Clicky

Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Eduan

Vettel Equal To Senna??

Recommended Posts

Typical clap trap coming from a one eyed Kimi supporter :P

But I agree....it's just a different year, is all. He, with Hamilton, Alonso and Kubica are all at the top of the pile. Take away the fact Senna died racing in F1, and you take away the infallibility of the man...if that makes sense. He died and became a god of motorsport. Had he not, he'd just be, well, Senna, Uncle of Bruno, and winner of several world crowns....like Lauda, Stewart, and Hakkinen to name but three that won multiple WDC but survive to this day.

What I am saying is, why can't Vettel be compared to Senna (or anyone else compared to Senna for that matter)? Why is Senna so precious so as to be put so high up so as to be uncomparable?

It's the Dale Earnhardt Sr/Kurt Cobain clause. They are legends in their careers because they died during or close to their peak. If any entertainer regardless of career choice dies in their peak it is impossible to see them in any way but the superstar they left burnt in our minds. I can't say about Senna because I wasn't aware their even was a racing series called formula 1 during his peak, but I would imagine this is true for him as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before uttering my usual crap, I would like to know what we are actually discussing here (because these sort of misunderstandings are the foundation of most circular debates):

1) According to a mechanic, SV is as good as Senna. Do we believe he is? Well, he can be, as far as I know. Why not? The mechanic guy is in better position than I am to judge Vettel. I have nothing to prove him wrong. I guess he must have seen "something" (I am assuming that the guy actualy exists, that the wrods were actualy said and t hat the guy was not on drugs). Seriously, nothing forbids another Senna from showing up. It could be Vettel, it could be even Liuzzi.

Definitely Liuzzi.

2) According to a mechanic, SV is as good as Senna. Has SV show he is as good?. This is a definite nope. I have no idea what are the limist of Vettel's skills. But I am quite sure of what he has shown. And what he has shown was barely enough to put him in the same league as Massa. No, no, I am not saying he is just like Massa...read again: I am saying he hasn't shown much more. Others have pointed the things he has yet to prove. Don't even bother mentioning the WDC. JV has one of those too yet nobody compares him with Ayrton, maybe with Bruno...Of course, Vettel didn't have many chances to prove hinself in different conditions as he was blessed/cursed with a monster of a car. Monza with STR gives him an added edge. But he still has some more things to prove. He can still prove them, of course. He is young, RBR will not remain unbeatable forever and rougher times will come. And then, perhaps, I will be able to say: "That mechanic guy was right! Vettel is like Ayrton!"

Or Liuzzi.

We are discussing both of those! And a bunch of other stuff, as usual.

I would prefer these engineer quotes if they gave some kind of specific examples rather than just a general statement. How is Seb similar to Senna? Is it something in the telemetry? The way he steers, brakes, accelerates etc? Or is it his manner of working, attention to detail, communication skills, capacity for information, etc? Or is he as determined, focussed or competitive?

The comparison would mean more to me if we had that kind of information.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All I'll say about about Senna is that at the time he came to F1 and for the few years he drove, I honestly thought 'This guy is something else.' Race after race after race, from when he came to F1 to when he died, Senna seemed to pull out incredible drives. He could overtake, wring every last ounce of speed out of every car he drove and he could handle the wet - some of his best drives were when he was lapping 5 or 6 seconds faster than other guys who were sliding off the circuit.

Since then and especially since his death, he has become some kind of mythical figure in F1 and I'm not sure how much of it is down to people's natural desire for a great story.

If I compare my feelings about Vettel now to those I had about Senna at the time he drove, Vettel doesn't quite match up.

We can all think differently about this, because it's an opinion thing. We can all provide "evidence" to back up our personal point of view.

But comparisons such as these will allways be personal opinions and as such it's fairly impossible to reach any concensus

over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see a lot of parallels with Schumi and Vettel... both great at delivering awesome quali laps, both great at staying ahead of the competition through blindingly fast inlaps and outlaps, and both rather sketchy when not leading from the front.

However to say he's better than Senna, or Schumacher is stupid. He's not the new Schumi, he's not the new Senna, he's the first Sebastian Vettel, and we all know he's good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vettel Equal To Senna?

when you ask yourself this question for the first time, the first answer,the answer from your heart is 'no way'.but if you use the brain and start to analyse comparison in a logical way then the answer is still 'no way'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wasn't Senna known for brilliant overtaking?

I reckon taking out your teammate in a botched overtaking attempt doesn't quite line up.

He's good, and on a track with wide open space in front of him he might even be great.

After saying that though in my eyes he still has some things to learn to catch up to his teammate and even people like Kobayashi.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmmm. I saw Senna 'live' a great deal and he was fearless, operating in a zone where only handful of mortals are equipped to go. The point everyone misses is that Ayrton and his contemporaries where using clutches and gearsticks, weren't as fit as modern drivers and were therefore physically challenged to boot. Comparatively, they were just as quick as their modern day equivalents but it's pretty useless to make any comparisons at all because the cars weren't as good or reliable. Vettel is good but so are his nearest rivals - all of them. Hamilton and Alonso can outpace him, [in decent equipment] and Button can outsmart him. Senna was unreachable on his day with probably only Mansell who could be as aggressive or super quick. For those of you who were discussing Vettel STR season, here's a quote from Wikipedia:

After four races of the 2008 season, Vettel was the only driver to have failed to finish a single race, having retired on the first lap in three of them. In each of these three instances, he was involved in accidents caused by other drivers, the other being an engine failure. However, at the fifth round at the Turkish Grand Prix, he finally saw the chequered flag, albeit finishing in 17th after qualifying 14th and suffering a puncture on the opening lap. In the next race at the Monaco Grand Prix, Vettel scored his first points of the season with a fifth place finish, after qualifing 17th. He scored again at the Canadian Grand Prix fighting off Heikki Kovalainen in the last few laps for the final championship point, having started from pit lane. Vettel finished 12th in France, before retiring on lap one at the wet British Grand Prix after being clipped by David Coulthard and aquaplaned into the gravel trap along with Coulthard. He earned another point at the German Grand Prix, fending off Fernando Alonso and securing eighth after Jarno Trulli ran wide. Vettel retired in Hungary after his engine overheated during his first pit stop. He impressed many at the European Grand Prix by setting the fastest times in the first practice session and second qualifying session, before qualifying sixth on the grid. Vettel finished the race in sixth, two seconds behind Jarno Trulli.

Vettel driving for Toro Rosso at the 2008 Canadian Grand Prix

At the 2008 Italian Grand Prix, Vettel became the youngest driver in history to win a Formula One Grand Prix.[21] Aged 21 years and 74 days, Vettel broke the record set by Fernando Alonso at the 2003 Hungarian Grand Prix by 317 days as he won in wet conditions at Monza.[22] Vettel led for the majority of the Grand Prix and crossed the finish line 12.5 seconds ahead of McLaren's Heikki Kovalainen. It was the first podium and win for his Toro Rosso team.[23] Earlier in the weekend, he had already become the youngest polesitter, after setting the fastest times in both Q2 and Q3 qualifying stages,[24] and his win also gave him the record of youngest podium-finisher. Toro Rosso team boss Gerhard Berger said, "As he proved today, he can win races, but he's going to win world championships. He's a cool guy".[25] Hamilton praised the German, stating that this victory showed "how good he is".[25] The nature of the victory and the story of the 21 year old's fledgling career led the German media to dub him "baby Schumi", although Vettel was quick to downplay the expectation the result has brought, particularly the comparison with the seven-time World Champion: "To compare me with Michael Schumacher is just a bit ridiculous...It will be difficult in normal conditions for us to repeat this achievement".[26] He then went on to finish fifth in Singapore. In Japan, he finished sixth after being promoted from seventh after team-mate Bourdais was penalised for contact with Felipe Massa.

In the Brazilian Grand Prix, after running second for much of the race on a one-stop strategy, Vettel overtook Lewis Hamilton in the rain for fifth place on the penultimate lap to contribute to a thrilling climax to the season. He nearly deprived the McLaren driver of the championship before Timo Glock slowed dramatically on the last lap (he was struggling with dry tyres in the ever increasing rain) enabling both Vettel and Hamilton to pass him, earning Hamilton the title, and Vettel fourth place.

After the season had finished Vettel was named Autosport Rookie of the Year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is what Gorgio Ascenelli said:

Blah, blah, blah... and Webber could be considered like Prost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is what Gorgio Ascenelli said:

Blah, blah, blah... and Webber could be considered like Prost.

I hope that's a joke in jest. Otherwise what an insult to Prost. The Dr was a master and I feel a genuine equal to Senna. That's not to say he was better than Senna, but apart from Mansell on his good days, Prost was the only driver to push Senna. You can't apply any of that to Webber. Maybe Webber is a Piquet or I don't know a Berger perhaps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope that's a joke in jest. Otherwise what an insult to Prost. The Dr was a master and I feel a genuine equal to Senna. That's not to say he was better than Senna, but apart from Mansell on his good days, Prost was the only driver to push Senna. You can't apply any of that to Webber. Maybe Webber is a Piquet or I don't know a Berger perhaps.

Yes, Webber pushed Senna Vettel last year. In normal circumstances within the team Webber could have won it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Prost too.

Prost couldn't chase people down like Mansell could though over a single timed lap he could be extremely rapid. He always had trouble with back markers, if you remember.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Prost couldn't chase people down like Mansell could though over a single timed lap he could be extremely rapid. He always had trouble with back markers, if you remember.

Yes, of course but over long stints was better than Senna and Mansell and less prone to mistakes. Prost though first, Ayrton though sometimes after the event and Mansell always sunk the right foot and then all in the team crossed finger hoping the car last!

Jokes apart Prost was fast gentle with tyres and very good tester. Ayrton was raw talent and when he started to think more often he died. We will never know his true potencial. Prost in 1984 was faster than Lauda by a huge margin.

Vettel surely is a more complete driver as everyone in today´s grid is more complete because today cars are more complex to drive. Vettel could be in Ayrton league or not, you know life has many surprises and he is still a kid. Let´s wait and see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

I've seen pretty much every grand prix since 1976 - and NO other driver will ever compare to Senna for pure racing spirit. Jackie Stewart accused him of being the most dangerous driver ever, and its true that he has many character flaws. It's because of these flaws / failings that elevated him beyond logical reason . I think Vettel is the quickest kid i've seen for a long time, and certainly the quickest around today. However, he's just too normal and level headed to think that a win is more important than a life! all modern drivers are in mold of Prost, percentage is king now. - When senna died - he also inadvertently killed the era of severe risk! that's why we will never see the same again - because the sane majority do not want to see drivers risking any more than their pride.

In many ways it's more difficult to measure Vettel's talent - because he's one of many very good drivers around now, and we're lucky to live in times of such competition. Senna was always in a class of one, not in terms of speed - but in terms of character. Personally, I'm enjoying watching the evolution of Vettel - I think he'll be regarded as the best of his generation. However, to try and compare science and art is pointless, both have equal value, yet their supporters will always regard their champion as the best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've seen pretty much every grand prix since 1976 - and NO other driver will ever compare to Senna for pure racing spirit. Jackie Stewart accused him of being the most dangerous driver ever, and its true that he has many character flaws. It's because of these flaws / failings that elevated him beyond logical reason . I think Vettel is the quickest kid i've seen for a long time, and certainly the quickest around today. However, he's just too normal and level headed to think that a win is more important than a life! all modern drivers are in mold of Prost, percentage is king now. - When senna died - he also inadvertently killed the era of severe risk! that's why we will never see the same again - because the sane majority do not want to see drivers risking any more than their pride.

In many ways it's more difficult to measure Vettel's talent - because he's one of many very good drivers around now, and we're lucky to live in times of such competition. Senna was always in a class of one, not in terms of speed - but in terms of character. Personally, I'm enjoying watching the evolution of Vettel - I think he'll be regarded as the best of his generation. However, to try and compare science and art is pointless, both have equal value, yet their supporters will always regard their champion as the best.

I tend to agree in the main. However, Hamilton to me, is a driver who is prepared to go for broke, even at the expense of a sound result. I remember Monza (09?) when he tried to hunt down Button in an arguably superior Brawn, only to stuff it in the barrier because he was beyond the ragged edge.

I think you have hit the nail on the head as to why maybe some regard Vettel as 'not special enough'. He is very level headed; perhaps creating the perception that he isn't as pasionate as some. There is a part of many of us who want to see real character and emotion from our racing drivers, something Senna had in abundance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Senna´s mold is imcompatible with modern cars. You don´t have the huge mechanical grip Ayrton had. So, today drivers must drive like The Professor. With today car Gilles -driving like Gilles- won´t last a lap on the tarmac. The question is valid but the answer is wrong: they are different as times are different.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've seen pretty much every grand prix since 1976 - and NO other driver will ever compare to Senna for pure racing spirit. Jackie Stewart accused him of being the most dangerous driver ever, and its true that he has many character flaws. It's because of these flaws / failings that elevated him beyond logical reason . I think Vettel is the quickest kid i've seen for a long time, and certainly the quickest around today. However, he's just too normal and level headed to think that a win is more important than a life! all modern drivers are in mold of Prost, percentage is king now. - When senna died - he also inadvertently killed the era of severe risk! that's why we will never see the same again - because the sane majority do not want to see drivers risking any more than their pride.

In many ways it's more difficult to measure Vettel's talent - because he's one of many very good drivers around now, and we're lucky to live in times of such competition. Senna was always in a class of one, not in terms of speed - but in terms of character. Personally, I'm enjoying watching the evolution of Vettel - I think he'll be regarded as the best of his generation. However, to try and compare science and art is pointless, both have equal value, yet their supporters will always regard their champion as the best.

you should post more

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...