Monzahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

[yurp 0]

Chinese made bollocks in a handbag!

1) About the race: Sorry, I never meant it as some sort of fireworks. There was nothing "to see" there. It was something to feel (pardon the metaphysical romanticism a.k.a. utter tosh). You were aware that there were 5 WDCs battling it out, and the feel that they were giving the maximum. The boring part came from the mechanical means which, in the end, gave us more or less the same final grid as usual.

2) About Hamilton: I see most people complaining that he seemed too "tamed". I am not the right person to judge that as I am no fan of him so I cannot say what is the "right" Hamilton. However, the antagonism between "driving smartly" and "driving aggressively" is a false one. It is not a matter of black or white, but a matter of which version of grey you prefer. Having finished fourth is no dishonour. In Lewis case, the mere fact of having finished the race at all is an accomplishment

As Craig duly noted, it is not as if Hamilton didn't try. I don't see where the image of a sullen Hamilton accepting Schumi's position came from. Lewis was as aggressive as usual, he just didn't have the proper gear ratios to challenge Schumi even with KERS, DRS and a couple of missiles being thrown at the Merc. Even accepting that Schumi weaved, that can explain only a couple of situations, it can explain how Lewis could not overtake Michael at any other place or time. It seemed obvious that the problem was with the McLaren setup not giving him enough edge to dispose of the German. Button, with a different setup (and with the before mentioned difference in situation) overtook him in just 3 corners instead of 20+ laps.

Lewis needs to find a "personality setup" better than the one he had. No need to choose between maximum and minimum. The right balance between Sato's way and Massa's way can be achieved. And I think he could benefit so much more from it. Alonso is hardly a passive driver, yet how many "incidents" has he been involved into?

3) About Weaving and Hamilton: Last year. Hamilton vs Petrov. No penalty. End of story.

Yep to most of that. I agree Hamilton needs to find a happy place somewhere between balls out and castration.

I also agree that what did it for Hamilton at Monza was a very poor choice of gear ratio. How on earth did McLaren let that happen? Seems an utterly bizarre failure from them.

As for weaving & Hamilton v Petrov - there are 2 VERY GOOD reasons why that isn't the end of the story. As you know - I'm no Hamilton fan, but I will say this...

1) Hamilton should have been penalised on that occasion and Schumi should have been penalised on this one. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

2) Actually you can see the two incidents are completely different. When the car in front weaves and the car behind follows it across the track then the car in front is not blocking the chaser but instead trying to break the tow. It was obvious in that case that Hamilton made the move to the left, then right before Petrov. Petrov (my hero, so it pains me to say this) followed Hamilton's line after Hamilton took it. At Monzo it was the exact opposite. Schumi's moves to left and right came after he saw Hamilton move that way to attempt a pass in his mirrors. That is blocking. Schumi's moves across the track were in reaction to Hamilton's attempts to find a way past. Hamilton's moves across the track last year were made ahead of Petrov. If you compare the videos one after another you can see this quite plainly.

Remember now - I don't like Hamilton and Petrov is to be best F1 race in driving cars ever. But I call it how I see it.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Oh, sorry. I thought there was a gorilla 'round here. Carry on.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Oh, sorry. I thought there was a gorilla 'round here. Carry on.

shhh, you will wake him from his naps...hehehe

[monza gorilla 1]

Hello?

Just back from northern parts. Didn't see the race 'til today, so still cogitating. Someone said Vettel was imperious. They ought to look it up in a dictionary, because he most certainly wasn't.

Something's going on at Woking, and in Lewis's head. Maybe Sam Michael can fix it.

Mark and Felipe are surely on borrowed time.

Other stuff.

Over and out.

[dribbler 6]

Michael punished Lewis a lot more than Jenson (who drove past both brilliantly). Michael's car placement wasn't dangerous, it was just far less generous than what is deemed necessary by the rules. So yes, he broke the rules. Yes, he got away with it.

Lewis was cagey with Michael on an overtake last year. Seemed to give him too much respect. I guess not having raced him in his previous incarnation may have left an awe inspiring aura around him. Alonso and Button treat Michael like poo. They have been there before.

Vettel's overtake on Alonso was ballsy. The rest of his afternoon was just pure Moo Rouge dominance.

Normal Schumacher service will be resumed for the last races. A Bit like Force India's impressive little spike in form at Spa and Monza in the hands of Fisico. Where is he again now? Oh yeah....

[Delta 0]

Clearly no it is not, however Lewis has a ****ing dreadful attitude and arrogance that p**ses a lot of people off and I think it is this more than anything else which gets him into trouble. He is a spoilt brat! However saying that, I will defend him somewhat here because Schumi undeniably weaved and it's unfair to punish one and not the other.

Can I just point out Button is ahead of Lewis in the championship... So much for him going to McLaren and getting raped anally by Hamilton, it appears he is after all just as good... and since Hamilton is rated the best along with Alonso and Vettel (arguably still not convinced of his race craft, one over take does not convince me!) then that means Button is also in the absolute top tier of drivers! I think it's only fair you people of this forum finally start giving the guy the recognition he deserves!!!

I personally don't doubt Jenson's ability, but the amount of non finishes Lewis has had this year has really cost him, I still believe that Jenson needs to up his game in qualifying however. But having them push each other will be great for the team

[pabloh20 1]

Michael punished Lewis a lot more than Jenson (who drove past both brilliantly). Michael's car placement wasn't dangerous, it was just far less generous than what is deemed necessary by the rules. So yes, he broke the rules. Yes, he got away with it.

Lewis was cagey with Michael on an overtake last year. Seemed to give him too much respect. I guess not having raced him in his previous incarnation may have left an awe inspiring aura around him. Alonso and Button treat Michael like poo. They have been there before.Vettel's overtake on Alonso was ballsy. The rest of his afternoon was just pure Moo Rouge dominance.

Normal Schumacher service will be resumed for the last races. A Bit like Force India's impressive little spike in form at Spa and Monza in the hands of Fisico. Where is he again now? Oh yeah....

Yep, very true, he does seem to be a it hesitant with regards to Schumi. I suspect a Lewis who wanted to finish the race really didn't want to have to try and get past him

Interesting thought about Schumi's performances. I actually think he as got his jo back. It's like having your mojo back, but only half as good

[Rainmaster 7]

Okay so I recovered from my hangover and gained some motivation to post. From what I can remember:

Schumi's driving was a fine line between aggressive blocking to brilliant defending. Other drivers have certainly been penalised for less, but we know the officials are inconsistent. But I do wonder whether the stewards always warn a driver to change their behaviour like they did with Mercedes/Schumi. I cannot recall another instance where the stewards did that. It seems like a service which would be nice to have, as it effectively says "you can do that for a bit, until we tell you not to". That's counterintuitive and undermines the existing rule, which already defines what you can and can't do and no warning system is mentioned in the rules (and surely no matter the rule if it warrants a warning it warrants some form of punishment). This for me is the real issue. Aside from that, it was a battle I enjoyed.

On Lewis' attacking, I do think he just wanted to finish, but I also don't think that particular mindset made any difference to his attack on Schumi. It is possible to be aggressive and still finish races too. But any move Lewis made in that race would have been a lunge, and almost certainly not a successful one with a MS in defensive mode. Lewis' problem was Schumi's aggressive antics and a lack of top speed; not his mindset. As to why JB managed a pass, I think perhaps tyres contributed (Schumi's were going or gone from driving all over the track..) and maybe Jenson had better gearing. I also like the idea somebody mentioned that JB has raced Schumi before and may see him differently to Lewis, although again, anything in Lewis' mind was for me, the least of the reasons he couldn't get past for so long.

On Button versus Hamilton as a whole: yes Button is performing better at the moment and he certainly seems to have more of an inner peace, and better state of mind. But it's worth remembering he isn't beating a Lewis who is at his best, as Lewis made many mistakes/got involved in too many incidents this year. When he beats a calm, happy Hamilton who isn't frustrated and distracted, then I will jump on the "Button is better than Hamilton!" bandwagon Until then, all there is to say is that Button at his best is better than Hamilton at his worst, which is hardly anything to brag about. This isn't to take anything away from JB, who is definitely having a much more impressive year than ever before (including 2009), and has added to his "smooth, thinking driver" reputation with some great controlled aggression, making the most of all the drivers from the new rules creating passing opportunities. Once he stops being a "paracarro" in qualifying he could be difficult to beat!

On Vettel: almost every race it becomes harder and harder to justifiably criticise him. Yes, his overtake on Alonso was helped by having a great car. Yes, there have been better overtakes in the history of Grand Prix racing. Those things hardly diminish a ballsy, strong pass for the lead which shows a will to win and the skills to do it. What's funny is that had he lost control on the grass people would be criticising him for going for the move at all, and in that circumstance those criticisms would be just as unfair as the ones saying he can't race.

Other than that, Alg-etc was impressive and Senna did well too. Liuzzi had fun doing some bowling with an F1 car Red Bull had a "trough" for a few races but winning Spa and Monza means they look stronger than ever for the remainder of the season.

[pabloh20 1]

Okay so I recovered from my hangover and gained some motivation to post. From what I can remember:

Schumi's driving was a fine line between aggressive blocking to brilliant defending. Other drivers have certainly been penalised for less, but we know the officials are inconsistent. But I do wonder whether the stewards always warn a driver to change their behaviour like they did with Mercedes/Schumi. I cannot recall another instance where the stewards did that. It seems like a service which would be nice to have, as it effectively says "you can do that for a bit, until we tell you not to". That's counterintuitive and undermines the existing rule, which already defines what you can and can't do and no warning system is mentioned in the rules (and surely no matter the rule if it warrants a warning it warrants some form of punishment). This for me is the real issue. Aside from that, it was a battle I enjoyed.

On Lewis' attacking, I do think he just wanted to finish, but I also don't think that particular mindset made any difference to his attack on Schumi. It is possible to be aggressive and still finish races too. But any move Lewis made in that race would have been a lunge, and almost certainly not a successful one with a MS in defensive mode. Lewis' problem was Schumi's aggressive antics and a lack of top speed; not his mindset. As to why JB managed a pass, I think perhaps tyres contributed (Schumi's were going or gone from driving all over the track..) and maybe Jenson had better gearing. I also like the idea somebody mentioned that JB has raced Schumi before and may see him differently to Lewis, although again, anything in Lewis' mind was for me, the least of the reasons he couldn't get past for so long.

On Button versus Hamilton as a whole: yes Button is performing better at the moment and he certainly seems to have more of an inner peace, and better state of mind. But it's worth remembering he isn't beating a Lewis who is at his best, as Lewis made many mistakes/got involved in too many incidents this year. When he beats a calm, happy Hamilton who isn't frustrated and distracted, then I will jump on the "Button is better than Hamilton!" bandwagon Until then, all there is to say is that Button at his best is better than Hamilton at his worst, which is hardly anything to brag about. This isn't to take anything away from JB, who is definitely having a much more impressive year than ever before (including 2009), and has added to his "smooth, thinking driver" reputation with some great controlled aggression, making the most of all the drivers from the new rules creating passing opportunities. Once he stops being a "paracarro" in qualifying he could be difficult to beat!

On Vettel: almost every race it becomes harder and harder to justifiably criticise him. Yes, his overtake on Alonso was helped by having a great car. Yes, there have been better overtakes in the history of Grand Prix racing. Those things hardly diminish a ballsy, strong pass for the lead which shows a will to win and the skills to do it. What's funny is that had he lost control on the grass people would be criticising him for going for the move at all, and in that circumstance those criticisms would be just as unfair as the ones saying he can't race.

Other than that, Alg-etc was impressive and Senna did well too. Liuzzi had fun doing some bowling with an F1 car Red Bull had a "trough" for a few races but winning Spa and Monza means they look stronger than ever for the remainder of the season.

Excellent.

Although on the Schumi-rule-warning, I agree it seems unusual, unless it has been done before and we have just not heard it??

I suspect it's no different to a footy ref saying to a player look you've made a few marginal tackles now, the next one will be a yellow card. As written in the law, he could issue a yellow card without a warning, but he is just applying common sense/leniency, whatever you want to call it. I wouldn't mind this in F1 in some instances, although it's probably a bit more difficult to police and if said warned driver then causes a bad crash, would probably generate a fair bit of controversy.

[dribbler 6]

It's like having your mojo back, but only half as good

Thanks for the clarification. I thought you were implying he's a jucker, as opposed to a full mother jucker.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Thanks for the clarification. I thought you were implying he's a jucker, as opposed to a full mother jucker.

Saw that flick. One of Kubrick's best.

[Jenson_Rules 0]

I personally don't doubt Jenson's ability, but the amount of non finishes Lewis has had this year has really cost him, I still believe that Jenson needs to up his game in qualifying however. But having them push each other will be great for the team

2 non finishes, the exact same amount as Jenson...

[Autumnpuma 0]

2 non finishes, the exact same amount as Jenson...

And there the similarities stop.

[Rainmaster 7]

Excellent.

Although on the Schumi-rule-warning, I agree it seems unusual, unless it has been done before and we have just not heard it??

I suspect it's no different to a footy ref saying to a player look you've made a few marginal tackles now, the next one will be a yellow card. As written in the law, he could issue a yellow card without a warning, but he is just applying common sense/leniency, whatever you want to call it. I wouldn't mind this in F1 in some instances, although it's probably a bit more difficult to police and if said warned driver then causes a bad crash, would probably generate a fair bit of controversy.

That could be the case, yeah, just seems odd doesn't it.

I'm not completely against a warning system in some situations as it could make for better races rather than ruining things with a drive through. But if the blocking rule is there for safety reasons (I'm guessing it is..) then it seems wrong to give a "stop doing that" kind of warning for something which the rulebook considers dangerous (i.e. I could understand if the officials [via Brawn] were saying "don't go any further with your defending", but it was more of a "stop doing that immediately" command. As in, he'd already crossed the line.). It's basically saying "we think that is dangerous but we'll let you do it a few times before we penalise you" which doesn't make sense for the reason you mentioned, and isn't much of a deterrent if it became a trend.

Still happy he wasn't penalised on this occasion though, the old fart needs a little leniency these days

[AleHop 0]

As to why JB managed a pass, I think perhaps tyres contributed (Schumi's were going or gone from driving all over the track..) and maybe Jenson had better gearing. I also like the idea somebody mentioned that JB has raced Schumi before and may see him differently to Lewis, although again, anything in Lewis' mind was for me, the least of the reasons he couldn't get past for so long.

I think it was Pedro de la Rosa who said Button managed to pass Schumacher because he had been saving KERS while both Hamilton and Schumacher run out of it at that point. Button knew what he was doing, he managed a pass out of the blue and he knew it was a now or never situation. Schumacher held Hamilton without really breaking the rules. He was nearly breaking the rules which is a good thing. They should all be nearly breaking the rules, nearly crashing, nearly...

[monza gorilla 1]

Hmm. Saw an on screen graphic doodad during the race that appears to back that up. The KERS thingy, that is.

As for Schumi and his robust defending, Derek Daly has now said that there should have been a penalty but that they were looking at something far less important at the time.

[AleHop 0]

Hmm. Saw an on screen graphic doodad during the race that appears to back that up. The KERS thingy, that is.

As for Schumi and his robust defending, Derek Daly has now said that there should have been a penalty but that they were looking at something far less important at the time.

It seems most F1 people think Schumacher broke the rules. Probably I look at live timing too much during the race or they show too many ad breaks un Spain.

[monza gorilla 1]

Maurice Hamilton has a column at GrandPrix.com about Schumacher at Monza. Not a bad read, and I tend to agree.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Breaking the rules or doing something wrong?

Mikey probably broke the rules.

Mikey did nothing wrong.

I've always thought the rule against blocking was absurd and led to inferior racing. I've seen nothing to change my mind on that. 'One move to defend your position'...what are we playing, chess? Let the chess boys argue over 'moves' and let the men race the cars.

[monza gorilla 1]

On the one hand, true, and on the other hand, maybe, and on the third hand, yes but with reservations and caveats.

Edit: Putting your car where the other guy wants to be, fine. Putting them out to pasture, no.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Which raises an interesting question....why are there pastures on a racetrack anyway? Dig those damned things up and put some proper tarmac. There. Safety issue solved. Race on.

[monza gorilla 1]

Yes, and then they could paint them green and, oh, wait a minute.

[dribbler 6]

Saw that flick. One of Kubrick's best.

Time for some idiot to update one of his, me thinks. The Digital Orange?

Breaking the rules or doing something wrong?

Mikey probably broke the rules.

Mikey did nothing wrong.

I've always thought the rule against blocking was absurd and led to inferior racing. I've seen nothing to change my mind on that. 'One move to defend your position'...what are we playing, chess? Let the chess boys argue over 'moves' and let the men race the cars.

And yet as a stout defender of all things Schumi, I cringed with embaressment. Lewis is no slouch in the overtaking stakes, but he must have wondered if he could ever got past and lived to tell the tale. There has to be a mutual respect and trust. Look at the faith Mark put in Fernando at Eau Rouge this year. Does that make Fernando less of a racer? No, he just knows the safe and proper thing to do when it's that close. Michael was border line dirty, in my view.

On the one hand, true, and on the other hand, maybe, and on the third hand, yes but with reservations and caveats.

Edit: Putting your car where the other guy wants to be, fine. Putting them out to pasture, no.

Indeed. That, and just how transparent Michael's feelings are to his fellow racers. Seemed like he wanted to put Lewis in his place. That place could have so easily have been in a box underneath the grass. Still, at least he could have kept Rubens company if that other dubious move at Hungary had not worked out so well too.

Which raises an interesting question....why are there pastures on a racetrack anyway? Dig those damned things up and put some proper tarmac. There. Safety issue solved. Race on.

You surprise me. The grass is the only thing that stops them driving over every goddam line of every goddam corner. Let the grass continue to police the lines and keep the peddalers honest.

[Autumnpuma 0]

And yet as a stout defender of all things Schumi, I cringed with embaressment. Lewis is no slouch in the overtaking stakes, but he must have wondered if he could ever got past and lived to tell the tale. There has to be a mutual respect and trust. Look at the faith Mark put in Fernando at Eau Rouge this year. Does that make Fernando less of a racer? No, he just knows the safe and proper thing to do when it's that close. Michael was border line dirty, in my view.

And it's ok to have that view. I think it was dirty as well and lacked skill and I don't admire a driver that does what Mikey did. However, it still should not be against the rules.

We've regulated almost every part of a race, now. All but the boldest drivers are afraid to make a pass, finding it safer to hold position than risk a penalty. We've even mandated a 'passing' zone with the DRS areas. We've said they can only defend their position once. I'd wager most of our favorite and memorable moments of racing's past would never have happened if those daring drivers were obeying today's rules.

Indeed. That, and just how transparent Michael's feelings are to his fellow racers. Seemed like he wanted to put Lewis in his place. That place could have so easily have been in a box underneath the grass. Still, at least he could have kept Rubens company if that other dubious move at Hungary had not worked out so well too.

Again, look back at some of the most famous racing moments. Senna vs. Piquet. Villeneuve vs Arnoux. Mikey and Mika splitting Zonta at Spa. Those could also have resulted in someone being put 'under the grass'. How sanitized do you want your racing? Should we install slots in the track for the cars? Surely not.

Now I'm not saying Mikey vs Lewis was the same kind of memorable moment, for it's not memorable at all, really. But if you take away the driver's freedom to drive and battle, you may lose *real* moments of greatness.

You surprise me. The grass is the only thing that stops them driving over every goddam line of every goddam corner. Let the grass continue to police the lines and keep the peddalers honest.

And yet, at almost every race, multiple drivers go onto the grass anyway. As a deterrent, it kinda fails, don't you think? How many accidents have happened because a car hits the grass? More than I can count. If drivers go off onto the grass anyway, why not just remove it and make a *real* stab at safety?

[dribbler 6]

And it's ok to have that view. I think it was dirty as well and lacked skill and I don't admire a driver that does what Mikey did. However, it still should not be against the rules.

I agree with that.

We've regulated almost every part of a race, now. All but the boldest drivers are afraid to make a pass, finding it safer to hold position than risk a penalty. We've even mandated a 'passing' zone with the DRS areas. We've said they can only defend their position once. I'd wager most of our favorite and memorable moments of racing's past would never have happened if those daring drivers were obeying today's rules.

I think there's a strong argument to suggest that if you trust your fellow racer, you are more inclined to go for an overtake instead of holding station. I suppose my wider point is that I have no problem with drivers going wheel to wheel, as long as they drive within the acceptable boundaries of respect. In recent times, I'm thinking of Button versus Hamilton at Turkey 2010; they gave no quarter to each other and yet there was not even the merest suggestion that one would punt the other off. They gave each other room. When trying to get past Michael, drivers can never take for granted that he won't do something dubious. That's quite different from racing hard. Historically we have seen him race hard and be beaten fair and square as well as beating others fair and square. I just have no idea what switch is flicked mentally when he goes from that, to having the mindset of not wanting to be passed and doing anything to stop it. It's the inconsistency in his approach that is unnerving for his competitors and one of his biggest weaknesses. Largely though, I think we're agreeing with each other.

Again, look back at some of the most famous racing moments. Senna vs. Piquet. Villeneuve vs Arnoux. Mikey and Mika splitting Zonta at Spa. Those could also have resulted in someone being put 'under the grass'. How sanitized do you want your racing? Should we install slots in the track for the cars? Surely not.

Quite right. I don't want it sanitised. I want the drivers to respect each other, race hard and give in fairly when they are beaten.

Now I'm not saying Mikey vs Lewis was the same kind of memorable moment, for it's not memorable at all, really. But if you take away the driver's freedom to drive and battle, you may lose *real* moments of greatness.

And that's the irony of it all. As you quite rightly point out, the Schumi/Hammmy battle wasn't memorable in terms of skill, only in that Michael didn't play fair and that this was only the second time two of the sports finest had gone head to head. Button made them both look like club racers. I laughed hard at that. Fair play to the Buttonites.

And yet, at almost every race, multiple drivers go onto the grass anyway. As a deterrent, it kinda fails, don't you think? How many accidents have happened because a car hits the grass? More than I can count. If drivers go off onto the grass anyway, why not just remove it and make a *real* stab at safety?

It fascinates me that we disagree on this one. You are a traditional fan in every sense; not so concerned with safety and a lover of balls out racing. I'm a big softy and not so keen on the sight of blood. But I think slippy boundaries are essential for keeping them honest and reminding them of the consequences.