Sam Michael & Williams

[HandyNZL 1]

Another season, another cruddy start for sentimental favourites, Williams. They are currently placed lower on the finishing table than HRT...ahuh....that HRT....

Adam Parr is making noises about change....and the fellow that has his name mentioned most appears to be Sam Michael. The man that essentially took over Patrick Head's role at the team. Not since Ralf and Monty were at the team have they even looked likely of gaining a podium, let alone a race win, and if my memory serves, that coincides with Sam's appointment.

I've often wondered to myself about Sam Michael's engineering...I mean, it seems sound, the car's are not THAT bad, for instance, they have come up with a pretty trick gearbox this season, so there is some innovative engineering going on there at Team Willy, but something is just not clicking...

Maybe it's Sam? Maybe it's Patrick sticking his nose in still? Maybe it's having to run Cosworth engines of late? Sure they haven't said they are a bad engine, but you don't go around biting the hand that feeds you, now do you? When they had the Toyota's, whilst not a race winning car, they were racy now and again...and they flew with BMW to several race wins....so maybe it's the pony generator...

So what would you do if you were Sir Frank?

Me, I'd try and get myself a new engine deal from 2013 with another manufacturer...maybe Renault....yes....I'd go for them....I think they may be strong come the new regs. I haven't got the money to pries Newey back off RBR, but I think I'd be looking for someone to replace Sam at the end of this year too...whilst he has been in the team for quite some time, and has done a B+ job, I think fresh blood, fresh thinking is needed...and then I'd send Patrick off on some errands.....just so his nose stays out of the place for a bit....

[Argento Reloaded 1]

I think Sam will soon be out of Williams and perhaps the F1 business...

[cavallino 2]

Another season, another cruddy start for sentimental favourites, Williams.

Me, I'd try and get myself a new engine deal from 2013 with another manufacturer...maybe Renault....yes....I'd go for them....I think they may be strong come the new regs. I haven't got the money to pries Newey back off RBR, but I think I'd be looking for someone to replace Sam at the end of this year too...whilst he has been in the team for quite some time, and has done a B+ job, I think fresh blood, fresh thinking is needed...and then I'd send Patrick off on some errands.....just so his nose stays out of the place for a bit....

I guess you are too busy saving damsels in distress on the internet to have a clue which is why you just post ignorant garbage with some trolling thrown in. Cosworth's engine is competitive and the FIA has made allowances when one engine manufacturer (Renault) was falling behind. You can also tell from top speeds, acceleration etc that the engine is not the problem. Reliability, the rest of the car and substandard drivers are their biggest problems, their biggest liability is Sam Michael, the second biggest is Rubens Barrichello. You look at how well ex Williams drivers are doing in other teams and how little effort Williams made to hold on to them.

[HandyNZL 1]

You know something Cav...if you took your head out of your arse and stopped spanking the monkey over Schumacher, then you would have noticed I was talking about Renault engines for the new engine formulas...but you didn't, because you like to have the last word and sound all righteous...so...prove me wrong, and not have the last word....

[KoolMonkey 0]

Good news indeed. I raised this issue awhile back and a few idiots attempted to "school" me on it. I can't wait for Sam Michaels to be shown the door at Williams. The team in it's present guise is honestly pathetic. And further to Andy's point, they haven't attempted to keep their drivers for the past 2 decades. Just look at all the talent that went out the door. Hill,JV,DC,JPM,Heidfeld,Webber,Rosberg etc.

Williams will be great again if Head takes on a more day to day role. It could be temporary, but the interns running the show right now are simply not qualified or gifted in the Williams way of racing.

[Delta 0]

The sad but inevitable truth is that Williams simply don't have the resources to carry on beating the big teams, and I don't think changes in their crew are overly likely to remedy that situation. The sad truth is that williams glory days are a thing of the past, and their position in F1 is as a midfield team.

[HandyNZL 1]

Good news indeed. I raised this issue awhile back and a few idiots attempted to "school" me on it. I can't wait for Sam Michaels to be shown the door at Williams. The team in it's present guise is honestly pathetic. And further to Andy's point, they haven't attempted to keep their drivers for the past 2 decades. Just look at all the talent that went out the door. Hill,JV,DC,JPM,Heidfeld,Webber,Rosberg etc.

Williams will be great again if Head takes on a more day to day role. It could be temporary, but the interns running the show right now are simply not qualified or gifted in the Williams way of racing.

But Head has one foot out the door already...asking him to bring it back in is pointless, I feel.

I have never been a fan of Sam, but he has lasted there a long time, and neither Patrick or Frank suffer fools, so Sam would have been down the track a long time ago if he didn't have "something". The big question, is who would replace him? Bring Gordon Murray out of retirement aka making carbon fibre dinner tables and chairs....?

You have to bring in someone young, because at the end of the day, we all die, and Patrick and Frank are not going to be there forever. McLaren has already done teh change of guard thing, and Williams, I believe are working towards that. Patrick and Frank need to put there feet up (so to speak in Franks case) and enjoy the fruit of their long careers...its only fair on them, so they need someone to carry on Frank Williams Racing...Adam Parr is part of that...maybe Sam will still be a part of it...or maybe someone new...someone unknown...like the McLaren designers....can anyone name one of them without googling it? I doubt it.

Drivers stick around if the car is good. They want to be world champion and they will go where they think they can achieve that. For several years now Williams has been making up the numbers, sometimes with a good result. Is that a place a driver wants to go to, to realise his dream? Not likely. Currently its a team that either gives a driver a foot in the F1 door, or a way to keep their foot in the door.

Money and resources is one thing, but engineering ideas and carry through does not cost that much in the scheme of things. Case in point, NZ America's Cup teams...never ever are they the best funded (they are not the worst either), but they are able to compete and beat the majority. Williams needs a little of that magic at the moment.

So, no, reinstating Patrick will just extend the problem even longer. They may have a quick car and a dud pony right now, which is why a switch of engines for the new regulations may be a good idea. Renault have proven in the past that they can produce good small engines, and it is more in line with their road car engine development so they have the engineers available. Cosworth does not have those sorts of resources, nor manufacturing abilities - they were setup as an "add-on" engine tuner (starting with heads way back in the day) - they do an amazing job for what they are, but they have always been better when joined up with another engine manufacturer, like Ford...just the way the Mercedes and Ilmor relationship works. To ask them to come along in 2013 with a competitive and reliable platform is most likely beyond them...for Renault, it's their bread and butter.

[KoolMonkey 0]

You'd have to say Williams have been out of sorts for the best part of a decade. Ralf and JPM where their last winners. But that was also the beginning of the end too. Remember the walrus nose? I sure do. Kudos for taking a gamble, but nothings worked for them since. It's not just the engine supply issue, but I think an ideology. And I'm with you on never liking Sam either. For Head's replacement, it just never made sense. I've never felt that punching above your weight vibe from him. I do when I see Patrick and Frank. And you'd have to say Adam Parr is really part of the problem as well since this team just seems to amble along.

I know this isn't the Williams of old, and have accepted they are a midfield team, but they should be doing better than this. Their driver selections are a joke, their lack of seemingly wanting to keep a hold of good drivers too. Not all their good drivers left, some simply didn't have their contracts extended, or in the case of Hulk, dropped.

My feeling that head needed to come back, was only a temporary thing. More of one to come back, steady the ship, get the right person in, then take a step back again. Look how well it worked for Sauber when Peter came back, bought the team, brought in a new tech designer, and look at the results.

Frank and Patrick never ran their team by committee, but I get a sense that's how Williams has become. I feel Sam needs to go, probably Adam as well as Rubens. I don't know enough about Maldonado to say either way.

[HandyNZL 1]

Yeah, I guess if you use Sauber as a bit of a blueprint, then Head getting someone in again after steadying the ship as it were, might not be so bad.

Rubens would be a great tester these days, in the guise of a Luca Badoer...you can't just throw away all that knowledge...he really is one of the best out there, just his speed is not where it used to be, say five years ago, but that is only natural and to be expected. However with no testing through the season, he is in the right spot...in the car, and driving it every race weekend. At least he has the experience and the knowledge to know what has worked in the past, what hasn't etc...

I believe Parr is being groomed in the sense Whitmarsh was. Is he as good as a Whitmarsh...no idea at all!

[dribbler 6]

Good news indeed.

What news, exactly?

I raised this issue awhile back and a few idiots attempted to "school" me on it.

I'm assuming you mean in the Williams car launch thread? The only person disagreeing with you in there was me, so I guess you are calling me the 'idiot'? You imply that somehow your opinion is valid because it has now been justified. I repeat; what's the news? Has Michael been dropped by Williams?

And further to Andy's point, they haven't attempted to keep their drivers for the past 2 decades. Just look at all the talent that went out the door. Hill,JV,DC,JPM,Heidfeld,Webber,Rosberg etc.

Rosberg is the only one in that list worth crying over.

Williams will be great again if Head takes on a more day to day role. It could be temporary, but the interns running the show right now are simply not qualified or gifted in the Williams way of racing.

I disagree. In your opinion what would the precise nature of that role be?

[Argento Reloaded 1]

Williams hasn´t the resources it needs to become -again- a top team and Patrick Head and Frank are very old and new ideas are lacking around the team. A pitty. The inexorable passage of time is hurting both of them -and MSC too!

[Rainmaster 7]

I'd be very wary of making any comment about how well someone is performing without being involved in the team. It cannot be a single issue so there can't be a single solution (as I think Michael himself said). They need more resources, better drivers, and probably more creativity in the design department.

[Quiet One 15]

Well, in the case of Williams, in case you want to know more about the team there is a documentary, which of course shows only the Williams version of the story...aw well, I'm fed up with all that!

[Rainmaster 7]

Well, in the case of Williams, in case you want to know more about the team there is a documentary, which of course shows only the Williams version of the story...aw well, I'm fed up with all that!

If that's the same documentary I watched then I will tell you...

Well, as Harry Hill says, you get the idea with that

[Caesar 0]

he can still save his job by beating ferrari this year, it isn't very hard to do, and reputation of beating ferrari is indisputable

[HandyNZL 1]

he can still save his job by beating ferrari this year, it isn't very hard to do, and reputation of beating ferrari is indisputable

*sigh*

You really are twelve, aren't you?

[Caesar 0]

*sigh*

You really are twelve, aren't you?

it was more a sort of comparison between once top F1 teams Williams and Ferrari. why to point out and wonder about Williams misery when Ferrari, with much more resources, is in the same sh!t.

You could have start your thread with :"Another season, another cruddy start for sentimental favourites,Ferrari".

[HandyNZL 1]

See...it's better when you expand your comment...otherwise it just comes across as something a smart alec 12yo would say.

Ferrari is no way in the same mire as Williams.

Williams have been stuck in a slump for years. Not just this one.

Ferrari is still the third best team out there...given the right misfortunes to either Macca or RBR, then Alonso or Massa might find themselves on the podium. Williams need RBR, Macca, Ferrari, Mercedes, Force India, Toro Rosso, Sauber, Team Poochie Renault, and very nearly now, Team Lotus to all fall over for them to have a shot at getting on the podium.

And how likely is that to happen?

Williams have fallen from World Champs in 1997, to last of the established teams (excluding Team Lotus, Virgin and HRT that is), and they did it in less than a decade, because they have been in the crud for more than four seasons now, only now and then showing any sort of pace worthy of a top five finish.

To compare Ferrari with Williams, is like comparing the aerodynamic efficiency of a paper dart and a Eurofighter. Chalk and cheese.

If they beat Ferrari on track in Turkey, it would be a blip...not a sign that the Williams back room boys have fixed things and therefore be worthy of keeping their jobs. The problem is bigger than that.

[Caesar 0]

See...it's better when you expand your comment...otherwise it just comes across as something a smart alec 12yo would say.

Ferrari is no way in the same mire as Williams.

Williams have been stuck in a slump for years. Not just this one.

Ferrari is still the third best team out there...given the right misfortunes to either Macca or RBR, then Alonso or Massa might find themselves on the podium. Williams need RBR, Macca, Ferrari, Mercedes, Force India, Toro Rosso, Sauber, Team Poochie Renault, and very nearly now, Team Lotus to all fall over for them to have a shot at getting on the podium.

And how likely is that to happen?

Williams have fallen from World Champs in 1997, to last of the established teams (excluding Team Lotus, Virgin and HRT that is), and they did it in less than a decade, because they have been in the crud for more than four seasons now, only now and then showing any sort of pace worthy of a top five finish.

To compare Ferrari with Williams, is like comparing the aerodynamic efficiency of a paper dart and a Eurofighter. Chalk and cheese.

If they beat Ferrari on track in Turkey, it would be a blip...not a sign that the Williams back room boys have fixed things and therefore be worthy of keeping their jobs. The problem is bigger than that.

Ferrari has a huge chance to end in a place where the Williams is now, regardless their huge resources and tradition, and it wouldn't be for the first time in Ferrari history. I mentioned at the beginning of the season that i don't like that Italian flag on rear wing of the Ferrari cause to me it was a reminder of Luca Di Something and new Ferrari managment and their idea of all-italian team after Schummi era. They have managed to make all-italian team and after that it was straight downwards for Ferrari. I have worked for little companies where you have managments and bosses that are making more damage with their ideas than help. How can you tell your boss that it is better that he doesn't interfere and let us do our job? I think that Williams and Ferrari have same problem, bad managment with lot of influence on team. Big heads should get fired.

[HandyNZL 1]

Well if Ferrari continues going backwards, and I don't even think that they even have started to yet, and they do so for four, five years, well, then yes you can lump them with Williams 2009-2011. Ferrari are still a front running team. I know you're a fan of Alonso, and I know things don't look too peachy for a win right now for him, but it's not entirely a case of Ferrari suddenly being bad or anything. RBR and Macca are currently just BETTER.

Now, come the 4-cyl regs, Ferrari, and Ferrari engine customer cars might just find themselves going backwards. Who knows until they race with the engines, but based on their history, they haven't had much success with those types of engines when compared with V16,12,8 and 6 engines. Maybe they can stagger the cylinders just ever so slightly by a few hundreths to improve cam timing durationand just pretend that it's a V4....

[Caesar 0]

I don't know, but RBR and Mclaren appear to be like NASA, while Ferrari looks like Russian space program.