Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted October 1, 2011 Good analysis oh person formerly known as Rainmaster As has been said by others the quality of judgments has dropped somewhat. I remember going back a few years Hakkinen went through a spate of bumping into people and on the third of such incidents he was suspended as I recall for a race and no doubt told to calm down a bit. I happen to think Hakkinen was very good and he moved on and became less crashy.... The system needs to be revised as now every tiny incident causes an inquiry. Ultimately stewards need to assess: - Is there a case of cheating? (e.g. the old "skipping across the chicane and gaining an advantage" situation) or - Did someone deliberately take someone out or cause damage? or - Is the car or driver compromised in some way and likely to cause damage to others (carrying on driving at high speed with half a front wing) or - The final criteria is one of driver safety - is someone driving in a dangerous way? The last one is the most difficult to assess as it is where close and aggressive racing (which is exciting) overlaps with "you buffoon!". The issue I think is that they try to deliver "punishment" during the race, pressure on to make a quick decision and sometimes/often decisions can be inconsistent, whereas maybe they need time to review evidence, talk to drivers, etc. I'm not a fan particularly of post-race changes but I do wonder if, having more time to consider would make for different decision making? The stewards need to ignore racing errors (which are inevitable) and focus on dangerous driving. The whole notion of "causing an avoidable accident" is a nonsense as by definition, almost all accidents are avoidable (you just drive further apart! which makes for dull racing). So clamp down on persistent offenders who maybe need more of a slap on the wrist than a drive through. And if all else fails, stick both drivers in a giant vat of goo and let them fight it out until one wins (OK, Steph, they can be naked, I'll just leave the room at that point (unless Danica joins F1) ) I agree. Even with the goo, provided it's flamingo-pink goo. Made from flamingos. Unfortunately, the drivers bear some responsibility in all this. After all, weren't the GPDA the entity that asked the FIA, via the stewards, to investigate every little incident? I may be wrong, but I never am. Problem is, not all the drivers are part of the GPDA and not all members agree. Also, there is possibly a wide gulf between what the drivers and stewards would consider 'every little incident'. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted October 1, 2011 was gonna tease someone but decided better. Deleted my OP. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Caesar 0 Report post Posted October 1, 2011 Have you ever heard of the concept of "learning from mistakes and improving"? Even Bobby Fischer lost a chess match once upon a time. So, I'd be wary of basing my current opinion on past performances (although Vettel's previous to this year is actually very good, a championship, a win in a non championship car, debut points, impressing in Friday practice sessions etc), yes he made a few errors last year in close racing, but none of which he repeated on the occasions when he needed to overtake this year. And he is a young god. As for the "picture that driver is the only one that makes the results" the argument works both ways, I think . So it is wrong to say "he is the best because he wins" but it would be equally foolish to think "he is not that special because he has the best car/team". As usual it is not as black and white as either of those, and it is possible to have a great driver in a great car. What is easy to see and impossible to deny with Vettel is that he has delivered what the car is capable of results wise this year, and has maximised every single opportunity without making any mistakes I can think of, which is what good champions do. He also showed a few examples of spare capacity, presence of mind and being generally more 'switched on' than many others: in the Singapore pitlane when a Team Lotus car came in behind him, he watched the Team Lotus pit lights in anticipation of it being released, obviously wary of a collision (and indeed it was released unsafely); in the Valencia race (iirc) he enquired on the radio about Webber's laptimes on prime tyres (the team had not informed him of Webber's tyres, he had been watching on TV screens); he was the only driver to visit Pirelli before the season started, which is not necessarily something which made a material difference to his driving, but is nonetheless a smart thing to do; as is keeping such a close relationship with Ecclestone, a nice ally to have I'm sure. Whether you look at driving or off track activities, this year Vettel is playing the F1 game smarter than the others. All of this from someone who thinks Alonso, and a Ham using his head, are probably better than SV. yes, i have heard of the concept of "learning from mistakes and improving". but this year i only see that red bull team learned from last year championship that seb's racecraft isn't best in the world. they decided to move "use of his racecraft" out of the equation. they have decided they need to push for every pole position or the start of the race from first row and try to escape from others early during the race. and they manage to do it very well most of the races,cause that car is a beast. so you have youngest double WDC who is made by avoiding racing in F1,he is only driving. he is not a new senna, no matter how hard they tried to make him . and please don't say things like peter windsor these days that it is hard to win from pole position even in a best car and how in a monza vettel won although he had lowest high speed on the straight. in monza vettel was 3/4 sec faster than anyone else in the first 7 laps of the race. i will repeat it it again :he is youngest double WDC who is made by avoiding racing in F1. he is not the best F1 driver these days. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monza gorilla 1 Report post Posted October 1, 2011 Problem is, not all the drivers are part of the GPDA and not all members agree. Also, there is possibly a wide gulf between what the drivers and stewards would consider 'every little incident'. True, but I still think it's an apt illustration of "be careful what you wish for". EDIT: typo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Quiet One 15 Report post Posted October 1, 2011 ...then again, we seem to be too focused on "every little incident" as well. Looking back this season, I don't see many penalties handed.Even fewer when compared with other seasons (although it might be just a feeling, haven't counted them...somebody would like to do the maths?). And even fewer seemed really championship-ruining ill-handled penalties. The inconsistency is there. I think most people (again, I think) would agree that Nico got away pretty easy this race. His chicane cutting alone would deserved a penalty. I completely agree with that big pile of organic waste we came to know as #46 (nothing personal, you know!) on almost every account. I've been reasessing my image of Vettel when compared with Webber and, although reluctantly, the kid has improved in almost every area. Button being the other guy that ruined my perfect world in which every guy already had their images engraved in stone. Other than that, Alonso seems more or less the same as usual, perhaps having improved a little in his handling of public relations (i.e. sucking up to the tifosi ) he si still top of the field, but the place is slowly getting crowded with other aspirants, which is great. Webber is Webber, and he doesn't seem capable of much more, if we eliminate Vettel from the equation, the RBR would not have looked as formidable...so either RBR had decided to give Webbo a repainted Merc or the guy is really miles behind the undearable kid with the stiff finger. Lewis has gone backwards for reasons unknown, and despite all my digs and such I would very much like him back on track and improving, because having him crashing and overtaking cars and crashing again looks more like a fly against a window than Senna around Monaco. My guess is that management failed him and Button's improvement has subrepticiously undermined his confidence. Both things can be easily reverted if he realizes that, in the end, curbing his enthusiasm for banzai driving and using more of the considerable brain he has but has no confidence in, would yield better results than enforcing his gung ho tactics, despite what Whitmarsh says Button has broke his theoretical service ceiling and attaining new heights doing what we were all expecting Lewis to do. Personally, I still consider that Lewis can beat him any day with little improvement, but kudos for the attitude from Button. I might even start to like his driving style Schumi is lost. Another guy that for reasons unknown has moveed everywhere but forwards. We keep trying to find sparks of the old legend, but sometimes I wonder if we are mistaking pimples for dimples. True, the Merc is not a car that flatters the drivers, but still...At least I hope he is having a hell of a time while it lasts. Nico, should have gotten a formidable ego boost by dominating Schuey, yet his racecraft seems always more or less at the ssame level. Not sure if there's more than a souped up version of Heidfeld inside this guy. Why am I writing all this unrelated crap? Oh, well...sorry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Caesar 0 Report post Posted October 1, 2011 ...then again, we seem to be too focused on "every little incident" as well. Looking back this season, I don't see many penalties handed.Even fewer when compared with other seasons (although it might be just a feeling, haven't counted them...somebody would like to do the maths?). And even fewer seemed really championship-ruining ill-handled penalties. The inconsistency is there. I think most people (again, I think) would agree that Nico got away pretty easy this race. His chicane cutting alone would deserved a penalty. I completely agree with that big pile of organic waste we came to know as #46 (nothing personal, you know!) on almost every account. I've been reasessing my image of Vettel when compared with Webber and, although reluctantly, the kid has improved in almost every area. Button being the other guy that ruined my perfect world in which every guy already had their images engraved in stone. Other than that, Alonso seems more or less the same as usual, perhaps having improved a little in his handling of public relations (i.e. sucking up to the tifosi ) he si still top of the field, but the place is slowly getting crowded with other aspirants, which is great. Webber is Webber, and he doesn't seem capable of much more, if we eliminate Vettel from the equation, the RBR would not have looked as formidable...so either RBR had decided to give Webbo a repainted Merc or the guy is really miles behind the undearable kid with the stiff finger. Lewis has gone backwards for reasons unknown, and despite all my digs and such I would very much like him back on track and improving, because having him crashing and overtaking cars and crashing again looks more like a fly against a window than Senna around Monaco. My guess is that management failed him and Button's improvement has subrepticiously undermined his confidence. Both things can be easily reverted if he realizes that, in the end, curbing his enthusiasm for banzai driving and using more of the considerable brain he has but has no confidence in, would yield better results than enforcing his gung ho tactics, despite what Whitmarsh says Button has broke his theoretical service ceiling and attaining new heights doing what we were all expecting Lewis to do. Personally, I still consider that Lewis can beat him any day with little improvement, but kudos for the attitude from Button. I might even start to like his driving style Schumi is lost. Another guy that for reasons unknown has moveed everywhere but forwards. We keep trying to find sparks of the old legend, but sometimes I wonder if we are mistaking pimples for dimples. True, the Merc is not a car that flatters the drivers, but still...At least I hope he is having a hell of a time while it lasts. Nico, should have gotten a formidable ego boost by dominating Schuey, yet his racecraft seems always more or less at the ssame level. Not sure if there's more than a souped up version of Heidfeld inside this guy. Why am I writing all this unrelated crap? Oh, well...sorry i am glad that you mentioned this, cause if i have mentioned it some people would say that it is just another conspiracy theory. we all know how good that car is, it is very dominant , on every track. but if we remove vettel out of the picture we would have webber fighting with alonso for 3rd place every single race. maybe vettel and webber drive the same car but they don't get same attention. those 3-4 tenths that vettel was faster last year were realistic, but this year it looks fishy. i don't buy that theory about pirelli's and webber ,and webbers starts are the point where he loses a chance to fight for victory, and they are controlled by the software on pits. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HandyNZL 1 Report post Posted October 1, 2011 Errr....no....computer controlled starts went out the window years ago Caesar. I don't know what everyone is so miffed about to be honest. Vettel is the LAST piece in the puzzle of a racing car, and there are many many many people before him that have made the car that it is. That said, he still must make it to the finish, and before that, must qualify it well. And he is doing that more consistently than ANY other driver this year. Why he has to be measured against Senna, A, is beyond me. The only people he needs measuring against are those he races against. No one is the new anyone, they can only ever be the new themselves. All this comparison stuff is bulls##t. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Quiet One 15 Report post Posted October 1, 2011 Errr....no....computer controlled starts went out the window years ago Caesar. I don't know what everyone is so miffed about to be honest. Vettel is the LAST piece in the puzzle of a racing car, and there are many many many people before him that have made the car that it is. That said, he still must make it to the finish, and before that, must qualify it well. And he is doing that more consistently than ANY other driver this year. Why he has to be measured against Senna, A, is beyond me. The only people he needs measuring against are those he races against. No one is the new anyone, they can only ever be the new themselves. All this comparison stuff is bulls##t. Yup. You are like the new Senna of this forum! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2011 True, but I still think it's an apt illustration of "be careful what you wish for". EDIT: typo. I was thinking that too. EDIT: Added a smiley because everybody loves a smiley Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4 Report post Posted October 2, 2011 Schumi is lost. Another guy that for reasons unknown has moveed everywhere but forwards. We keep trying to find sparks of the old legend, but sometimes I wonder if we are mistaking pimples for dimples. True, the Merc is not a car that flatters the drivers, but still...At least I hope he is having a hell of a time while it lasts. Well, the Merc's DNA is previously Brawn, previously Honda - ex F1 Champ running around in mid-field in an uninspiring, underpowered car...., lost their way..... wait haven't we seen this before??? Next thing we know, Schui will release an album Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Quiet One 15 Report post Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='Grabthaw the Hammerslayer' timestamp='1317537278' post='337883'] Next thing we know, Schui will release an album [/quote] Well...actually he tried to make a music video with the help of Brawn, Willis and Costa but it came out as...how could I put it? A little bit outdated... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPnGPIMUnus ...and a bit gay... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted October 2, 2011 Well...actually he tried to make a music video with the help of Brawn, Willis and Costa but it came out as...how could I put it? A little bit outdated... ...and a bit gay... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4 Report post Posted October 2, 2011 ...and a bit gay... Hamilton is *not* in that!??? Actually its plain to see from the hair that it was Schui's little brother, anyway Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HandyNZL 1 Report post Posted October 3, 2011 That's proof LSD was in the water supply in the seventies.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
