Brundle'S Constant Pandering About Kubica.

[yurp 0]

The point is if you make such conclusions you'll find Vettel is indeed the better and more talented driver. Only the most die-hard Webber will see otherwise....Would you like to refute this with facts and arguments? Piotr has the same arguments, maybe you two should do a toss-up and see what facts you come up with, but you'll find that overall Vettel is the more complete based on what I've witness the last 3 years...

Nope Braddy boy - you won't be getting me involved in this one.

I'm a car guy, not a driver guy. I'll let you and the others slug this one out - I'm not really bothered enough about Vettel vs Webber, Hamilton vs Alonso, Schumi vs Rosberg to make any major effort collating selective data from wikipedia.

And any way - none of that stuff matters when Petrov and Kobayashi are so much better than all of them.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

And any way - none of that stuff matters when Petrov and Kobayashi are so much better than all of them.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Vettel might very well be the better driver and you are entitled that that opinion, that wasn't my point. My point was you can't make that assumption based entirely on the last 3 races because of the circumstances.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say, but I get the feeling I'm just bashing my head against a wall.

Sounding like an arrogant prick is'nt gonna get you anywhere on the forum, I can decuce that much from conversations you had since you joined. You have a too high opinion of yourself, take a humble step down. and I don't ususually resort to post like these, but I should just let you know

So, Webber is not better than Vettel these last 3 races because of an inferior car that had problems...I understand

[Shadow Concept 0]

Sounding like an arrogant prick is'nt gonna get you anywhere on the forum, I can decuce that much from conversations you had since you joined. You have a too high opinion of yourself, take a humble step down. and I don't ususually resort to post like these, but I should just let you know

So, Webber is not better than Vettel these last 3 races because of an inferior car that had problems...I understand

Webber was no match for Vettel these last 3 races because of an inferior car that had problems - fixed so it doesn't sound like you still think I was still having a dig at your favourite driver.

[cavallino 2]

This season he has the inferior car definitely. First race he had the issue with the spring in the back that CH discussed after the race, 2nd race his KERS ****ed up and Vettel's was fine (he was asked not to use it later on but by that stage he had already won and he was still using it anyway). China I described in my last post.

The Webber Vettel situation and Hamilton Button situations are similar, they can look closely matched but in the end Hamilton and Vettel are able to pull that little something out that separates them. Sure, Webber has had issues, but looking overall at all session times, qualifying laps, race pace etc I think Vettel's been faster, of course Webber hasn't been anywhere as bad as the stats make him look.

[cavallino 2]

Well, as far as most of the arguments on this forum go, the one about Kubica seems pointless or odd, because both opinions (that he is either very good or one of the best) seem quite reasonable to me, and there is no absolute proof that Kubica is up there with Alonso et al (even if you and me believe he is) and won't be until he gets an opportunity in a top car.

But there is never any absolute proof! Even if a driver wins races, even championships take Damon Hill for example, there will be questions. Putting him in a top car won't give us absolute information any more than now. What will be instructive is of course him driving alongside a top flight driver. The advantage of being in a top flight car though is it's easier to scrutinize him due to the extra coverage, evaluating midfield drivers requires more work of digging through info. I think there is plenty of proof for Kubica being in the top league. Maybe I'll dig some stuff up and make a longer post sometime.

[Rainmaster 7]

But there is never any absolute proof! Even if a driver wins races, even championships take Damon Hill for example, there will be questions. Putting him in a top car won't give us absolute information any more than now. What will be instructive is of course him driving alongside a top flight driver. The advantage of being in a top flight car though is it's easier to scrutinize him due to the extra coverage, evaluating midfield drivers requires more work of digging through info. I think there is plenty of proof for Kubica being in the top league. Maybe I'll dig some stuff up and make a longer post sometime.

Yes, I accept that point completely. Absolute proof is not the right phrase. But it would be, and is for other drivers', easier to judge their worth once we see them in more competitive machinery. For example, it is relatively easy to point out Hamilton's and Alonso's skills, because what they have achieved is obvious, easier to judge, and more difficult to dispute (like you allude to). It's easier to compare apples with apples, midfield drivers with midfield drivers and world champions with world champions.

In Kubica's case, he has not been in a winning or a challenging for wins car that often, and peoples opinion of Heidfeld is divided, and a rookie Petrov was not much of a benchmark. Bearing that in mind I can see why some people reached a slightly less high opinion of him or are not yet convinced of his abilities being right up there. I think those people are most likely wrong but I can see why they would reach that opinion; which is why I think the argument is different to most, where one person thinks someone is wrong and is being unreasonable too.

I also think that even if you or I provided some reasons for our belief, it would be difficult to convince someone who already reached a conclusion of their own accord (unless we had something they hadn't seen before, such as telemetry data, for example). We might as well try and convince them to change what they think is impressive in a Grand Prix driver. And it's for that reason I never bothered to provide any reasons of my own, although, it would be a better place to start next time this kind of argument comes around rather than insults, and appeals to authority or popular opinion.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Yes, I accept that point completely. Absolute proof is not the right phrase. But it would be, and is for other drivers', easier to judge their worth once we see them in more competitive machinery. For example, it is relatively easy to point out Hamilton's and Alonso's skills, because what they have achieved is obvious, easier to judge, and more difficult to dispute (like you allude to). It's easier to compare apples with apples, midfield drivers with midfield drivers and world champions with world champions.

In Kubica's case, he has not been in a winning or a challenging for wins car that often, and peoples opinion of Heidfeld is divided, and a rookie Petrov was not much of a benchmark. Bearing that in mind I can see why some people reached a slightly less high opinion of him or are not yet convinced of his abilities being right up there. I think those people are most likely wrong but I can see why they would reach that opinion; which is why I think the argument is different to most, where one person thinks someone is wrong and is being unreasonable too.

I also think that even if you or I provided some reasons for our belief, it would be difficult to convince someone who already reached a conclusion of their own accord (unless we had something they hadn't seen before, such as telemetry data, for example). We might as well try and convince them to change what they think is impressive in a Grand Prix driver. And it's for that reason I never bothered to provide any reasons of my own, although, it would be a better place to start next time this kind of argument comes around rather than insults, and appeals to authority or popular opinion.

lovely stuff

[ribbit 0]

Vettel might very well be the better driver and you are entitled that that opinion, that wasn't my point. My point was you can't make that assumption based entirely on the last 3 races because of the circumstances.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say, but I get the feeling I'm just bashing my head against a wall.

you are. It's fun and it seems a requirement and some sort of hazing for new people.

But there is never any absolute proof! Even if a driver wins races, even championships take Damon Hill for example, there will be questions. Putting him in a top car won't give us absolute information any more than now. What will be instructive is of course him driving alongside a top flight driver. The advantage of being in a top flight car though is it's easier to scrutinize him due to the extra coverage, evaluating midfield drivers requires more work of digging through info. I think there is plenty of proof for Kubica being in the top league. Maybe I'll dig some stuff up and make a longer post sometime.

With regards to the bolded part. I really am looking forward to you posting this info. But that's twice now you've mentioned it. Methinks you are just a kubicaprooftease.

[cavallino 2]

With regards to the bolded part. I really am looking forward to you posting this info. But that's twice now you've mentioned it. Methinks you are just a kubicaprooftease.

I started to put something together, but I'll just pass you on to Mark Hughes instead, he puts it better than I possibly could:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/9080455.stm

[cavallino 2]

To add to that, it's not simply that Kubica is better than the best, but that all the top drivers on the grid have clear, glaring weaknesses, none of them are a complete package. Button doesn't have enough raw speed, Hamilton is not a smart enough racer to make the best of what he has, Alonso is prone to mistakes and never a team man, not the best when things aren't going his way. Vettel isn't so good at pushing his car up and making his way through the grid, he is much more comfortable with a clear track. And they all make mistakes, far more mistakes than Kubica.

[ribbit 0]

To add to that, it's not simply that Kubica is better than the best, but that all the top drivers on the grid have clear, glaring weaknesses, none of them are a complete package. Button doesn't have enough raw speed, Hamilton is not a smart enough racer to make the best of what he has, Alonso is prone to mistakes and never a team man, not the best when things aren't going his way. Vettel isn't so good at pushing his car up and making his way through the grid, he is much more comfortable with a clear track. And they all make mistakes, far more mistakes than Kubica.

Everything in your post that I have quoted here is your opinion. Sure someone else might share it and that's cool. I really don't have the energy to discuss this any longer. You think he's better than everyone, I don't. I still think Kubica is a fabulous driver. I just don't think he's top.

/done beating dead horse.

[dribbler 6]

/done beating dead horse.

Ah, horses..... http://www.weebls-stuff.com/songs/Amazing+Horse/

[cavallino 2]

Everything in your post that I have quoted here is your opinion. Sure someone else might share it and that's cool. I really don't have the energy to discuss this any longer. You think he's better than everyone, I don't. I still think Kubica is a fabulous driver. I just don't think he's top.

/done beating dead horse.

You did rather ignore Mark Hughes' piece there, might be more instructive than looking up crash statistics, this isn't NASCAR.

Beating dead horses is what we do here

[ribbit 0]

You did rather ignore Mark Hughes' piece there, might be more instructive than looking up crash statistics, this isn't NASCAR.

Beating dead horses is what we do here

So Kubica, Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel don't race in NASCAR? I am so confused now. I thought all along that Vetel had won the Daytona 500 this year. Does that mean Kyle Busch isn't Tony Stewart's teammate at McLaren?

I think it's midly amusing that you thought to mention that. Either you're an idiot or you think I am. Probably both.

[Delta 0]

Ah, horses..... http://www.weebls-st.../Amazing+Horse/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IU1bzZheWk

[cavallino 2]

So Kubica, Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel don't race in NASCAR? I am so confused now. I thought all along that Vetel had won the Daytona 500 this year. Does that mean Kyle Busch isn't Tony Stewart's teammate at McLaren?

I think it's midly amusing that you thought to mention that. Either you're an idiot or you think I am. Probably both.

I took a dig at you because after pestering me for evidence about how good Kubica is, you chose to roundly ignore it. Chill.

[Piotr 0]

OK, this has been going long enough. But here is a wrinkle - I postulate Kubica is the most ENTERTAINING driver on the circuit in YEARS. This is likely because he is aggressive and good, and knows how to push the opponents. TV cameras absolutely LOVE to show him. Otherwise, what's they are going to show? Vettel going alone lap after lap? I just watched the qualy for GP Turkey. Where was the drama? the fact that Barichello almost made it to Q3???

[ribbit 0]

I took a dig at you because after pestering me for evidence about how good Kubica is, you chose to roundly ignore it. Chill.

No worries. I just had my panties in a bunch. We're good.

OK, this has been going long enough. But here is a wrinkle - I postulate Kubica is the most ENTERTAINING driver on the circuit in YEARS. This is likely because he is aggressive and good, and knows how to push the opponents. TV cameras absolutely LOVE to show him. Otherwise, what's they are going to show? Vettel going alone lap after lap? I just watched the qualy for GP Turkey. Where was the drama? the fact that Barichello almost made it to Q3???

I find Vitaly Petrov highly entertaining. If he isn't doing Dukes of Hazzard style jumps he's going toe-to-toe with a seven time champ and then his teammate.

[yurp 0]

I find Vitaly Petrov highly entertaining. If he isn't doing Dukes of Hazzard style jumps he's going toe-to-toe with a seven time champ and then his teammate.

Yep - he, Kobay and Perez (so far) have been enjoyable additions to F1.

[Piotr 0]

ummm.. you missed one thing - I said entertaining AND good. Kobayashi, Petrov, and a couple of others are entertaining, but they make a lot of mistakes. Kubica did not. That's why he was SO entertaining. Now we'll have to wait for the next month or so to see if he even comes back! Crap...

[kacpero21 0]

It`s look that we will be able to see Kubica first time after accident: http://robertscomeback.blogspot.com/2011/05/probably-this-week-we-will-see.html#more

[Gneus7 0]

Fully deserves the praise IMO. I see what Brundle see's