Yeah, whatever. I'm finding "flawless" driving from pole to finish less and less attractive with years. Maybe I'm biased against Seb, granted, but the car was a massive advantage from the start, he started from pole which is another massive advantage and even there he didn't shine that much. Most of his problems were solved due to a fierce battle in the back. He could nurse his tires and what not. He was flawless, and he deserved to win no doubt, but until I see him having to drive from sme other place in a car that does not perform as well as his Kosher Kylie or whatever I will still maintain he has not proved yet he is the new Nando, nor even the new Hammy.

While he has a more than competent teammate struggling to match his pace, you can't take much away from him.

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It was me that said I'd have hired a half c#cked Ralf Schumacher in place of Nick Heidi. Why? Because I don't rate him, full stop. One race does not a season make. I'm going to say the same for Button, he needs to keep his momentum. Some will call lucky drive, but they're delusional.

Nick had a good outing today. But how many times as he shown a speck of talent only to go and make a nugget of himself, and prove exactly why I don't rate him. I said I'd swallow my pride and personally make a statement and admit I'm wrong, but not after one race. Ridiculous.

Not sure what you mean by you odn't rate him, I don't think anyone's claiming he's Kubeetza, but he deserves his place in F1 as much as at least half the grid.

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There's an interesting documentary about Senna's death that I can't remember who did it, probably Discovery or BBC. You get a lot of information from there and you can then think for yourself about what really happened with the steering column. It seems his death was because of the front left wheel popped out violently against Senna's helmet. It seems the impact alone didn't kill Senna.

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I was sooo trying not to meddle into this arguement after all these years but...

...here's a very simple experiment: watch the footage. Any footage of the accident would do. Forget what Williams said (it was discussed ad nauseam in those days why Williams removed the black box BEFORE the police could get them and kept them for I don't know how long before allowing the Italian Court access to it so the data is of, at least, debatable nature). Again, forget what Williams said, or what William-haters said. Just watch the footage. You, of all the members of the forum, are the ideal person to do it, but anybody can do the same experiment.

Again, watch it.

Even the most ignorant in mechanics or engeneering issues among us can tell that the car TRAVELS IN A STRAIGHT LINE. No sliding, not the slightest sign of the wheels turning to the left, or right. Compare with any other car/race onboard footage, just to be sure. If it was a case of sudden loss of downforce in a normal car, I have no idea of the most intricates aspects of that, but I'm sure that any driver would have been turning even if the car didn't respond. This wasn't the case AND IT IS IN PLAIN SIGHT. You do not need a computer animated recreation, you don't need the telemetry.

You'll need all those, probably, to establish the causes of the accident. I am not saying that the steering column was the cause, I am not even saying that Williams actually tampered with the black box, all that is beyond whatever I can tell from the footage, but I am sure now, and was sure then, that the car simply drove straight into the barriers. And that was what everybody knew until the years erased the memories and the computer generated graphics and new "documentaries" started trying to change the most simple of truths, the one you can see with your naked eyes.

Thank you.

There are a lot of those 'documentaries' out there which spread some myths and some propaganda. National Geographic did one called Seismic Seconds, which is really poor. In fact, for anybody interested there is a response to it on YouTube, it is the original 'documentary' but with some revealing additions:

Edit: Part 5 is the best for refuting the tyre pressure theory.

Edited by #46

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There's an interesting documentary about Senna's death that I can't remember who did it, probably Discovery or BBC. You get a lot of information from there and you can then think for yourself about what really happened with the steering column. It seems his death was because of the front left wheel popped out violently against Senna's helmet. It seems the impact alone didn't kill Senna.

Well, impact popped the wheel :) So, failing of the steering triggered chain of events that lead to his death...

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There's an interesting documentary about Senna's death that I can't remember who did it, probably Discovery or BBC. You get a lot of information from there and you can then think for yourself about what really happened with the steering column. It seems his death was because of the front left wheel popped out violently against Senna's helmet. It seems the impact alone didn't kill Senna.

if that documentary is the one i watched, then i will tell you that it is total bull sh!t. it is made from 'Williams F1 team' point of view and shows only their side of story. you can find on Youtube the same documentary edited by someone,with many data and fatcs that were not shown in original.i will not say that this one is true100% , but it shows crash from another point of view.

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if that documentary is the one i watched, then i will tell you that it is total bull sh!t. it is made from 'Williams F1 team' point of view and shows only their side of story. you can find on Youtube the same documentary edited by someone,with many data and fatcs that were not shown in original.i will not say that this one is true100% , but it shows crash from another point of view.

If only someone would post a link to it.

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