Eduan

Monaco

240 posts in this topic

Lastly - did anyone else catch Alonso's bow to the Prince when collecting his trophy? Absolute class! First he looked rather nervous before he came onto the podium, then he completely ignored the prince's girlfriend's advances and made his deferential stoop towards the prince (left hand behind back and everything - elizabethan fashion) before having his hand shaken. Brilliant. He either has a fantastic sense of humor of an utterly endearing humility in front of royalty. Either way, I love him for it.

:lol: Yes I saw that too and it was really weird. First, because of the familiarity he usually displays around King Juan Carlos (but Juan Carlos is vey informal as a King and, after all is HIS King). Second, because I don't recall having seen hime being like that on previous podiums at Monaco, which of course might be because they just didn't show it or I didn't notice. As for the initial nervouness it seemed as if he was unsure if he was allowed to go to the podium yet or if he had to wait as he was expecting some kind of signal. The contrast with Button hugging the Prince's fiancée a little bit too long was even funnier. Though I doubt Albert cares at all.

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So - just finished watching the race.

Agree with pretty much everything others have said.

Great race until the red flag. Shame we were deprived of what could have been a great last 10 or so laps.

Feel sorry for Maldonado, Kobay and Petrov. They were all affected by Sutil's crash and the subsequent happenings. Feel a bit sorry for Sutil too. All four of those drivers had brilliant drives mostly ignored by the cameras and were running in decent points scoring positions until Sutil lost it and the mayhem gifted the more established drivers their race places. At least Kobay managed to hold on to 5th and Sutil still came home in 7th.

Lewis had an extremely bad day at the office. He was back on the karting track with some of those moves and the after race interview was ill-considered. It seems to me that the press will always try to make a bigger thing of it than it is, but Lewis should really know that by now and not give them so much ammunition. He does not present himself well when the emotions are running high. Oh well - we've seen it before, we'll see it again.

Lastly - did anyone else catch Alonso's bow to the Prince when collecting his trophy? Absolute class! First he looked rather nervous before he came onto the podium, then he completely ignored the prince's girlfriend's advances and made his deferential stoop towards the prince (left hand behind back and everything - elizabethan fashion) before having his hand shaken. Brilliant. He either has a fantastic sense of humor of an utterly endearing humility in front of royalty. Either way, I love him for it.

very funny. did you notice that alonso only shaken hand from a distance of that hot girl that was presenting the trophies to drivers, while button and vettel kissed her.

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:lol: Yes I saw that too and it was really weird. First, because of the familiarity he usually displays around King Juan Carlos (but Juan Carlos is vey informal as a King and, after all is HIS King). Second, because I don't recall having seen hime being like that on previous podiums at Monaco, which of course might be because they just didn't show it or I didn't notice. As for the initial nervouness it seemed as if he was unsure if he was allowed to go to the podium yet or if he had to wait as he was expecting some kind of signal. The contrast with Button hugging the Prince's fiancée a little bit too long was even funnier. Though I doubt Albert cares at all.

I think you're right - he was looking for the signal to present himself to the royal retinue. But he still looked like an awestruck school boy. Bless - so lovely to see him in that light - if I were a girly my heart would melt.

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A great race with plenty to talk about. I felt as robbed as everyone else when the race was red flagged. The rule about working on the cars needs changing, but is presumably to accomodate any potentially dangerous damage that has occurred from the red flag itself (I'm thinking of Spa 98?). The robbing was accentuated by two things; tyres were going to be the key as to whether Vettel could be passed by Alonso and/or Button. Secondly, there were only a handful of laps to go.

Now, I must take issue with this;

Imagine if the roles were reversed in both occassions and Hamilton was the car in front and therefore the victim of these overtaking attempts. I'm sure he'd have plenty to say about both moves being too optimistic and desperate. He said in his interview that he would hold his hand up if he made a mistake in an overtake move that he got wrong.

What did Lewis do on lap one when he saw Schumacher lunging down the inside of him into Loews? He gave him room. So your example of role reversal is dissproved.

Hamilton's move on Massa was fair. I also think that Massa did turn in too early. Watch the line of the car in front of him and compare it to his. The move on Maldonado was not so well judged and deserved a penalty.

As for Lewis' post race comments? The response of a frustrated young man, nothing else. I applaud his confidence to be as honest as possible and his Ali G reference was funny. The problem is with the world listening to such a comment, not the comment itself.

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I think his moves on Massa and Maldonaldo were clumsy and a bit desperate and he had no right to complain. Schumacher was alongside Lewis when he passed him, Hamilton was nowhere near alongside when he drove into Massa and Maldonado. His comments after the race were ridiculous

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I think his moves on Massa and Maldonaldo were clumsy and a bit desperate and he had no right to complain. Schumacher was alongside Lewis when he passed him, Hamilton was nowhere near alongside when he drove into Massa and Maldonado. His comments after the race were ridiculous

I completely agree! :thbup:

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I think his moves on Massa and Maldonaldo were clumsy and a bit desperate and he had no right to complain. Schumacher was alongside Lewis when he passed him, Hamilton was nowhere near alongside when he drove into Massa and Maldonado. His comments after the race were ridiculous

So you call this nowhere near, I actually see Hamilton alongside Maldonado and having the inside line just like he did when overtaking Schumi.

EDIT: Just so you can compare both moves

is the one he did on Schumi with the only difference that Schumi didn't close the door like Maldonado did. Edited by Schumikonen

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I think his moves on Massa and Maldonaldo were clumsy and a bit desperate and he had no right to complain. Schumacher was alongside Lewis when he passed him, Hamilton was nowhere near alongside when he drove into Massa and Maldonado. His comments after the race were ridiculous

You have to be alongside another car when you pass it. Until helicopter blades or tunneling under a car are allowed, this will always be the default way of passing a car.

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Michael sized up Lewis from the exit of Mirabeau. Seeing Michael, Lewis gave him room..

schumionHamilton.jpg

Compare this with Massa. He turns in very early. One could argue that he was being opportunistic with Webber's wide approach, but it looks more likely to me that he tries to close the door on Lewis.

hamiltononmassa2.jpg

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Great images there! I think they confirm that the Massa thing was a "Monaco racing incident" which was both of their faults, rather than some massively ambitious attempt by Hamilton. Like I said before, the only difference between contact and a penalty in such a situation, and us saying "wow, what an amazing pass", is whether the guy in front is sharp enough to realise that not turning in is better for both of them.

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Great images there! I think they confirm that the Massa thing was a "Monaco racing incident" which was both of their faults, rather than some massively ambitious attempt by Hamilton. Like I said before, the only difference between contact and a penalty in such a situation, and us saying "wow, what an amazing pass", is whether the guy in front is sharp enough to realise that not turning in is better for both of them.

so the guy in front has to be smart enough to realise that guy behind him will not use the brakes?! by the rule of overtaking massa can change his driving line once. he chose to move to the left and close the door. hamilton could hit the brakes and avoid the contact. driver who is overtaking someone has much better control of situation than one who is in front. same thing happened last year with hamilton and massa in monza.

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so the guy in front has to be smart enough to realise that guy behind him will not use the brakes?! by the rule of overtaking massa can change his driving line once. he chose to move to the left and close the door. hamilton could hit the brakes and avoid the contact. driver who is overtaking someone has much better control of situation than one who is in front. same thing happened last year with hamilton and massa in monza.

How was Hamilton not using his brakes? I think you mean he was braking later. That's called overtaking. Are you saying Hamilton wouldn't have been able to make the corner, if not for the presence of Massa? I don't think that is the case. Massa moved over when Lewis was already in a position alongside him, and was already braking, so I don't think he could have backed out of it like you suggest.

The rules of overtaking are all well and good, the point is that some drivers act in their best interest and others do not. Rosberg, Schumi and Lewis all acted in their best interest as racing drivers when they saw someone was going to overtake them; they decided not to continue turning in and to avoid an accident. Massa seemed to see Lewis and continued to turn in, he even seemed to turn in earlier. It is not really a question of fault, as that lies with both of them in different ways, but a question of acting in your best interests. Once Lewis has gone for a move and Massa was aware of it, what good could result from turning into him?

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so the guy in front has to be smart enough to realise that guy behind him will not use the brakes?! by the rule of overtaking massa can change his driving line once. he chose to move to the left and close the door. hamilton could hit the brakes and avoid the contact. driver who is overtaking someone has much better control of situation than one who is in front. same thing happened last year with hamilton and massa in monza.

You can not close the door when you have a car next to you, as you can see in the image Massa turned in earlier to block Hamilton's move, Massa was the one who did the dangerous move here just like Maldonado did, when you have a car next to you, especially if that car have the inside line, the best move you can do is to allow the pass to be completed like Schumi and Hamilton did and if he did it the most logical thing is that you expect the rest of the drivers to the same thing and the Stewards to be smart enough to recognize who is the one to blame, watching this evidences we can understand Hamilton's comment not support them but at least understand why he said what he said.

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How was Hamilton not using his brakes? I think you mean he was braking later. That's called overtaking. Are you saying Hamilton wouldn't have been able to make the corner, if not for the presence of Massa? I don't think that is the case. Massa moved over when Lewis was already in a position alongside him, and was already braking, so I don't think he could have backed out of it like you suggest.

The rules of overtaking are all well and good, the point is that some drivers act in their best interest and others do not. Rosberg, Schumi and Lewis all acted in their best interest as racing drivers when they saw someone was going to overtake them; they decided not to continue turning in and to avoid an accident. Massa seemed to see Lewis and continued to turn in, he even seemed to turn in earlier. It is not really a question of fault, as that lies with both of them in different ways, but a question of acting in your best interests. Once Lewis has gone for a move and Massa was aware of it, what good could result from turning into him?

Hamilton said on the radio "Massa turned on me on purpose" (or something like that) and Dribbler's image shows just this but still Lewis was penalized for that, I don't know what evidence they use on their investigation, I mean if they really investigate those incidents.

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so the guy in front has to be smart enough to realise that guy behind him will not use the brakes?! by the rule of overtaking massa can change his driving line once. he chose to move to the left and close the door. hamilton could hit the brakes and avoid the contact. driver who is overtaking someone has much better control of situation than one who is in front. same thing happened last year with hamilton and massa in monza.

r u joking? how was hamilton not using the brakes? u make it sound as if hamilton ran into him at 100 mph. hamilton was braking and i dont know if u realize this or not, but they dont drive like u would when taking a turn in ur regular car. when they brake, they brake fully. so it's not as if hamilton could brake any harder once he realized massa was not gonna give him any room. he was already under full braking.

and under the rules of defending, massa can change his driving line once. but thats a stupid argument anyways as that only applies if the line is clear. if there is another car there u can't just turn into him. and like u said, he chose to move left and close the door (he closed the door early) so hamilton ran into him. racing incident, what can u do. hamilton could not brake any harder as he was already under full braking. and the person in front always has more control over the situation than the person behind, thats why track position is important. take vettel for example, he was driving so slowly but he was in front of everyone so he could control the situation.

also, if u look at massa's driving that lap, he was taking weird lines to begin with. for example, the corner before the incident he was in the middle of the track when he turned in and took a much tighter line for no reason. hamilton wasnt even trying to pass him there. the reason hamilton got close for the next turn is because of that stupid line that massa took. he came out slower so hamilton got a bit of a run on him. then massa closed the door and turned in early, which he is entitled to do, but then dont complain if there's an accident. imo, taking weird lines is just as dangerous as someone trying to overtake since the person behind has no idea what u're going to do. thats part of the knock on massa and i think brundle said it a few years back, he commented on how massa sometimes takes 5 different lines in 5 laps through the same corner. and if i remember correctly, that was a problem with one of the super aguri drivers - yuji ide. schumacher was saying he was really dangerous to deal with cuz he takes weird lines and people dont know what he's going to do. if u look at how massa was driving that lap u'll see the same thing, hamilton wasnt trying to pass him in any of the turns but massa was just taking weird lines through all of the corners. if u look at hamilton, he was taking the more ideal line whereas massa is just turning in at different points and driving erratically.

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also, alguersuari saying he couldnt avoid hamilton because hamilton braked too hard is kinda stupid too. the reason he couldnt avoid hamilton is because he missed the line, smashed the kerb along with his front wing and got his car airborne. obviously, u cant slow a car down with braking if its in the air so thats probably why he couldnt avoid hamilton.

that incident is clear as day, jaime sent his car airborne cuz he missed his line and hit the kerb real hard and ended up touching hamilton's rear wing. does that count as causing an avoidable accident? cuz he ended up damaging hamilton's rear wing and took petrov out as well. it was clearly his error cuz he ran his car into the kerb at an acute angle which caused it to go airborne. it may have been an accident but all accidents are unintentional. hamilton wasnt trying to hit massa, he was trying to pass him but he got penalized. so does jaime get penalized for losing control of his car and taking petrov out of the race?

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How was Hamilton not using his brakes? I think you mean he was braking later. That's called overtaking. Are you saying Hamilton wouldn't have been able to make the corner, if not for the presence of Massa? I don't think that is the case. Massa moved over when Lewis was already in a position alongside him, and was already braking, so I don't think he could have backed out of it like you suggest.

The rules of overtaking are all well and good, the point is that some drivers act in their best interest and others do not. Rosberg, Schumi and Lewis all acted in their best interest as racing drivers when they saw someone was going to overtake them; they decided not to continue turning in and to avoid an accident. Massa seemed to see Lewis and continued to turn in, he even seemed to turn in earlier. It is not really a question of fault, as that lies with both of them in different ways, but a question of acting in your best interests. Once Lewis has gone for a move and Massa was aware of it, what good could result from turning into him?

if you are going to overtake someone you can't just decide "i will go inside the corner , brake very late , put front end of my car next to rear end of the car in front, and he will have to let me through". what if the guy in front of you doesn't see you, or decides not to move aside and holds his racing line? then you are in trouble. if you look incident with maldonado

), you have to ask yourself: "what was lewis thinking? ". for me it was obvious that maldonado will not move. driver of hamilton's caliber should know this,and expect it. but still, later, lewis called that drivers stupid,or something like that. when i said that he had to use brakes, i meant more like"brain and brakes". he was punished because he was guilty and he apologised later to massa and maldonado. there were nice overtaking moves in monaco by other drivers, nice because they were made responsibly.

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r u joking? how was hamilton not using the brakes? u make it sound as if hamilton ran into him at 100 mph. hamilton was braking and i dont know if u realize this or not, but they dont drive like u would when taking a turn in ur regular car. when they brake, they brake fully. so it's not as if hamilton could brake any harder once he realized massa was not gonna give him any room. he was already under full braking.

and under the rules of defending, massa can change his driving line once. but thats a stupid argument anyways as that only applies if the line is clear. if there is another car there u can't just turn into him. and like u said, he chose to move left and close the door (he closed the door early) so hamilton ran into him. racing incident, what can u do. hamilton could not brake any harder as he was already under full braking. and the person in front always has more control over the situation than the person behind, thats why track position is important. take vettel for example, he was driving so slowly but he was in front of everyone so he could control the situation.

also, if u look at massa's driving that lap, he was taking weird lines to begin with. for example, the corner before the incident he was in the middle of the track when he turned in and took a much tighter line for no reason. hamilton wasnt even trying to pass him there. the reason hamilton got close for the next turn is because of that stupid line that massa took. he came out slower so hamilton got a bit of a run on him. then massa closed the door and turned in early, which he is entitled to do, but then dont complain if there's an accident. imo, taking weird lines is just as dangerous as someone trying to overtake since the person behind has no idea what u're going to do. thats part of the knock on massa and i think brundle said it a few years back, he commented on how massa sometimes takes 5 different lines in 5 laps through the same corner. and if i remember correctly, that was a problem with one of the super aguri drivers - yuji ide. schumacher was saying he was really dangerous to deal with cuz he takes weird lines and people dont know what he's going to do. if u look at how massa was driving that lap u'll see the same thing, hamilton wasnt trying to pass him in any of the turns but massa was just taking weird lines through all of the corners. if u look at hamilton, he was taking the more ideal line whereas massa is just turning in at different points and driving erratically.

if you look this video (

) , you can see that lewis wasn't using full brakes because they were going about 25 miles per hour and if he was under full braking he could avoid contact with massa and not go scratching him through whole corner. what if massa was trying to overtake webber? maybe hamilton wasn't the only person that was overtaking in that corner at that time, he should have count that in.

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if you look this video (

) , you can see that lewis wasn't using full brakes because they were going about 25 miles per hour and if he was under full braking he could avoid contact with massa and not go scratching him through whole corner. what if massa was trying to overtake webber? maybe hamilton wasn't the only person that was overtaking in that corner at that time, he should have count that in.

i've seen that video, theres nothing that indicates that hamilton wasnt using full brakes. in fact that video only proves what im saying. when massa turned in, u can see the full retardation of the mclaren. the left front locked up under braking (between 13-14 second mark). u can see it smoking right before the kerb. so it's pretty clear u're wrong about hamilton not braking fully. he cant just stomp on the brakes any harder as that would just lock up his tyres even more and cause an even bigger accident. remember, this is a downhill turn, if he just stomped on the brakes the front tyres would lock up a lot easier. he braked about as much as he could have for that corner and he was taking it at a speed that would have allowed him to make the corner.

the video doesnt indicate how fast they're going, and there's no telemetry to go along with it. so the part about them going 25, and ur assumption that hamilton could avoid massa if he was under full braking is no more than pure speculation. the video that u brought up dispels this arguemtn as it clearly shows hamilton braked as hard as he could. the reason they stuck together is because these cars dont have that much steering lock, after the point of contact, lewis had the wheel turned as much as he could, it doesnt go any farther. and thats what happens to single seaters in really slow corners anyways, if u hit the guy, u will stick to him until the exit of the turn.

and if massa was trying overtake webber he wouldnt have braked and turned in earlier than webber did. or at the very least he would put his car a lot closer. as it stands he wasnt even anywhere near alongside webber so i dont see how he could be making a pass there.

Edited by danktrees

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if you are going to overtake someone you can't just decide "i will go inside the corner , brake very late , put front end of my car next to rear end of the car in front, and he will have to let me through". what if the guy in front of you doesn't see you, or decides not to move aside and holds his racing line? then you are in trouble. if you look incident with maldonado

), you have to ask yourself: "what was lewis thinking? ". for me it was obvious that maldonado will not move. driver of hamilton's caliber should know this,and expect it. but still, later, lewis called that drivers stupid,or something like that. when i said that he had to use brakes, i meant more like"brain and brakes". he was punished because he was guilty and he apologised later to massa and maldonado. there were nice overtaking moves in monaco by other drivers, nice because they were made responsibly.

I think it would do good to you to read this article, while you are blaming Hamilton for that accident Sam Michael says this was a racing incident (which should not be penalized if it really was) and the reason why we don't ask ourselves what was Hamilton thinking is because I already answered that, he thought he was racing against proffesional drivers who know when to give room like he and MS did in the same race.

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i've seen that video, theres nothing that indicates that hamilton wasnt using full brakes. in fact that video only proves what im saying. when massa turned in, u can see the full retardation of the mclaren. the left front locked up under braking (between 13-14 second mark). u can see it smoking right before the kerb. so it's pretty clear u're wrong about hamilton not braking fully. he cant just stomp on the brakes any harder as that would just lock up his tyres even more and cause an even bigger accident. remember, this is a downhill turn, if he just stomped on the brakes the front tyres would lock up a lot easier. he braked about as much as he could have for that corner and he was taking it at a speed that would have allowed him to make the corner.

He actually braked so hard that he flat spotted the tire which can be seen in that video too, just look at the front left before amd after the accident and you'll see the mark on the tire left by that heavy braking.

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he made his decisions, they gone bad cause he didn't count in other drivers as variables in that equation,he paid the price

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So many wrong assumptions and ad-hoc arguments (that were never valid in the past and probably won't be valid ever again after this race) in this thread I don't even know were to begin disagreeing. So I will just disagree with you all, and come back once I get a chance for a night with full rest. :D

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he made his decisions, they gone bad cause he didn't count in other drivers as variables in that equation,he paid the price

That's a good point and it shows that the driver on front is the one who control what finally happen in any pass attemp.

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