Caesar 0 Report post Posted June 7, 2011 Jean Todt seems so small now...wait... how was made decision about bahrain? bernie called his bank, told them to deliver 500 000 000 $ in cash (all in 100$ bills) to his house, throw all money on the floor of his living room, invited jean todt,they both stood next to huge pile of money and then bernie said to jean: jean, look, this is bigger than us! we look so small now! so, it isn't their fault they are short. Sh#t happens! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yurp 0 Report post Posted June 7, 2011 Actually guys Bernie reportedly wants a new vote... Yet Bernie Ecclestone, Formula One's commercial rights holder, has revealed he was not convinced by the report and was trying to get a fresh FIA vote – if necessary by fax – to switch the Bahrain Grand Prix from 30 October to December. "Better that we move Bahrain to the end of the season and, if things are safe and well, then that is fine, we can go," he told the Times. "If they are not, then we don't go and there are no problems." Personally that seems like a more sensible suggestion - for his pocket and for the image of the FIA and F1. I think the FIA played this very badly. They should have been up front and said, "We know there's bad stuff going on in Bahrain and for that reason we will pencil it in for December, by which time we hope the situation there will be resolved. If it remains volatile until closer to the time then we may still cancel the race. Simples - no propaganda for the crown prince, no apportioning of blame or geting involved in Bahrain's political matters, just an honest appraisal of the situation and a sensible solution to whether or not the GP will be held. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yurp 0 Report post Posted June 7, 2011 Jean Todt seems so small now...wait... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Max Mosley 2 Report post Posted June 8, 2011 It's always easier to assume that protestors and the publica t large are the good guys comapred to governments. Most of the people here have no handle on the politics of Bahrain, nor the intentions of any potentially volatile protestors. In my experience, most political activists have no agenda with visitors or events unrelated to their grievances. Although scary, this should always be the assumption.I have seen protestors on the streets in a foreign land, eyes full of rage. But with a purpose. That's the difference. Western culture is good a pretending to care about things, get angry, but have that anger spill into things that are unrelated. Other cultures show more purpose. I mat eat these words (I often do), but I don't see any protestors in Baharain causing trouble. It's not in their political agenda. It's condescending and insulting to think otherwise and act accordingly by running scared. Glad you made your very good points! In this case, I do tend to agree with Adam as well but you are right about those things. And we also don't know what's being said behind the scenes. Treating Iran and North Korea as pariah states doesn't seem to have done much for human rights there, nor in Libya. Countries that we maintain a working relationship with are usually easier to influence and it might be that the FIA is using its connections in Bahrain to try to moderate the regime a little. Of course, we don't want to go to the other extreme, like with Israel, which seems to have our full support to do far worse things than Bahrain has been doing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lewisthegreat2 0 Report post Posted June 8, 2011 lolwut http://news.bbc.co.u...ne/13694628.stm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted June 8, 2011 Bernie realised which way the wind was blowing Left Todt to look the bad guy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pabloh20 1 Report post Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='#46' timestamp='1307545401' post='336029'] Bernie realised which way the wind was blowing Left Todt to look the bad guy. [/quote] Indeed. Bernie's speciality. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean Todt 4 Report post Posted June 8, 2011 Glad you made your very good points! In this case, I do tend to agree with Adam as well but you are right about those things. And we also don't know what's being said behind the scenes. Treating Iran and North Korea as pariah states doesn't seem to have done much for human rights there, nor in Libya. Countries that we maintain a working relationship with are usually easier to influence and it might be that the FIA is using its connections in Bahrain to try to moderate the regime a little. Of course, we don't want to go to the other extreme, like with Israel, which seems to have our full support to do far worse things than Bahrain has been doing. well said Muzza Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean Todt 4 Report post Posted June 8, 2011 Bernie realised which way the wind was blowing Left Todt to look the bad guy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookedon-f1 0 Report post Posted June 8, 2011 Did you just find out about bin Laden's death? As for the race, it's a bit contentious to be staging it when human rights groups are still concerned with the treatment of protesters; apparently people are still being attacked with rubber bullets and other violent means too (as late as today, I read..). Martial law was only lifted a couple of days before the FIA inspection, too, which is a bit suspicious. Not that I think F1 going there or not would make any difference, but I don't see why F1 needs to be there this year. I guess when it comes down to the balancing factor, the (alleged) 40 million reasons to go, outweigh the public image of F1/safety of F1 circus/moral issues/logistics of making the teams' employees work such a long season, etc. The WMSC could have easily voted 'no' on the latter grounds and not embarassed anyone (..if that's what they are worried about). In the end, money talked... Treatment of protestors?? You mean putting them in jail for running over policeman? You mean for attacking the armed forces? Blocking roads? Setting a police car on fire? Staging people getting shot... the list goes on.... People are not being shot at with rubber bullets or otherwise... are you able to state a source for this? Martial Law? The country was never under martial law, they were under a state of emergency... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookedon-f1 0 Report post Posted June 8, 2011 Here. I don't think many teams will go anyway. The UK Foreign Office is still advising against all but essential travel to the country, and seeing as many of the teams are based in the UK, they'll be hard pressed to get the insurance to go out there anyway. Then there's the issue of the season being so damn long now... Williams and Renault said they wouldn't go before, and I doubt much has changed to convince them otherwise. Obviously I made my feelings felt in a stupid way in the last Bahrain topic. I am a race fan; I want to see an event go ahead. But equally, safety takes priority and there's been enough evidence recently to show that the Bahrain Government don't deserve it. Complete cope out by the decision makers. Shows how out of touch they really are in the world when it comes to anything other than money. It'll do the sport no good at all to go there. The whole event is already very likely to be a complete farce. Just cancel the f*cking race! This has been changed and simply advises citizens to be on alert when in the country.... which could be said for many countries in the world in general Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted June 8, 2011 Treatment of protestors?? You mean putting them in jail for running over policeman? You mean for attacking the armed forces? Blocking roads? Setting a police car on fire? Staging people getting shot... the list goes on.... People are not being shot at with rubber bullets or otherwise... are you able to state a source for this? Martial Law? The country was never under martial law, they were under a state of emergency... Sorry, that was an error, I meant state of emergency. As for the conflicts, I am sure it goes both ways in terms of the protesters (in the way that conflicts do tend to escalate..), and Dribs made a useful post on Western perceptions of non-Western conflicts. As for sources, I am not in the country so I do not know, but there are many reports (by various domestic and international news agencies) that mention human rights abuses which are difficult to defend, such as the imprisonment of doctors and nurses who have treated protesters. Summary: http://www.amnesty.o...sp?NewsID=19494 To reiterate, I am not talking about the moral and political issues as reasons why the GP should not be there; I think that the FIA ignoring what's going on (with their flimsy report), and Todt being unable to explain why the GP should be going there when all of these other, non-Government led reports are coming out, is the worst option of all, and is not strong leadership. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yurp 0 Report post Posted June 8, 2011 Glad you made your very good points! In this case, I do tend to agree with Adam as well but you are right about those things. Uh oh And we also don't know what's being said behind the scenes. Treating Iran and North Korea as pariah states doesn't seem to have done much for human rights there, nor in Libya. Countries that we maintain a working relationship with are usually easier to influence and it might be that the FIA is using its connections in Bahrain to try to moderate the regime a little. Of course, we don't want to go to the other extreme, like with Israel, which seems to have our full support to do far worse things than Bahrain has been doing. :lol:Yay - something we can still disagree on! Normality restored. The FIA as a replacement for soft diplomacy! Who needs the UN when we have Todt! FIA's move is a self-interested one only. They would have shouted from the roof tops if they thought they could convince anyone otherwise. Other than that - agreed old bean. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yurp 0 Report post Posted June 8, 2011 Re who decides on or off - looks like Bernie's saying the GP can't be put back on without the teams agreeing - so that somewhat scuppers the FIA's vote anyway. But then again - who runs formula1.com? Because the track is listed again. Who knows what will happen. Perhaps by the start of September they'll manage to convince everyone it'll be fine for Oct. We'll see. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean Todt 4 Report post Posted June 9, 2011 My friend in Bahrain said that its not as bad as the foreign media says, things did get out of control for sometime but things are normal. Ofcourse there are some protests, now and then, just like in many other countries...Media did blow things out of proportion. why is the race then being held in UAE when it sent its forces to control the protest? However, I don't support nor am I against anything thats going on in the middle east. Because I am more worried about other issues that we are facing in my country. If we were to worry about the way Bahrain handled the protests or the ethics of their rulers, I am afraid that there are not many countries where they can conduct a grand prix. Why didn't Bernie complain how People in China are being thrown out of their homes in the name of development and not being awarded compensations? Just an example. Its just that some people pretend to care. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yurp 0 Report post Posted June 9, 2011 My friend in Bahrain said that its not as bad as the foreign media says, things did get out of control for sometime but things are normal. Ofcourse there are some protests, now and then, just like in many other countries...Media did blow things out of proportion. why is the race then being held in UAE when it sent its forces to control the protest? However, I don't support nor am I against anything thats going on in the middle east. Because I am more worried about other issues that we are facing in my country. If we were to worry about the way Bahrain handled the protests or the ethics of their rulers, I am afraid that there are not many countries where they can conduct a grand prix. Why didn't Bernie complain how People in China are being thrown out of their homes in the name of development and not being awarded compensations? Just an example. Its just that some people pretend to care. Yep - agreed. I think the reality is probably somewhere between the avaaz / human rights organisations story and the crown prince's. Neither would be interested in the whole truth and further, as Dribs said, there is little reason to think the GP couldn't go off perfectly peacefully. I also don't think that it should be the FIA's role to pass moral judgment on any country or take any political stance - it's a sporting body and should remain as such - otherwise (as you say) China would be amongst the first to loose a race. My only issue with all this was the 1.5 days of meetings that the FIA rep had with the crown prince and friends on the back of which he produced a report declaring bahrain 'peaceful' - and then Todt's arrogant comment "The information we have is that at this moment the situation is very peaceful in Bahrain. You should go there and have a look." If you are going to make declarations of peace, you need to do a bit more digging guys - a champagne luncheon doesn't qualify as indepth investigation. Anyway - it is what it is. I think the FIA shot themselves needlessly in the foot on this one. They could have just said, "We aren't completely sure of the situation in Bahrain but are under the impression that things have improved and will continue to do so. With that in mind we voted to pencil Bahrain back into this year's calendar for October in the hope that the situation remains manageable or improves even further." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean Todt 4 Report post Posted June 9, 2011 Yep - agreed. I think the reality is probably somewhere between the avaaz / human rights organisations story and the crown prince's. Neither would be interested in the whole truth and further, as Dribs said, there is little reason to think the GP couldn't go off perfectly peacefully. I also don't think that it should be the FIA's role to pass moral judgment on any country or take any political stance - it's a sporting body and should remain as such - otherwise (as you say) China would be amongst the first to loose a race. My only issue with all this was the 1.5 days of meetings that the FIA rep had with the crown prince and friends on the back of which he produced a report declaring bahrain 'peaceful' - and then Todt's arrogant comment "The information we have is that at this moment the situation is very peaceful in Bahrain. You should go there and have a look." If FIA looks into each and every detail, then there may only be two or three grand prix every season. Media only sells what they can sell, the failed to highlight the plight of many migrant workers in Bahrain (for some days) as they were a target for the protesters which in my opinion was pointless. The reason why FIA said it was peaceful is because, it was indeed peaceful when they visited. Some teams don't want to race in Bahrain only because of the date and hectic schedules. Because Banks from Bahrain and other Middle Eastern countries have actually invested some money in some of them, disappointing one them would make others frown. Actually the Political leaders, or top executives of car companies give a damn about how people are treated. If they did care, many of us wouldn't even be able to afford a cell phone or a computer. Because, everything we touch these days seems to be made in China, and workers there are treated like Sh#t, underpaid, over worked abused. That is the main reason why things that were considered as luxury items are affordable to many, these days. Infact, Todt was very reasonable. The people I know in Bahrain told me something like that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Quiet One 15 Report post Posted June 9, 2011 I agreed with Adam till his last post. "FIA does not need to take a political stance on this" Whatevr they do, they ARE taking a political stance. F1 is too intertwined with politics in Bahrain since the government made it some kind of a national display case to the world. It is not one more out of many minor events there. So whether F1 goes there or not wil be irrevocably tied to the events in Bahrain. Saying "Well, the lobster was great and we didn't see any deads from the window of our hotel room" is a political stance. F1 in China is a political stance. F1 in UK might not be seen as such as it has been there for ages so it is not directly tied to nowadays events. But it still is (in a lesser degree). F1 in USA is a political stance as well. Power carries its own responsablities. You cannot choose when to get involved or not. Choosing money and/or crew safety over any other concerns for the people living there is a clear political stance. Whether FIA agree or disagree is a completely different story. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yurp 0 Report post Posted June 9, 2011 The reason why FIA said it was peaceful is because, it was indeed peaceful when they visited. Erm - no it wasn't - there were protests going on when he was there. As for the rest - I entirely agree. As I've previously said - I don't have any problem with the FIA voting to reschedule the race in Oct. I have an issue only with their obviously deliberate ignorance. They could have got the same result without the bare faced lies, instead (bizarrely) they chose to try to cover the (at the time potential) fallout with spurious dismissal of actual events happening in Bahrain - a very silly and disingenuous thing to do. I just don't really see why they felt the need. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yurp 0 Report post Posted June 9, 2011 I agreed with Adam till his last post. "FIA does not need to take a political stance on this" Whatevr they do, they ARE taking a political stance. F1 is too intertwined with politics in Bahrain since the government made it some kind of a national display case to the world. It is not one more out of many minor events there. So whether F1 goes there or not wil be irrevocably tied to the events in Bahrain. Saying "Well, the lobster was great and we didn't see any deads from the window of our hotel room" is a political stance. F1 in China is a political stance. F1 in UK might not be seen as such as it has been there for ages so it is not directly tied to nowadays events. But it still is (in a lesser degree). F1 in USA is a political stance as well. Power carries its own responsablities. You cannot choose when to get involved or not. Choosing money and/or crew safety over any other concerns for the people living there is a clear political stance. Whether FIA agree or disagree is a completely different story. You are correct. Perhaps I should change that to "the FIA should take as much of an a-political stance as is possible". I guess what I'm getting at is that they perhaps shouldn't have acted so overtly as the Crown Prince's mouthpiece. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean Todt 4 Report post Posted June 9, 2011 Erm - no it wasn't - there were protests going on when he was there. As for the rest - I entirely agree. As I've previously said - I don't have any problem with the FIA voting to reschedule the race in Oct. I have an issue only with their obviously deliberate ignorance. They could have got the same result without the bare faced lies, instead (bizarrely) they chose to try to cover the (at the time potential) fallout with spurious dismissal of actual events happening in Bahrain - a very silly and disingenuous thing to do. I just don't really see why they felt the need. Protests doesn't mean there is violence ,protest are going on around the world, for some reason or the other as I am typing. Infact, the Bahrain letting the protest carry on itself is a sign of good gesture to boost the image that they are more tolerant than what is being assumed.... Jean recently commented that Ferrari and Force India were amongst the ones who wanted the race to happen. Its not double standards from just FIA, also from certain teams. Some of them are just using this chance to pretend like they really care about the people of Bahrain. Funny that even Max was concerned. He just used this chance to take revenge on Bahrain for sending him a letter to stay away from Bahrain when he got caught for Nazi themed orgy.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Caesar 0 Report post Posted June 9, 2011 Protests doesn't mean there is violence ,protest are going on around the world, for some reason or the other as I am typing. Infact, the Bahrain letting the protest carry on itself is a sign of good gesture to boost the image that they are more tolerant than what is being assumed.... Jean recently commented that Ferrari and Force India were amongst the ones who wanted the race to happen. Its not double standards from just FIA, also from certain teams. Some of them are just using this chance to pretend like they really care about the people of Bahrain. Funny that even Max was concerned. He just used this chance to take revenge on Bahrain for sending him a letter to stay away from Bahrain when he got caught for Nazi themed orgy.... very true, concerned Max - that doesn't exist Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted June 9, 2011 I agreed with Adam till his last post. "FIA does not need to take a political stance on this" Whatevr they do, they ARE taking a political stance. F1 is too intertwined with politics in Bahrain since the government made it some kind of a national display case to the world. It is not one more out of many minor events there. So whether F1 goes there or not wil be irrevocably tied to the events in Bahrain. Saying "Well, the lobster was great and we didn't see any deads from the window of our hotel room" is a political stance. F1 in China is a political stance. F1 in UK might not be seen as such as it has been there for ages so it is not directly tied to nowadays events. But it still is (in a lesser degree). F1 in USA is a political stance as well. Power carries its own responsablities. You cannot choose when to get involved or not. Choosing money and/or crew safety over any other concerns for the people living there is a clear political stance. Whether FIA agree or disagree is a completely different story. A point well made by Mosley. Bahrain wants to use F1 as a political tool to promote the image of stability and normality, whereas with other countries with questionable policies this is not so obviously the case. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yurp 0 Report post Posted June 9, 2011 Protests doesn't mean there is violence ,protest are going on around the world, for some reason or the other as I am typing. Infact, the Bahrain letting the protest carry on itself is a sign of good gesture to boost the image that they are more tolerant than what is being assumed.... Jean recently commented that Ferrari and Force India were amongst the ones who wanted the race to happen. Its not double standards from just FIA, also from certain teams. Some of them are just using this chance to pretend like they really care about the people of Bahrain. Funny that even Max was concerned. He just used this chance to take revenge on Bahrain for sending him a letter to stay away from Bahrain when he got caught for Nazi themed orgy.... This has decended into Maure territory. Who said anything about double standards from the FIA? Who said anything about Max? Who said anything about Ferrari/FI wanting or not wanting the race? Who said anything about the other teams actually caring or not? You're trying to make my argument into something it isn't. Read my posts and stop arguing against things I haven't said. The fact that you keep bringing in things unrelated to what I'm saying tells me that you have realised that the FIA's "report" and subsequent "Bahrain is peaceful, you should go there and have a look for yourself" statement was ill-informed and indefensible. Why you don't want to simply admit that is beyond me - it hardly the crime of the century and it's pretty damn obvious to everyone. You're not really Jean Todt are you? Also - don't take a few people's "wanting to appear concerned" (which certainly is happening - yes) as evidence that there's nothing happening. That utterly flawed logic. As for the time line and whether protests are violent or not... There are videos of rubber bullet / tear gas being used on protesters from the day of the FIA's vote. Upshot is the statement "Bahrain is peaceful" was both untrue and unnecessary. Simples. Also - quite frankly, I wouldn't say "Bahrain is peaceful" even if there was no actual violence. A lack of violence doesn't make a country peaceful. Now please understand - I have NO PROBLEM with the FIA's decision. I am not defending the teams who don't want to go or attacking those who think they should race. I couldn't give two hoots about Max. I am simply dissapponted with the awful excuse for "investigation/fact finding", the subsequent "report" and finally the pointless "Bahrain is peaceful" statement from the FIA. I think they let themselves down pointlessly. I've said the same thing in 5 posts - I don't think you want to accept that, so I'll leave it there - it's not really a valid use of my time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted June 9, 2011 Finally http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/92109 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
