Senna Vs Hamilton

[Insider 0]

Having just watched 'Senna : Beyond The Speed Of Sound' in glorious BluRay [and no English subtitles], I am finding it virtually impossible NOT to draw comparisons between the great man's career and the fortunes of Lewis Hamilton. Forget the skill set bit, [Lewis will never achieve the plane of consciousness that Ayrton did in a racing car] I'm talking career path here. Lewis walked into a world class team and was handed a WDC winner right off the bat. He came 2nd in the WDC in his first season and won it outright in season two. Ayrton bent a pretty crappy Toleman into some kind of shape, built a reputation, spent three years at Lotus in a decent car, gaining a handful of wins, lots of podiums and poles until he landed at McLaren where he took three WDCs in the space of four seasons. He then had two lacklustre years, [by his standards] at Macca and started looking over the fence. The electronic car had come of age and he wanted one. Indeed, he couldn't be competitive without one and he moved to Williams. In the close season, the FIA decided that many of the Williams innovations would be outlawed for the following year. The rest is history. Hamilton has had two bad years too and is also looking over the fence. He thinks he is the fastest driver on Earth and he wants the best car. He may be right in his assumption but is this the correct career move for him? If he leaves the cozy confines of Woking will he survive? Many say that Ayrton was a fish out of water at Williams and the break from the McLaren family made him feel extremely insecure and ultimately distributed to his demise. Personally, I subscribe to the theory that a rear puncture hurled him to his untimely and tragic end. Either way, I believe Lewis should be wary of leaving the family that took him in and now stands by him through thick and thin while he rants and raves but hopefully, one day grows up.

[dribbler 6]

It all depends on how much of an influence being at McLaren contributes to his operating level. It might be true that he feels he is doing them a favour because the car isn't quite at a level he needs. It may also be true that by joining Red Bull, his status may be affected by not only having to deal with Vetel, but having to deliver on his potential by maybe having the best car.

So, duck out of water, how would he fair? My view is that if he is given a car capable of winning, he would let the peripheral concerns fade into the background and concentrate on what he does best. His current frustrations of not being at the front would fade away.

The fascinating thing for me would be to see how he would deal with Vettel constantly beating him. So far in his career, he has had the measure (or at least equalled) his team mates. He has not had this to think about. Great car, quicker than his team mate, he would be an unstoppable force.

If I were him, I would ask myself the following questions;

1. Am I bored with McLaren, do I need a new challenge?

2. What is the likelyhood of McLaren delivering me the car I need next season?

3. How would I feel about joining a new team of unknown personnel and how would I be received?

4. Am I sure that Vettel does not receive preferrential treatment at Red Bull?

5. What are my career objectives, how many championships do I want to win?

6. Am I certain I can beat Vettel on his current form?

7. How much better do I believe I am than Webber?

8. Can I be sure of Red Bull's long term commitment in the sport and am I sure they will deliver great cars in the short to medium term?

9. Can I be sure I wouldn't feel like Fernando did with me in 2007 if things don't go my way against Vettel?

10.Would an objective assessment and maybe a change of my current form maybe deliver me the results I actually need, but still remaining with McLaren.

Lewis will leave McLaren one day. It's whether the timing is correct right now and it's a gamble either way.

[Quiet One 15]

Ahhh, finally an interesting approach towards the ridiculous Senna-Hamilton. Comparing career paths is much more fruitful than comparing crashes per GP in terms of becoming an F1 legend (not to mention that the only similuted I found lies in their helmet colours...is it because it's yellow? )

Anyways, I disagree with you there. I think he should leave Macca and face the cold, unfriendly world outside. And I think part of him wants it, too. He does not need Rihanna, people that gratuitously compraes him with Senna (favorably), or yes-men convincing that he is the greatest. He has the talent to be one. He just needs to excercise those muscles. For that, he needs to deal with frustration, to trust his strong points, instead of expecting for the team to excuse him for his weak points.

In short, he needs to grow up. Otherwise, he will be a waste of talent. He annoys me to no end. But even more that his personality, it enrages me that I fell that he could be so much more that what he is now. He is already one of the three exceptional drivers I recognize (The other two, obviously, being Alonso and Liuzzi Schumi), I still think that the Schumi of the first years or nowadays Schumi is a more admirable character than the Schumi from 2004, for example. Alonso is better now in these not too brilliant years at Ferrari (and his last Renault reincarnation) than the two times champion or the Macca version. Hamilton needs that process too.

[J.G. 0]

Ahhh, finally an interesting approach towards the ridiculous Senna-Hamilton. Comparing career paths is much more fruitful than comparing crashes per GP in terms of becoming an F1 legend (not to mention that the only similuted I found lies in their helmet colours...is it because it's yellow? )

Anyways, I disagree with you there. I think he should leave Macca and face the cold, unfriendly world outside. And I think part of him wants it, too. He does not need Rihanna, people that gratuitously compraes him with Senna (favorably), or yes-men convincing that he is the greatest. He has the talent to be one. He just needs to excercise those muscles. For that, he needs to deal with frustration, to trust his strong points, instead of expecting for the team to excuse him for his weak points.

In short, he needs to grow up. Otherwise, he will be a waste of talent. He annoys me to no end. But even more that his personality, it enrages me that I fell that he could be so much more that what he is now. He is already one of the three exceptional drivers I recognize (The other two, obviously, being Alonso and Liuzzi Schumi), I still think that the Schumi of the first years or nowadays Schumi is a more admirable character than the Schumi from 2004, for example. Alonso is better now in these not too brilliant years at Ferrari (and his last Renault reincarnation) than the two times champion or the Macca version. Hamilton needs that process too.

:clap3:..........took the words right out of my mouth.

[pabloh20 1]

Ahhh, finally an interesting approach towards the ridiculous Senna-Hamilton. Comparing career paths is much more fruitful than comparing crashes per GP in terms of becoming an F1 legend (not to mention that the only similuted I found lies in their helmet colours...is it because it's yellow? )

Anyways, I disagree with you there. I think he should leave Macca and face the cold, unfriendly world outside. And I think part of him wants it, too. He does not need Rihanna, people that gratuitously compraes him with Senna (favorably), or yes-men convincing that he is the greatest. He has the talent to be one. He just needs to excercise those muscles. For that, he needs to deal with frustration, to trust his strong points, instead of expecting for the team to excuse him for his weak points.

In short, he needs to grow up. Otherwise, he will be a waste of talent. He annoys me to no end. But even more that his personality, it enrages me that I fell that he could be so much more that what he is now. He is already one of the three exceptional drivers I recognize (The other two, obviously, being Alonso and Liuzzi Schumi), I still think that the Schumi of the first years or nowadays Schumi is a more admirable character than the Schumi from 2004, for example. Alonso is better now in these not too brilliant years at Ferrari (and his last Renault reincarnation) than the two times champion or the Macca version. Hamilton needs that process too.

I completely disagree with you on virtually everything

I agree that Lewis needs to grow up, but why does he need to leave Macca to grow up, why can't he just.......well.........grow up? Whichever team you could envisage him going to would gratuitously compare him favourably to Senna, massage his ego, etc, so I am not sure what would be different, in that sense.

Personally, I am fed up with sports people, not just in F1, jumping ship because the grass is greener. It's easy to be a team player when everything is fine..............

[AleHop 0]

Personally, I am fed up with sports people, not just in F1, jumping ship because the grass is greener. It's easy to be a team player when everything is fine..............

I'm fed up too. Whatever the color of the grass be, as we say hereabouts, you never know until you smoke it. It's easy to be a team player when the grass is fine.......... Errrmmm, no?

[Quiet One 15]

I completely disagree with you on virtually everything

I agree that Lewis needs to grow up, but why does he need to leave Macca to grow up, why can't he just.......well.........grow up? Whichever team you could envisage him going to would gratuitously compare him favourably to Senna, massage his ego, etc, so I am not sure what would be different, in that sense.

Personally, I am fed up with sports people, not just in F1, jumping ship because the grass is greener. It's easy to be a team player when everything is fine..............

@Alex:

@Paul: Bollocks. You are an idiot. Oh, no, please, take no offense as I didn't mean that as a personal attack. After all, I don't even consider you a "person" for starters

Seriously, I think that of course he can grow up everywhere, even at Macca, but for that you need both Hamilton AND Macca changing their ways. Macca has invested too much (not just in terms of money) in Lewis to change their ways. And sometimes a change of scenery can carry you a long way. Let's pick any other random driver: for example...hmmmm...Alonso

Results have been anything but flattering (according Ferrari and Alonso standards/expectations at least), yet the guy is fired up as ever. You may name a thousand cynical excuses for that (money, better than Renault, Massa as a comic relief sidekick teammate, etc.) but there's also the feeling that he is actually the general that everybody at Ferrari tells him he is. He feels that acting as a leader is exhilarating and Ferrari could use his emotional boost when they all have been carrying a sense of frustration during most of the post Schumi era. Alonso is a prima donna in many t hings as well, but he is also a hard worker and that is something he learned fighting at teams like Minardi or struggling with Renault last year, more than with his catfights with Hammy in 2007 or the idolization in Briatore-era Renault.

Hamilton needs to develop that side as well. Needs to be in a team were he is not considered a god just because some birthdright, but were he can earn that role as well. At Macca he will always feel that basic insecurity ("do they adore me because I am THAT good? Or because they have to?") He needs to prove himself, more than prove anything to the world in general.

Cheap psychology here but I think that it is precisely that basic insatisfaction what is triggering these year's prima donna fits. He needs motivation, he needs to be an actual fighter with dirty hands and bleeding wounds. Not some clown with drama queen declamations. Some unconscious (or perhaps more conscious that I credit him for) part of him is asking for it, obviously.

Another issue would be where to go, and that's when Steve questions become more than relevant. The problem is that there aren't many places that offer t he right mix of new challenge and enough potential to be good changing places without becoming too frustrating.

I have no solution for that, sorry

[pabloh20 1]

@Alex:

@Paul: Bollocks. You are an idiot. Oh, no, please, take no offense as I didn't mean that as a personal attack. After all, I don't even consider you a "person" for starters

Seriously, I think that of course he can grow up everywhere, even at Macca, but for that you need both Hamilton AND Macca changing their ways. Macca has invested too much (not just in terms of money) in Lewis to change their ways. And sometimes a change of scenery can carry you a long way. Let's pick any other random driver: for example...hmmmm...Alonso

Results have been anything but flattering (according Ferrari and Alonso standards/expectations at least), yet the guy is fired up as ever. You may name a thousand cynical excuses for that (money, better than Renault, Massa as a comic relief sidekick teammate, etc.) but there's also the feeling that he is actually the general that everybody at Ferrari tells him he is. He feels that acting as a leader is exhilarating and Ferrari could use his emotional boost when they all have been carrying a sense of frustration during most of the post Schumi era. Alonso is a prima donna in many t hings as well, but he is also a hard worker and that is something he learned fighting at teams like Minardi or struggling with Renault last year, more than with his catfights with Hammy in 2007 or the idolization in Briatore-era Renault.

Hamilton needs to develop that side as well. Needs to be in a team were he is not considered a god just because some birthdright, but were he can earn that role as well. At Macca he will always feel that basic insecurity ("do they adore me because I am THAT good? Or because they have to?") He needs to prove himself, more than prove anything to the world in general.

Cheap psychology here but I think that it is precisely that basic insatisfaction what is triggering these year's prima donna fits. He needs motivation, he needs to be an actual fighter with dirty hands and bleeding wounds. Not some clown with drama queen declamations. Some unconscious (or perhaps more conscious that I credit him for) part of him is asking for it, obviously.

Another issue would be where to go, and that's when Steve questions become more than relevant. The problem is that there aren't many places that offer t he right mix of new challenge and enough potential to be good changing places without becoming too frustrating.

I have no solution for that, sorry

Pah! I pour scorn on your laughable bollocks!!

On the one hand you say Alonso is as fired up as ever because he is the general that everybody tells him he is at Ferrari, yet on the other you say this is precisely the reason that Lewis needs to leave Macca. And this also proves my point that any team will massage a driver's ego, because they have a vested interest to do so.

With regards to Alonso, from a cynical point of view, he has little choice other than to be fired up. If he can't be fired up at Ferrari after they wanted him so badly and he wanted Ferrari so badly, then I am not sure where else you can go from there. I don't suppose that is the reason, but you can see the point of view. Also, he nearly won the title last year, maybe after a couple of years of not winning the title and not looking likely to win, he may feel slightly different? It's pretty much why he left Renault, wasn't it?

Personally, my opinion is that if Lewis cant grow up at Macca, then I don't see it being different anywhere else. You shouldn't need to have struggled at Minardi to be appreciative of a drive at Macca, or Ferrari, etc. Of course it does no harm to experience the struggles, but I don't see it as a necessity. I don't see basic insatisfaction as being the trigger for the prima donna fits (if he has had them), I see it as just being a bollocking prima donna.

You either have that type of personality where you can appreciate things outside your own bubble, or you don't. I am pretty certain when drivers have been vocal about certain situations, they have forgotten all about driving a crappy car in the past

[yurp 0]

All very interesting, but surely the most important question regards RB is "Do they want him?" to which the answer right now appears to be no.

As for career parallels between him and Senna. I think Senna's time in Toleman was exactly what Hamilton didn't get and needed. So - I disagree I'm afraid. Hamilton's career path hasn't been like any other driver that I can think of. Which other rookie has come into the best team on the grid at the time?

[pabloh20 1]

All very interesting, but surely the most important question regards RB is "Do they want him?" to which the answer right now appears to be no.

As for career parallels between him and Senna. I think Senna's time in Toleman was exactly what Hamilton didn't get and needed. So - I disagree I'm afraid. Hamilton's career path hasn't been like any other driver that I can think of. Which other rookie has come into the best team on the grid at the time?

Are you saying that only because Senna drove for Toleman that he got his great talent or his wonderful personality??

However, like you say and has been said previously, RB don't look like they want or need him.

[Quiet One 15]

Double pah! I reject your bollocks and substitute my own!

1) Alonso: I know is a touchy subject but he is now in the same position that Lewis at Macca (and he is). I think even the Vatican has recently announced that not only there is but one God, he also has but one Brow: Fernando be Thy name! Ahem...sorry, I disgress! Now, he also can give Ferrari back enough to (somehow) justify the whole Alonso-mania. I thought it was just exaggeration from partisan press (and that coming from a Nando fan!) when they talked about even the mechanics loving him, but if you read James Allen or Windsor or whatever you will notice that apparently even off the record, anonymous mechanics say that they feel "inspired" by Alonso. No, I am not talking any supernatural powers.

We have all seen he makes mistakes, he can be a prima donna and arrogant. But he is also a workaholic, a guy that demands a lot but also works a lot along with the crew That was a mantra repeated by every crew he worked with, and not something you hear about EVERY driver. Other drivers get a "yeah, he is a nice guy" or "does he actually speak?" He is a great driver, but he also is good out of the track. Lewis is awesome on track, but rumours of his words rising some mumbles among the Macca crew keep emerging (and I only read the British press so...)

Now to the bad news: Alonso might seem like a god now, but give him a so so season, or just another season after this with no championship and nobody will care that much about the car in Italy (even less so at Ferrari) and will start saying that some other (Vettel...or even Lewis) as the new great guy and Alonso will be politely but firmly shown the way out, whether he likes it or not (what would that develop is an entirely different story, though). You don't think so? Ask Kimi Hell, ask Massa! Alonso is today's god, tomorrow never knows...

2) Lewis: unlike Alonso, he has this situation at Macca. He HAS to be the god. They tied their entire pathos to that of Hammy. A poor choice from Ron, not because of Lewis himself, but because it is bad to tie a team to a driver. Ferrari after Schumi was like a headless chicken (yes, I know it was not just because of Schumi's departure but still). And Alonso hasn't even filled half that void yet. Macca is somehow in the same predicament now. Lewis needs just some limits. A reality check. But who would do that for him at Macca? Even more so: who will do that that Lewis would actually respect enough right now to follow his advice? The guy has just said that he only takes criticism from Ayrton for Georgessake! RBR trying to win their hearts from Vettel could be a good shock treatement even if too harsh for the driver and too costly for the team. Ask 2007 Macca for details. Ferrari? That would be suicided. Perhaps in a couple of years...No other team at this time makes any sense as a move from MAcca, I give you that.

And therein lies the rub. He should have been sent to a lesser team before sitting on that 2007 spec rear wing McLaren...

Hey, look! Actually we agree, though I arrived to your same conclussins through a ridiculously long, Nando-idolizing path

[Rainmaster 7]

First of all, I don't really like the Senna/Hamilton comparisons, because they only exist because the British F1 media latched onto Hamilton's admiration for the guy; so whenever any kind of link (no matter how tenuous) can be made between them, they will always bring it up. The only actual comparisons between them as far as I see are 1) Aggression/attitude to racing (and Senna was hardly the only aggressive driver there was) and 2) Yellow helmet

As for career paths I don't see much of a connection either, as Senna took the "standard route" of working his way up through slower cars, whereas Lewis landed a fast one immediately (he still worked hard to get it, no doubt..). Whether Lewis' alleged frustration is due to that lack of experience in inferior cars I am not sure. I think it is possible to appreciate success without experiencing failure; but surely experiencing the failures (i.e. inferior cars) before success could only make a driver/person better. Still, maybe I am remembering wrong but in 2009 the Mclaren was not brilliant yet Hamilton drove it extremely well without any memorable outbursts or errors (kind of like how Alonso drives the Ferrari now..). Perhaps that was because he had just won a world title and was still riding the wave. His title must now seem a bit of a distant memory, and with Lewis being well aware of history and the fact that generally to be remembered as a great driver you need three titles, he does seem to be losing focus a little. Being surrounded by idiots (celebrities; not the Mclaren staff) cannot help either; nor can the fact that Vettel has stole his boy wonder status in the sport and looks like he might dominate it for some time.

What does all this mean? Well for me, Lewis should stay at Mclaren. They are still a very solid bet for producing and developing a great car (Ferrari don't look that strong, although that may change, and Red Bull might prove an anomaly rather than the new Schumi/Ferrari combo..we hope). I also think a move to Red Bull would be problematic, not because of Vettel's pace, but another aspect of Vettel might be difficult for Hamilton to deal with: his intellect (and those who have seen the Senna film will know the reference). Vettel strikes me as one of the smartest drivers out there, in not only the way he races but his attitudes to life, the way he communicates with the team and press, and the way he deals with losing, and that is a big weapon for him. Anyway, what Lewis needs is to get rid of the celebs, knuckle down and work harder than ever, keep his mouth shut, and try to be happy with what he already achieved, while still pushing for more. Like Alonso. If he does that, it will happen for him.

[AleHop 0]

In summary, teams are eager to have the best driver and drivers are eager to drive the best car... Hamilton/Macca aren't different but what driver is better for Macca than Hamilton? And what team could be better for Hamilton than Macca? Alonso (would be the best driver for any team hands down but he) is driving for a faded Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro and there isn't a better place for him either. Red Bull and Vettel are working like a swiss watch and it's all happiness and joy for them, no room for strangers right now. Mercedes, Renault... No-no. Both Hamilton and Alonso will stay for a while in their teams, believe me on that. Whatever they want to do in F1 they have to try and do it where they are now. They can do it, they just need a better car. I suppose their teams can provide them with a better equipment, no?

[yurp 0]

Are you saying that only because Senna drove for Toleman that he got his great talent or his wonderful personality??

However, like you say and has been said previously, RB don't look like they want or need him.

See Georges post for your answer.

Blah blah Alonso blah.

And therein lies the rub. He should have been sent to a lesser team before sitting on that 2007 spec rear wing McLaren...

Hey, look! Actually we agree, though I arrived to your same conclussins through a ridiculously long, Nando-idolizing path

At last.

First of all, I don't really like the Senna/Hamilton comparisons, because they only exist because the British F1 media latched onto Hamilton's admiration for the guy; so whenever any kind of link (no matter how tenuous) can be made between them, they will always bring it up. The only actual comparisons between them as far as I see are 1) Aggression/attitude to racing (and Senna was hardly the only aggressive driver there was) and 2) Yellow helmet

As for career paths I don't see much of a connection either, as Senna took the "standard route" of working his way up through slower cars, whereas Lewis landed a fast one immediately (he still worked hard to get it, no doubt..). Whether Lewis' alleged frustration is due to that lack of experience in inferior cars I am not sure. I think it is possible to appreciate success without experiencing failure; but surely experiencing the failures (i.e. inferior cars) before success could only make a driver/person better. Still, maybe I am remembering wrong but in 2009 the Mclaren was not brilliant yet Hamilton drove it extremely well without any memorable outbursts or errors (kind of like how Alonso drives the Ferrari now..). Perhaps that was because he had just won a world title and was still riding the wave. His title must now seem a bit of a distant memory, and with Lewis being well aware of history and the fact that generally to be remembered as a great driver you need three titles, he does seem to be losing focus a little. Being surrounded by idiots (celebrities; not the Mclaren staff) cannot help either; nor can the fact that Vettel has stole his boy wonder status in the sport and looks like he might dominate it for some time.

What does all this mean? Well for me, Lewis should stay at Mclaren. They are still a very solid bet for producing and developing a great car (Ferrari don't look that strong, although that may change, and Red Bull might prove an anomaly rather than the new Schumi/Ferrari combo..we hope). I also think a move to Red Bull would be problematic, not because of Vettel's pace, but another aspect of Vettel might be difficult for Hamilton to deal with: his intellect (and those who have seen the Senna film will know the reference). Vettel strikes me as one of the smartest drivers out there, in not only the way he races but his attitudes to life, the way he communicates with the team and press, and the way he deals with losing, and that is a big weapon for him. Anyway, what Lewis needs is to get rid of the celebs, knuckle down and work harder than ever, keep his mouth shut, and try to be happy with what he already achieved, while still pushing for more. Like Alonso. If he does that, it will happen for him.

Exactly my point of view George. Thanks for saving me the keystrokes. To me there are very few career parallels between Hamilton and Senna but we're constantly reminded of those few tenuous similarities that exist because people love to talk about the "Hamilton = the next coming of Senna" analogy and do so by disregarding anything that doesn't fit the pattern.

It's like the Bible codes all over again.

In summary, teams are eager to have the best driver and drivers are eager to drive the best car... Hamilton/Macca aren't different but what driver is better for Macca than Hamilton? And what team could be better for Hamilton than Macca? Alonso (would be the best driver for any team hands down but he) is driving for a faded Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro and there isn't a better place for him either. Red Bull and Vettel are working like a swiss watch and it's all happiness and joy for them, no room for strangers right now. Mercedes, Renault... No-no. Both Hamilton and Alonso will stay for a while in their teams, believe me on that. Whatever they want to do in F1 they have to try and do it where they are now. They can do it, they just need a better car. I suppose their teams can provide them with a better equipment, no?

Yes, yes and yes.

Last of all. Button's move to Macca has has had a mixed influence on Hamilton. He's had to face facts - he's a great driver, but not that much different from his new team mate who has spent years in the wilderness. Perhaps Hamilton doesn't want to face that - the very real possibility that no matter how good you are, you can spend a long time in sub standard cars. What's different about being challenged by Button rather than Alonso in his first year is that Hamilton knows they'll never paint Button as 'the bad guy' either within or outside Macca and he's now spent a few years in a car that was not the best in the field. Perhaps Hamilton's own fallability is rearing up in his rear view mirrors and for the first time he has to face it. He might not become a three time WDC. It is now becoming clear to him that that is a distinct possibility. It's making him worry - hence the talks about unrealistic moves. His best bet -get Macca to clear the development schedule for the second part of 2011 and get an early start on 2012. (Although we all know that that isn't necessarily the path to success from Ferrari.) Second - encourage Macca to poach Newey or find some equally gifted designer (does one exist?)

[pabloh20 1]

Double pah! I reject your bollocks and substitute my own!

Triple pah!!! I laugh at your bollocks!!! No wait.............

1) Alonso: I know is a touchy subject but he is now in the same position that Lewis at Macca (and he is). I think even the Vatican has recently announced that not only there is but one God, he also has but one Brow: Fernando be Thy name! Ahem...sorry, I disgress! Now, he also can give Ferrari back enough to (somehow) justify the whole Alonso-mania. I thought it was just exaggeration from partisan press (and that coming from a Nando fan!) when they talked about even the mechanics loving him, but if you read James Allen or Windsor or whatever you will notice that apparently even off the record, anonymous mechanics say that they feel "inspired" by Alonso. No, I am not talking any supernatural powers.

We have all seen he makes mistakes, he can be a prima donna and arrogant. But he is also a workaholic, a guy that demands a lot but also works a lot along with the crew That was a mantra repeated by every crew he worked with, and not something you hear about EVERY driver. Other drivers get a "yeah, he is a nice guy" or "does he actually speak?" He is a great driver, but he also is good out of the track. Lewis is awesome on track, but rumours of his words rising some mumbles among the Macca crew keep emerging (and I only read the British press so...)

Now to the bad news: Alonso might seem like a god now, but give him a so so season, or just another season after this with no championship and nobody will care that much about the car in Italy (even less so at Ferrari) and will start saying that some other (Vettel...or even Lewis) as the new great guy and Alonso will be politely but firmly shown the way out, whether he likes it or not (what would that develop is an entirely different story, though). You don't think so? Ask Kimi Hell, ask Massa! Alonso is today's god, tomorrow never knows...

I don't find Alonso a touchy subject at all

I can well believe that mechanics find him inspiring, however I thnk that also has a fair bit to do with what he can do with the car on track, as much as being a workaholic, working with the crew, etc. Very much like Schumi used to be...........well, except Alonso's not as good at it

The real question is though, did driving for Minardi, being a test driver for year, make him work harder, or be less prone to prima donna outbursts? Or do you think he would have been just as hard working and have the same prima donna fits even if had he got the 2005 renault as his 1st car?

2) Lewis: unlike Alonso, he has this situation at Macca. He HAS to be the god. They tied their entire pathos to that of Hammy. A poor choice from Ron, not because of Lewis himself, but because it is bad to tie a team to a driver. Ferrari after Schumi was like a headless chicken (yes, I know it was not just because of Schumi's departure but still). And Alonso hasn't even filled half that void yet. Macca is somehow in the same predicament now. Lewis needs just some limits. A reality check. But who would do that for him at Macca? Even more so: who will do that that Lewis would actually respect enough right now to follow his advice? The guy has just said that he only takes criticism from Ayrton for Georgessake! RBR trying to win their hearts from Vettel could be a good shock treatement even if too harsh for the driver and too costly for the team. Ask 2007 Macca for details. Ferrari? That would be suicided. Perhaps in a couple of years...No other team at this time makes any sense as a move from MAcca, I give you that.

And therein lies the rub. He should have been sent to a lesser team before sitting on that 2007 spec rear wing McLaren...

Hey, look! Actually we agree, though I arrived to your same conclussins through a ridiculously long, Nando-idolizing path

I agree that Lewis needs limits, a reality check, etc. Or should I say, he needs to learn to keep things within the team. I am sure pretty much every driver has said the same things to their team at some point, you just do it behind closed doors.

However, I still don't agree that being in a lesser team would have changed much. Alonso has criticised his team publicly before now and he came through the normal routes. I don't think Schumi ever criticised his team publicly and he came through the normal route too. I still maintain that this is just the way they are, irrespective of comparitive past 'struggles'.

[pabloh20 1]

First of all, I don't really like the Senna/Hamilton comparisons, because they only exist because the British F1 media latched onto Hamilton's admiration for the guy; so whenever any kind of link (no matter how tenuous) can be made between them, they will always bring it up. The only actual comparisons between them as far as I see are 1) Aggression/attitude to racing (and Senna was hardly the only aggressive driver there was) and 2) Yellow helmet

Indeed

As for career paths I don't see much of a connection either, as Senna took the "standard route" of working his way up through slower cars, whereas Lewis landed a fast one immediately (he still worked hard to get it, no doubt..). Whether Lewis' alleged frustration is due to that lack of experience in inferior cars I am not sure. I think it is possible to appreciate success without experiencing failure; but surely experiencing the failures (i.e. inferior cars) before success could only make a driver/person better. Still, maybe I am remembering wrong but in 2009 the Mclaren was not brilliant yet Hamilton drove it extremely well without any memorable outbursts or errors (kind of like how Alonso drives the Ferrari now..). Perhaps that was because he had just won a world title and was still riding the wave. His title must now seem a bit of a distant memory, and with Lewis being well aware of history and the fact that generally to be remembered as a great driver you need three titles, he does seem to be losing focus a little. Being surrounded by idiots (celebrities; not the Mclaren staff) cannot help either; nor can the fact that Vettel has stole his boy wonder status in the sport and looks like he might dominate it for some time.

What does all this mean? Well for me, Lewis should stay at Mclaren. They are still a very solid bet for producing and developing a great car (Ferrari don't look that strong, although that may change, and Red Bull might prove an anomaly rather than the new Schumi/Ferrari combo..we hope). I also think a move to Red Bull would be problematic, not because of Vettel's pace, but another aspect of Vettel might be difficult for Hamilton to deal with: his intellect (and those who have seen the Senna film will know the reference). Vettel strikes me as one of the smartest drivers out there, in not only the way he races but his attitudes to life, the way he communicates with the team and press, and the way he deals with losing, and that is a big weapon for him. Anyway, what Lewis needs is to get rid of the celebs, knuckle down and work harder than ever, keep his mouth shut, and try to be happy with what he already achieved, while still pushing for more. Like Alonso. If he does that, it will happen for him.

I agree with most of what you say, Georgie baby, however I am curious about the possibility of experiencing failure before success aspect. In my mind, it's a relative thing. Ok, driving for a lesser team might give you a slightly different look at life, or it might not, I don't know. However, driving well in a lesser team and out-performing drivers/teams around you would feel pretty good I think, even if you are near the back. And if you are at the back, nobody is expecting otherwise, you just have to beat your team mate

Perhaps winning a title and then not even looking like you can overthrow a team, or a couple of teams ahead of you, feels like just as much of a struggle? I don't really know.

[Max Mosley 2]

Interesting thread. I don't really think there's so much for Lewis to change or sort out. Apart from himself, he only ever takes out guys like Massa and Maldonado.

From what I know of Senna - and that's not much - the comparisons are not completely unjustified. Imho there are drivers in every generation who only care for winning and for whom nothing else matters. Lewis and Senna strike me as the drivers most in that mould. Both of them crashed out of races and into other cars more often than other top drivers. Both of them wanted to win championships but also to win dominant races, and to win in style - none of this "winning at the slowest possible speed" for either of them. All drivers want brilliant wins but given the choice between a solid second place and a brilliant win, Senna and Lewis would need the odds to be more stacked against that risky overtake (or pushing too hard etc) than any other driver they raced with for them not to take the risk. A few other similarities I'd note are that Lewis sometimes mentions religion too, though much less so, and both wanted to drive cleanly and be fair - and both were happy to cheat when required, unlike Schumacher, who'd cheat even when it wasn't. Both also felt cheated by the stewards on several occasions.

I've often said these things round here and I still think that it's no coincidence that the top drivers tend to have those views. I suspect this is part of what Alonso was feeling in 2007: a complete refusal to accept not winning, or in his case, not beating a teammate. Needless to say, they are the leading drivers atm but look at Vettel. People are increasingly saying he's a bad loser, and he's winning more and more...

If you want a driver to drive the current McLaren very professionally to 3rd place every week then Button is your man. If you want someone to get fed up and take risks, even risks that are not particularly sound from a logical point of view, then of course you want Lewis. Were I running a team with a realistic chance of winning in the medium term, I would far rather employ someone like Lewis and tolerate his frustration and lost points when the car's not good in exchange for his performance when it is.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Hamilton must stay!!! He will win another 2-3 championship in the coming decade as only Mclaren will provide the car to compete againt his nemesis, the young german... and Vettel will win the other years, by a huge margin!!!

Nuff said of my eternal wisdom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and this has absolutely nothing to do with the forum topic, but anyway....

[HandyNZL 1]

All very interesting, but surely the most important question regards RB is "Do they want him?" to which the answer right now appears to be no.

As for career parallels between him and Senna. I think Senna's time in Toleman was exactly what Hamilton didn't get and needed. So - I disagree I'm afraid. Hamilton's career path hasn't been like any other driver that I can think of. Which other rookie has come into the best team on the grid at the time?

Off the top of my head...Jacques.

If I use my grey matter, I'll likely come up with more.

[HandyNZL 1]

Personally I think that the criticism of Lewis not having driven for, say, Minardi or Arrows is, frankly, just stupid, ill-informed, and a waste of breath.

A good driver in a Sh#t engineered car will still drive like Sh#t. An average driver in a good car will appear better, but will not be able to consistently perform. A good driver in a good car will drive consistently, and produce results consistently.

To put a new driver in a Sh#t car at the back of the grid, no matter how good of a driver anyone thinks that they are, just so they can be nutured into F1, runs the risk of taking a lower category champion, full of confidence, turning his headspace upside down, and producing just an average driver at the end of it. It teaches the driver nothing other than the race circuits. They learn little in terms of car set up, as obviously the engineers around them are not the best, otherwise the car wouldn't be at the back of the grid in the first place. Success breeds success is the maxim...which, like all matter/anti-matter things in the universe, means Sh#t breeds Sh#t.

Therefore the only conclusion I can come to is that all those who say that Lewis Hamilton should have driven for Spyker are just jealous hacks, be it because their own favoured driver never got an opportunity to race in a top team, or whatever. The top teams will chase the top talent. It is as simple as that. And if they have the top talent, then they will hold on to them. To farm out what you think is a good driver for your team is just dumb, when you consider that the same driver could be getting results with your team.

As for Steve's questions, well I'll put on my Lewis Hamilton hat...(which coincidentally is a Fernando Alonso hat too, in beautiful day-glo orange)...and answer thus:

1. Am I bored with McLaren, do I need a new challenge?

No. Button has provided me with a driving challenge. He is better than I expected, and I am learning from him. The car may not be up with RBR, but we're ahead of the others, generally, and come race day, we ain't so bad against them. I think there is enough of a challenge here to haul in Sebastian to keep me occupied.

2. What is the likelyhood of McLaren delivering me the car I need next season?

A very high one. We are certainly the second best car so far this season. Maybe Ferrari will come out of this off-throttle thing better than others, but I have confidence in the McLaren design guys to go in the right direction...they did it in '09, and we did it at the start of this season too. All things being equal, I have as much chance of McLaren giving me the car of the year, as does RBR for Vettel, or Ferrari for Alonso. Everything in life is 50% chance. What is the likelihood that if I go to RBR that they produce a car that is not going to win the championship, and McLaren do but I have left and miss out...just as high as the other way around.

3. How would I feel about joining a new team of unknown personnel and how would I be received?

Anxious. Nervous. But that is how we all feel going to a new job. Despite what the media would like people to believe, no team will self-harm when they have a chance to win a title.

4. Am I sure that Vettel does not receive preferrential treatment at Red Bull?

No, I can't be sure of this, but last year Mark was paid more than him as a retainer, so, I think this is just a media beat-up. Horner and Mark run a bloody race team together anyway, so I can't see how two people can work so closely on one hand, yet one stab the other in the back on the other.

5. What are my career objectives, how many championships do I want to win?

I want to win more than one. I believe I can. The competition is fierce at the moment. Alonso, Vettel, even Button and Webber, are all within a shot or two on any given day. Lady luck will shine again, and I need to be in a proven team to make sure I have as good, if not better, chance at the tittle than those others.

6. Am I certain I can beat Vettel on his current form?

Yes. He is out the front because of the car, more than because of himself. Jenson proved, once again, that under pressure, Seb can make mistakes. He is no more unbeatable than the next guy, all car's created equal.

7. How much better do I believe I am than Webber?

I am at least on par with him, and on any given day believe I can beat him. Would I get more points over a season? Yes.

8. Can I be sure of Red Bull's long term commitment in the sport and am I sure they will deliver great cars in the short to medium term?

I can only be sure of McLaren, Williams and Ferrari's long term commitment to the sport, and even that is subject to Williams economical footing...so honestly, the only two long term guarantees are McLaren and Ferrari.

9. Can I be sure I wouldn't feel like Fernando did with me in 2007 if things don't go my way against Vettel?

Yes. The situation is different. Neither of us is getting matched by a rookie. Button is as good as Alonso, it seems, as we are fairly evenly matched, however our personalities do not clash to the same extent as Fred's and mine did in '07, our expectations back then so completely different. I don't think it would be fair to compare the two, as the situations are too remote. If I were to partner Vettel, we would both be World Champs, we would both be proven race winners. It's not the same, so the expectations going in will be completely different.

10.Would an objective assessment and maybe a change of my current form maybe deliver me the results I actually need, but still remaining with McLaren.

Why do I have to change my driving? I am out there to overtake and come first, no? Do celebrities not turn up to Ferrari's garage? No. Does the media make a big deal about a movie star looking over Alonso's car? No. So why pick on me? Is it because I is black, init? And just because you can't take a joke that many in my generation know exactly where the line comes from, and understand the pretext to it, then you are just old, and like too many in this PC world, to quick to over criticize, over condemn, over prosecute, over lynch for things that are so minor, all to make some newspaper headline or to feel self important.

11. Where is Adrian Newey likely to end up?

This, is the most important question. Forget other drivers. Forget journalists wanting to build up then tear down sportspeople. Forget people being ok with celebrities and politicians having their email hacked, but woe behold if anyone hacks my own. Where is Adrian Newey going to go at the end of his contract with RBR. As is said in life, "follow the money", so must a Grand Prix driver, "follow the Newey". If he stays at RBR, then RBR must become and option. So long as they retain Newey, they retain the commitment to F1. If he moves to another team, then any move must consider a competitive, championship winning car will take two, or even three years to materlise. So I need to know his plans, before making my own. Perhaps I resign for fewer years. It gives me more options, flexibility, and should Newey move to Ferrari, then I could follow in a few years...I am still young...time is on my side.

[yurp 0]

Off the top of my head...Jacques.

If I use my grey matter, I'll likely come up with more.

Good point.

but look how that ended up...

Judging by the record books Jacques Villeneuve had a Formula One career in reverse. He nearly won the driving title in his debut year, did so in his second season, then went steadily downhill and eventually dropped right out of the sport.

from formula1.com:whistling:

[HandyNZL 1]

Er...but don't all drivers drop right out of the sport...kind of stating the bleeding obvious there, they are.

[LabradoRacer 2]

Hamilton's better than Senna - he doesn't claim that he's driving for Jesus.

[Insider 0]

Hamilton's better than Senna - he doesn't claim that he's driving for Jesus.

I vehemently disagree. It doesn't matter who you believe you are driving for - some Ferrari drivers believed Enzo was God back in the day! I am afraid for all his speed and aggression, in my considered opinion Lewis couldn't hold a candle to Senna. Car aerodynamics, telemetry and engine mapping in Senna's era were medieval by comparison with the car LH steeped into in 2007. Hamilton can't do what Senna did with a bad Toleman despite his best efforts and he barely stays 2/3 tenths ahead of Jenson on a good day. He's quick but he lacks the intellect that puts you in the 'zone' where Senna lived and reigned supreme.

[dribbler 6]

I vehemently disagree. It doesn't matter who you believe you are driving for - some Ferrari drivers believed Enzo was God back in the day! I am afraid for all his speed and aggression, in my considered opinion Lewis couldn't hold a candle to Senna. Car aerodynamics, telemetry and engine mapping in Senna's era were medieval by comparison with the car LH steeped into in 2007. Hamilton can't do what Senna did with a bad Toleman despite his best efforts and he barely stays 2/3 tenths ahead of Jenson on a good day. He's quick but he lacks the intellect that puts you in the 'zone' where Senna lived and reigned supreme.

All subjective, of course.

Not sure that intellect has anything o do with it. If it does, then surely holding off Massa at the last race when Lewis was in fuel preservation mode required a good deal of it. Also, re: Button. Are you suggesting that for Lewis to be compared favourably to Senna that he should be destroying Jenson, as opposed to only staying a mere two to three tenths ahead? I challenge you to comment on Hamilton without once again referring to Jenson. I would suggest you re-evaluate you opinion of Hamilton if and when Jenson actually beats him over a season. Something I do not see him doing anytime soon.

I still feel that that the mystical aura surrounding Senna puts him ahead of most drivers, when viewed with rose tinted spectacles. Answer me this? Where was Senna's 'zone' when he went head to head with Schumacher at the begining of 1994? I seem to recall his perceived ability to make an inferior car the equal of another being absent.