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KoolMonkey

Brundle'S Constant Pandering About Kubica.

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there's little to be gained from arguing about it.

There is little to be gained from anything we argue about here. There is also little to be gained by arguing about what we argue about or making pompous statements like the above. And anyone who seirously suggests Kubica isn't the same class as Hamilton Vettel Alonso etc either has no clue abut the sport or hasn't been watching closely enough.

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There is little to be gained from anything we argue about here. There is also little to be gained by arguing about what we argue about or making pompous statements like the above. And anyone who seirously suggests Kubica isn't the same class as Hamilton Vettel Alonso etc either has no clue abut the sport or hasn't been watching closely enough.

Well, as far as most of the arguments on this forum go, the one about Kubica seems pointless or odd, because both opinions (that he is either very good or one of the best) seem quite reasonable to me, and there is no absolute proof that Kubica is up there with Alonso et al (even if you and me believe he is) and won't be until he gets an opportunity in a top car. The responses ribbit got were completely uncalled for in that sense. I could at least understand people's passion for the argument if someone had said he was an average driver or a poor one, and then it would be much easier to actually counter that argument by using some stats and other observations to show it wasn't the case.

Of course, most arguments in general are pointless for one reason or another, and we don't usually gain anything from any of them, if only because some people are really stubborn, and lack manners. But at least some of our arguments/discussions result in a little more information on each side (e.g. the global warming thread, the discussion on Senna's death, the discussion on race strategies, etc), in this one nobody offered anything which amounted to more than "I'm right because I know more than you and some people agree with me" standard of arguing, mixed with a bunch of personal attacks too (the clue as to why they did this is in the first para, because they have no actual solid evidence or way of arguing to present a decent case). Until someone can improve on that with an argument with substance, I'll remain pompous.

@Steph: Thanks for the kind words!

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I saw Kubica last season and personally think he's an amazing driver.

This arguing over what could be is silly, but on the other hand using pure statistics is silly.

Take Webber as an example, if you just looked at results this year you would say that Vettel is a far better driver - but then you have to remember that Webber has had the inferior car EVERY race (even in China Webber didn't get to take advantage of P3 because of KERS issues, didn't have KERS for qualifying and his KERS broke in the race before Vettel's), and last year only fell behind Vettel in points after breaking his shoulder - and in that season he smacked Vettel silly some races. The season before that he would have probably done better if he didn't break his leg preseason and actually had a proper pre-season lead-up.

Even after all this is taken into account it is still hard to argue with many that Webber is as good as, or better than, Vettel. As a Webber fan I like to think about what could have been, but in reality if it had all been smooth sailing Webber might not have become such a good driver in the first place - he feeds off being the underdog. So arguing that if all the woes that befell Webber (and there were a LOT of them) never happened he would be double world champion etc, is stupid - he might not have developed the determination he has to overcome it all and could have ended up a lesser driver for it.

Same with Kubica, he is brilliant, I personally rated him top 3 in the paddock (with Nico and an angry Webber - when Webber isn't angry he drops back a few places in my ratings), but until he gets the opportunity to prove himself its just a 'could be' and a 'he has the potential'.

The other driver I think is a bit of a joker in the deck is Kamui, I rate him as a real danger to the leaders in the right car.

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I saw Kubica last season and personally think he's an amazing driver.

This arguing over what could be is silly, but on the other hand using pure statistics is silly.

Take Webber as an example, if you just looked at results this year you would say that Vettel is a far better driver - but then you have to remember that Webber has had the inferior car EVERY race (even in China Webber didn't get to take advantage of P3 because of KERS issues, didn't have KERS for qualifying and his KERS broke in the race before Vettel's), and last year only fell behind Vettel in points after breaking his shoulder - and in that season he smacked Vettel silly some races. The season before that he would have probably done better if he didn't break his leg preseason and actually had a proper pre-season lead-up.

Why do we say Webber had an inferior car to Vettel? Surely he has to make it work like Vettel or is there some conspiracy going on? Is RBR sabotaging his car, strange ole Webbo don't mention anything about it. Just last year Vettel were the one with all the malfunctions on the car did we say Vettel have an inferior car to Webbo? How many points did Vettel loose? Ole Webbo did'nt use the shoulder injury as an excuse maybe he could'nt stand up to the heat when the going got tough the last few races(2010). Maybe Vettel's performance during the last 4-5 races at the end of the season were just a once-off. Maybe it's because his german.

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Why do we say Webber had an inferior car to Vettel? Surely he has to make it work like Vettel or is there some conspiracy going on? Is RBR sabotaging his car, strange ole Webbo don't mention anything about it. Just last year Vettel were the one with all the malfunctions on the car did we say Vettel have an inferior car to Webbo? How many points did Vettel loose? Ole Webbo did'nt use the shoulder injury as an excuse maybe he could'nt stand up to the heat when the going got tough the last few races(2010). Maybe Vettel's performance during the last 4-5 races at the end of the season were just a once-off. Maybe it's because his german.

This season he has the inferior car definitely. First race he had the issue with the spring in the back that CH discussed after the race, 2nd race his KERS ****ed up and Vettel's was fine (he was asked not to use it later on but by that stage he had already won and he was still using it anyway). China I described in my last post.

I'm not saying it's a conspiracy - could easily be coincidence and Vettel might have all the problems later on, just that right now in this season I know which car I would pick for sure.

As for the shoulder you can't say he would have been at 100% with that injury. He might still have thrown the series away like he did in Korea anyway - like I said before it's nice to speculate but in the end meaningless. And the injury was his own fault for choice of activity outside of racing, which should still be considered as part of the driver as a package anyway.

I'd continue but I think I've derailed the thread enough lol.

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This season he has the inferior car definitely. First race he had the issue with the spring in the back that CH discussed after the race, 2nd race his KERS ****ed up and Vettel's was fine (he was asked not to use it later on but by that stage he had already won and he was still using it anyway). China I described in my last post.

I'm not saying it's a conspiracy - could easily be coincidence and Vettel might have all the problems later on, just that right now in this season I know which car I would pick for sure.

As for the shoulder you can't say he would have been at 100% with that injury. He might still have thrown the series away like he did in Korea anyway - like I said before it's nice to speculate but in the end meaningless. And the injury was his own fault for choice of activity outside of racing, which should still be considered as part of the driver as a package anyway.

I'd continue but I think I've derailed the thread enough lol.

I think I have a problem with you calling it an "inferior" car, which it definately is not. An "inferior" car could'nt achieve what Webbo did in China. Maybe he had his problems compared to Vettel, but then I would refer you again to last season, when it was the other way around and we did'nt hear this "inferior" car business. Vettel also had to race without KERS the first race, and made the most of the situation.

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**except of course those people that are disabled in one form or other that either prevents them from using said a##hole, or have had said a##hole removed surgically.

Reminds me of Mansell not fitting the c#ckpit in '95.....

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I think I have a problem with you calling it an "inferior" car, which it definately is not. An "inferior" car could'nt achieve what Webbo did in China. Maybe he had his problems compared to Vettel, but then I would refer you again to last season, when it was the other way around and we did'nt hear this "inferior" car business. Vettel also had to race without KERS the first race, and made the most of the situation.

It was a seized rear centre spring that effectively stiffened the rear almost to the stage of being un-drivable.

Read more: http://www.markwebberforum.com/index.cgi?board=aus2011&action=display&thread=7252#ixzz1KAdSMw00

The first race Webber didn't just have no KERS, his car had other issues. If Vettel was in that car he would have done just as badly as Mark.

My point is that in every race so far Vettel's car has given him advantage over Webber. If you think Vettel's sudden dominance over Webber is down to some miraculous increase in skill you are mistaken.

I apologise for the continued derailment of this thread.

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It was a seized rear centre spring that effectively stiffened the rear almost to the stage of being un-drivable.

Read more: http://www.markwebberforum.com/index.cgi?board=aus2011&action=display&thread=7252#ixzz1KAdSMw00

The first race Webber didn't just have no KERS, his car had other issues. If Vettel was in that car he would have done just as badly as Mark.

My point is that in every race so far Vettel's car has given him advantage over Webber. If you think Vettel's sudden dominance over Webber is down to some miraculous increase in skill you are mistaken.

I apologise for the continued derailment of this thread.

Where you from? Down under?

Don't worry about the "derailment" of the thread, we go off-topic with almost every thread

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You can't ask Mr/s Shadow Concept that...it has to be a mystery so we don't come to his/her aid if someone from a big bad place like Aregentina/Great Britain/USA/Sth Africa/Brazil/Mersey Paradise tell him/her they are an idiot based purely on his/her nationality.

I think that covered it. :P

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Some good points you bring up Brad. Vettel had all kinds of car problems last year, and not a single word was uttered about him having an inferior car. Then Webber has some car issues this year, an oh conspiracy! he's being hard done by on purpose by RBR. Vettel also has had car issues this year as well. Even if they aren't quite as bad as Webber's this should show anyone and everyone the RBR this year isn't quite perfect, and has nothing/zero/zilch/nada to do with team favoritism.

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And Aregenitalia exists. So there :mf_tongue:

Yes, it's those two little round-shaped peninsulas situated just south of Yourpeewee.

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Sigh, I never brought it up to say there as a conspiracy. My god how that got twisted so fast is beyond me.

All I'm saying is that if you judge Webber this season by pure statistics you get an incorrect picture of his ability especially compared to Vettel. I never said there was a conspiracy, and I never denied that Vettel had the same problems last year. I was simply using a the most recent example I could think of.

Please actually read what I say before you get ultra defensive.

I was just using the example of Webber's issues and how it's made him look terrible in comparison to his teammate so far - if you simply look at the statistics - to show the people who were saying Kubica was a nothing because, due to the fact he hasn't had a top car yet, his actual statistics aren't that great compared to Alonso and a few others.

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Sigh, I never brought it up to say there as a conspiracy. My god how that got twisted so fast is beyond me.

All I'm saying is that if you judge Webber this season by pure statistics you get an incorrect picture of his ability especially compared to Vettel. I never said there was a conspiracy, and I never denied that Vettel had the same problems last year. I was simply using a the most recent example I could think of.

Please actually read what I say before you get ultra defensive.

I was just using the example of Webber's issues and how it's made him look terrible in comparison to his teammate so far - if you simply look at the statistics - to show the people who were saying Kubica was a nothing because, due to the fact he hasn't had a top car yet, his actual statistics aren't that great compared to Alonso and a few others.

Ah yes - welcome to TF1 SC!

You'll find that happens rather a lot around here. People like you to have said something that suits their counter argument rather than paying more attention to your actual post.

The best way around this is to predict said misrepresentation beforehand and counteract it in your original post. It's an inexact art.

Any way - YES, I think we can all agree that Webber has had a more unfortunate time of it with his car over the first 3 races this season and therefore it would be misleading to conclude that Vettel is the better driver from the results of only those 3 GP's. We would have to make such conclusions based on looking at their comparative performances with equally matched equipment over a longer period of time.

When we do so, for me, there's little in it and so either side of the divide could put forward a pretty convincing argument for their man.

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Ah yes - welcome to TF1 SC!

You'll find that happens rather a lot around here. People like you to have said something that suits their counter argument rather than paying more attention to your actual post.

The best way around this is to predict said misrepresentation beforehand and counteract it in your original post. It's an inexact art.

Any way - YES, I think we can all agree that Webber has had a more unfortunate time of it with his car over the first 3 races this season and therefore it would be misleading to conclude that Vettel is the better driver from the results of only those 3 GP's. We would have to make such conclusions based on looking at their comparative performances with equally matched equipment over a longer period of time.

When we do so, for me, there's little in it and so either side of the divide could put forward a pretty convincing argument for their man.

Yep, that was my point exactly ::clap3:

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Ah yes - welcome to TF1 SC!

You'll find that happens rather a lot around here. People like you to have said something that suits their counter argument rather than paying more attention to your actual post.

The best way around this is to predict said misrepresentation beforehand and counteract it in your original post. It's an inexact art.

Any way - YES, I think we can all agree that Webber has had a more unfortunate time of it with his car over the first 3 races this season and therefore it would be misleading to conclude that Vettel is the better driver from the results of only those 3 GP's. We would have to make such conclusions based on looking at their comparative performances with equally matched equipment over a longer period of time.

When we do so, for me, there's little in it and so either side of the divide could put forward a pretty convincing argument for their man.

How can you say that? You don't watch F1 close enough.

Over.

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How can you say that? You don't watch F1 close enough.

Over.

I have resolved to watch the Turkish GP with my eyeballs no more than two inches from the live timing feed.

15 22 5 18

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Nope...not close enough.

Oscar Victor Echo Romeo

It's really about what is it that you chose to believe you think you saw.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

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Yep, that was my point exactly ::clap3:

Aha. So what you are saying is you hate kids, enjoy it when the drivers get hurt and pull wings off the flies...

(try predicting THIS) :ph34r:

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Yes, it's those two little round-shaped peninsulas situated just south of Yourpeewee.

Likely completely invisible without prior knowledge of their existence...

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It was a seized rear centre spring that effectively stiffened the rear almost to the stage of being un-drivable.

Read more: http://www.markwebbe...2#ixzz1KAdSMw00

The first race Webber didn't just have no KERS, his car had other issues. If Vettel was in that car he would have done just as badly as Mark.

My point is that in every race so far Vettel's car has given him advantage over Webber. If you think Vettel's sudden dominance over Webber is down to some miraculous increase in skill you are mistaken.

I apologise for the continued derailment of this thread.

Yup, but the reason you are derailing the thread is that you seem to be using facts except pure opinion. We only use facts if we can twist them to fit our farsical point we are attempting to make. Using pure facts to create a cogent and coherent argument is discouraged. The best way to use facts is to dismantle them first and then use one small portion of them to support your hypothesis, which you must state as an undeniable fact. Here is an example: " Kubica is worse driver than Hamilton because he only won one race."

That's OK, we'll train you fast enough

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Ah yes - welcome to TF1 SC!

You'll find that happens rather a lot around here. People like you to have said something that suits their counter argument rather than paying more attention to your actual post.

The best way around this is to predict said misrepresentation beforehand and counteract it in your original post. It's an inexact art.

Any way - YES, I think we can all agree that Webber has had a more unfortunate time of it with his car over the first 3 races this season and therefore it would be misleading to conclude that Vettel is the better driver from the results of only those 3 GP's. We would have to make such conclusions based on looking at their comparative performances with equally matched equipment over a longer period of time.

When we do so, for me, there's little in it and so either side of the divide could put forward a pretty convincing argument for their man.

The point is if you make such conclusions you'll find Vettel is indeed the better and more talented driver. Only the most die-hard Webber will see otherwise....Would you like to refute this with facts and arguments? Piotr has the same arguments, maybe you two should do a toss-up and see what facts you come up with, but you'll find that overall Vettel is the more complete based on what I've witness the last 3 years...

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The point is if you make such conclusions you'll find Vettel is indeed the better and more talented driver. Only the most die-hard Webber will see otherwise....Would you like to refute this with facts and arguments? Piotr has the same arguments, maybe you two should do a toss-up and see what facts you come up with, but you'll find that overall Vettel is the more complete based on what I've witness the last 3 years...

Vettel might very well be the better driver and you are entitled that that opinion, that wasn't my point. My point was you can't make that assumption based entirely on the last 3 races because of the circumstances.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say, but I get the feeling I'm just bashing my head against a wall.

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