tifosi too!

Massa's Penalty

42 posts in this topic

After reading the explanation of the penalty Massa was given, by Johnny Herbert, who was the driver-steward, I remain totally unconvinced and I believe it sets bad precedents for F1.

Link is here, text below.

Felipe Massa fully deserved his drive-through penalty at the Indian Grand Prix, according to the driver steward that weekend, Johnny Herbert.

The former Formula 1 driver is adamant that the Brazilian knew where Lewis Hamilton was, and failed to leave necessary room to avoid an accident, despite Massa claiming innocence.

The Ferrari driver said immediately after the race, that he didn't understand why he had been punished, firmly placing the blame of long-term rival, Hamilton.

"I don't understand why I have the penalty," confessed Massa. "I braked later than him, I was in front and on the grippier part of the circuit and I didn’t see him on the left. So he was behind and he touched my rear wheel."

Writing in his column for The National though, Herbert took the time to explain his reasoning behind the penalty.

"The decision to penalise Felipe Massa for his contact with Lewis Hamilton came down to one simple fact - it could have been avoided," wrote the 47-year-old.

"I know Massa was upset by our decision, but I believe we made the right call. After looking at it from different camera angles and studying all the data available to us, it was clear that Massa knew where Hamilton was before he chose to turn across him.

"There was nothing Hamilton could have done to avoid it. He did try to get out of the move, but it was too late and the contact was made."

This is not an acceptable reason to give a penalty, in my opinion at least and I 'm pretty sure many people may think otherwise.

In any case, does that mean...

  1. That now the car in front must give up position if the driver thinks that the driver chasing him may crash into him while trying to overtake?
  2. The driver of the car in front must assume the other driver is indeed trying to crash into him in fast corners with little braking rather than pressuring him, especially now with the DRS and KERS where the faster car can literally breeze by in the straight and therefore act based on assumption?
  3. What if Hamilton decided to brake before they crashed, as he should have? Surely a driver of Hamilton's caliber would have been able to execute such manouvre. So why was Massa acting un-sportingly since he couldn't possibly know if Hamilton was just pushing him hard? F1 cars have phenomenal braking power so Massa should have had to be able to calculate in milliseconds that Hamilton would indeed go for the overtake instead of playing mind games.Was that something he had to be penalized or even blamed for?
  4. If a driver keeps the racing line and is more than half the car ahead while turning in, does he have to get off line and let the car he is fighting for a position with to pass? This will be an issue in the future.
  5. That Massa had intention to cause an accident and had to be penalized? Cars in F1 run very closely many times during a race and each driver is responsible for his actions. The incident happened at a fast corner that cars take in 4th gear, as I read somewhere. Was the overtaking manouvre that well executed that the accident happened because of Massa's actions? Where was he supposed to go, or do?
  6. If a driver now shoots down the inside every car he comes across, the car in front must let him pass in order not to cause an accident?

I'm sure there are more 'dark spots' on this ruling but I trust you guys to dig them out.

I 'm aware we don't have the evidence the stewards had but I just can't understand how the driver in front can be blamed.

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Is it really that much different to the Lewis and Webber incident Singapore 2010?

I guess you would also have to question why Massa lied at first when he said he didn't see Lewis, only to change his story later and admit he did see Lewis before they came together :whistling:

In any case, the penalty was harsh, it was just a racing incident. However, this is no different to a lot of the previous penalties over the years, which were just as harsh or unjust.

Edited by pabloh20

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For sure, I tell you what, it was the team's fault, for sure, to have this contact with Lewis, for sure, I tell you what, the team is behind Fernando, for sure, and I will be fired from leave Ferrari after 2012 if the team does not stop doing this to me, for sure.

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They should of penalized them both for an avoidable clash. (they clash like every race)

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Silly penalty, but that's the problem when silly precedents have been set throughout the season.

I can think of at least 5 incidents this year when an unnecessary penalty was handed out. This was another.

The adjudicators need to reassess their criteria.

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Based on Hamilton's year and his various incidents, personally I think the blame was his. Whether Massa saw him or not is irrelavant, he was ahead and thus in my view had the right of way. If you put your car up the inside of another driver and a crash happens, you too have also caused an avoidable accident. So the penalty should have been no drive through, or a drive through for both.

I see more people talking about Hamilton's lack of judgment and respect towards other drivers this year than Massa. Back in 2006 Yuji Ide had his superlicence suspended after a few incidents. The guy was a rookie, and yet was tossed out after only 4 races. Now how many incidents and crashes has Hamilton been involved in this year? Certainly alot more than 4. And he's no rookie. He's a WDC for goodness sake, yet is putting in performances that would get most other drivers kicked out of the team.

Hamilton needs a good kick in the pants at the moment. I don't care if he's had a recent relationship breakup, a professional gets on with it and gives their best at all times.

After not liking Hamilton's arrogant attitude when he first came into F1, I softened to him. But lately seeing how he treats other drivers, his constant crashing into people, his numerous trips to the stewards, I feel he either needs a time out, or to be dropped by McLaren. I doubt all drivers trust his instincts at the moment, and that makes him unpredictable and dangerous.

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In my opinion, Lewis was not alongside Massa enough for it to be Lewis's corner. Massa knew Lewis was there but had every right to take his natural racing line. This leaves Lewis a clear and simple choice; foot in or back out. In this respect, I think the penalty was harsh and unfair. I think it would have spoken greater volumes had no penalty been imposed to either. They may have both been left then with the feeling that they both lost out - which they did.

The problem was that Lewis was in a half hearted middle ground; not alongside enough for Massa to have to move, but alongside enough for a clash to be inevitable because he had no time to back out.

The bigger picture for me is that we had a Hamilton in 2007 who woke everyone up. He caught many unaware. Unfortunately for him, they are all now fully aware and not so keen to give up positions to him. This means Lewis is trying to overtake in places that are not so obvious. This equates to some dubious decisions on his part whilst he battles his emotional demons, a car that's not quite there and a team mate who is doing better.

Time for a sabbatical, me thinks.

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In my opinion, Lewis was not alongside Massa enough for it to be Lewis's corner. Massa knew Lewis was there but had every right to take his natural racing line. This leaves Lewis a clear and simple choice; foot in or back out. In this respect, I think the penalty was harsh and unfair. I think it would have spoken greater volumes had no penalty been imposed to either. They may have both been left then with the feeling that they both lost out - which they did.The problem was that Lewis was in a half hearted middle ground; not alongside enough for Massa to have to move, but alongside enough for a clash to be inevitable because he had no time to back out.

The bigger picture for me is that we had a Hamilton in 2007 who woke everyone up. He caught many unaware. Unfortunately for him, they are all now fully aware and not so keen to give up positions to him. This means Lewis is trying to overtake in places that are not so obvious. This equates to some dubious decisions on his part whilst he battles his emotional demons, a car that's not quite there and a team mate who is doing better.

Time for a sabbatical, me thinks.

I agree that applying no penalty would have probably been the correct decision. However, as several posts in this thread show, it would seem that applying no penalty would have implied that Lewis was guilty and 'got away with it'.

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I agree that applying no penalty would have probably been the correct decision. However, as several posts in this thread show, it would seem that applying no penalty would have implied that Lewis was guilty and 'got away with it'.

Not necessarily. It might have implied that in circumstances such as these when it's almost six of one and half a dozen of the other, the only losers are the kids who can't swap places without breaking bits and losing places.

A case of 'go away and have a word with yourselves'.

A one-to-one chat away from the madding crowds is often the best way to resolve issues like these. Not play it out in front of everyone with dubious agendas.

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  1. That now the car in front must give up position if the driver thinks that the driver chasing him may crash into him while trying to overtake? No. All drivers, from early in their careers learn of a rule called "overlap"...if overlap is established going into the braking zone, then one is obliged to hold their line / leave racing room. Lewis had overlap (front wheels up to c#ckpit) as they went into the braking zone, and thus Massa should have kept his line. He did not. Whilst in the first instance it is the overtaking cars duty to pass safely, it is also the being-passed cars duty to acknowledge an overlap and cede.
  2. The driver of the car in front must assume the other driver is indeed trying to crash into him in fast corners with little braking rather than pressuring him, especially now with the DRS and KERS where the faster car can literally breeze by in the straight and therefore act based on assumption? That's just dumb. No one goes out to crash into anyone. I've wasted too many letters on responding to this question, so will leave it at that.
  3. What if Hamilton decided to brake before they crashed, as he should have? Surely a driver of Hamilton's caliber would have been able to execute such manouvre. So why was Massa acting un-sportingly since he couldn't possibly know if Hamilton was just pushing him hard? F1 cars have phenomenal braking power so Massa should have had to be able to calculate in milliseconds that Hamilton would indeed go for the overtake instead of playing mind games.Was that something he had to be penalized or even blamed for? Hamilton DID brake. He was fully alongside as they entered the braking zone. As he was on the dirtier part of the circuit, he in actuality braked earlier than Massa, and dropped from fully alongside, to the rear three quarters. Herbert is absolutely correct in stating Massa would have known he was there. Why would Massa close the door? A simple gamble in the heat of the moment...remember that this is the same Massa that pulled the same door closing maneuver on Jensen at Australia this year (cast your mind back folks), when Button had the faster car, and as they approached the kink at the rowing club, he too went for the inside line...and Massa shut the door, pushing Jensen into the escape road, with Button exclaiming over the radio that "Massa pushed me off"...Button was latter penalised for cutting the corner...though the only reason he did was because Massa put him there. Fast forward to India, and Massa pulled the same trick, and this time with something on his side...Hamilton not being the flavour of the month with the stewards, and thus more likely to cop a penalty if they hit. I guess he never figured that Herbert actually has eyes (and so too the other stewards).
  4. If a driver keeps the racing line and is more than half the car ahead while turning in, does he have to get off line and let the car he is fighting for a position with to pass? This will be an issue in the future. Yes...that is an overlap by the car behind. If they don't, you cause an avoidable accident. Now, if the passing car is only wing to gearbox, then no overlap has been created, and if he then hits the car in front it is his fault, and he is the one causing an avoidable accident...just like Hamilton on Massa in Singapore.
  5. That Massa had intention to cause an accident and had to be penalized? Cars in F1 run very closely many times during a race and each driver is responsible for his actions. The incident happened at a fast corner that cars take in 4th gear, as I read somewhere. Was the overtaking manouvre that well executed that the accident happened because of Massa's actions? Where was he supposed to go, or do? This was a normal passing move by Hamilton, one he has displayed and made more often than any other driver this year, except perhaps that Japanese Cowboy (yeeeeha!!) - that is to say, passed someone OUTSIDE of a DRS zone. Vettel has done one (on Alonso), Webber has done one too (on Alonso), and Jensen did one on Schumi (when funnily enough Hamilton didn't...but that's another story). Where was Massa supposed to go? The answer to that is very, very, very simple...you leave racing room....the corner was a left followed by a quick right...there was more chance of Massa maintaining his position than there was him being passed had he given racing room. Perhaps he was weary of the second kerb and wrecking his suspension, but then...wait....he did that all on his lonesome a few laps latter anyway. In short, Massa was clumsy, and pulled a move that put himself in the firing line, when he so easily could have avoided it by leaving a car width for Hamilton to not hit him....because had he done that, I believe he would not have been passed by Hamilton (due to him being on the inside at the very next corner, and because Lewis had to brake earlier going into the left hand portion of the corner due to being on the dirtier line).
  6. If a driver now shoots down the inside every car he comes across, the car in front must let him pass in order not to cause an accident? No. Because unless you have not established an overlap, then you have not claimed the corner. Like I said, no one goes out just to wreck their cars...this is not sprint cars on a quarter mile dirt track.

I'm sure there are more 'dark spots' on this ruling but I trust you guys to dig them out.

I 'm aware we don't have the evidence the stewards had but I just can't understand how the driver in front can be blamed. It is called overlap.

Edited by HandyNZL

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  1. That now the car in front must give up position if the driver thinks that the driver chasing him may crash into him while trying to overtake? No. All drivers, from early in their careers learn of a rule called "overlap"...if overlap is established going into the braking zone, then one is obliged to hold their line / leave racing room. Lewis had overlap (front wheels up to c#ckpit) as they went into the braking zone, and thus Massa should have kept his line. He did not. Whilst in the first instance it is the overtaking cars duty to pass safely, it is also the being-passed cars duty to acknowledge an overlap and cede.
  2. The driver of the car in front must assume the other driver is indeed trying to crash into him in fast corners with little braking rather than pressuring him, especially now with the DRS and KERS where the faster car can literally breeze by in the straight and therefore act based on assumption? That's just dumb. No one goes out to crash into anyone. I've wasted too many letters on responding to this question, so will leave it at that.
  3. What if Hamilton decided to brake before they crashed, as he should have? Surely a driver of Hamilton's caliber would have been able to execute such manouvre. So why was Massa acting un-sportingly since he couldn't possibly know if Hamilton was just pushing him hard? F1 cars have phenomenal braking power so Massa should have had to be able to calculate in milliseconds that Hamilton would indeed go for the overtake instead of playing mind games.Was that something he had to be penalized or even blamed for? Hamilton DID brake. He was fully alongside as they entered the braking zone. As he was on the dirtier part of the circuit, he in actuality braked earlier than Massa, and dropped from fully alongside, to the rear three quarters. Herbert is absolutely correct in stating Massa would have known he was there. Why would Massa close the door? A simple gamble in the heat of the moment...remember that this is the same Massa that pulled the same door closing maneuver on Jensen at Australia this year (cast your mind back folks), when Button had the faster car, and as they approached the kink at the rowing club, he too went for the inside line...and Massa shut the door, pushing Jensen into the escape road, with Button exclaiming over the radio that "Massa pushed me off"...Button was latter penalised for cutting the corner...though the only reason he did was because Massa put him there. Fast forward to India, and Massa pulled the same trick, and this time with something on his side...Hamilton not being the flavour of the month with the stewards, and thus more likely to cop a penalty if they hit. I guess he never figured that Herbert actually has eyes (and so too the other stewards).
  4. If a driver keeps the racing line and is more than half the car ahead while turning in, does he have to get off line and let the car he is fighting for a position with to pass? This will be an issue in the future. Yes...that is an overlap by the car behind. If they don't, you cause an avoidable accident. Now, if the passing car is only wing to gearbox, then no overlap has been created, and if he then hits the car in front it is his fault, and he is the one causing an avoidable accident...just like Hamilton on Massa in Singapore.
  5. That Massa had intention to cause an accident and had to be penalized? Cars in F1 run very closely many times during a race and each driver is responsible for his actions. The incident happened at a fast corner that cars take in 4th gear, as I read somewhere. Was the overtaking manouvre that well executed that the accident happened because of Massa's actions? Where was he supposed to go, or do? This was a normal passing move by Hamilton, one he has displayed and made more often than any other driver this year, except perhaps that Japanese Cowboy (yeeeeha!!) - that is to say, passed someone OUTSIDE of a DRS zone. Vettel has done one (on Alonso), Webber has done one too (on Alonso), and Jensen did one on Schumi (when funnily enough Hamilton didn't...but that's another story). Where was Massa supposed to go? The answer to that is very, very, very simple...you leave racing room....the corner was a left followed by a quick right...there was more chance of Massa maintaining his position than there was him being passed had he given racing room. Perhaps he was weary of the second kerb and wrecking his suspension, but then...wait....he did that all on his lonesome a few laps latter anyway. In short, Massa was clumsy, and pulled a move that put himself in the firing line, when he so easily could have avoided it by leaving a car width for Hamilton to not hit him....because had he done that, I believe he would not have been passed by Hamilton (due to him being on the inside at the very next corner, and because Lewis had to brake earlier going into the left hand portion of the corner due to being on the dirtier line).
  6. If a driver now shoots down the inside every car he comes across, the car in front must let him pass in order not to cause an accident? No. Because unless you have not established an overlap, then you have not claimed the corner. Like I said, no one goes out just to wreck their cars...this is not sprint cars on a quarter mile dirt track.

I'm sure there are more 'dark spots' on this ruling but I trust you guys to dig them out.

I 'm aware we don't have the evidence the stewards had but I just can't understand how the driver in front can be blamed. It is called overlap.

To justify your points... and I'm sorry if I'm re-affirming or repeating points but it is really quite SIMPLE for those who understand English...

Here is Herbert’s view AGAIN:

We’ve been discussing the incident between Lewis Hamilton and Felipe Massa for the last few days with differing opinions on the collision. The FIA’s veteran driver program places former F1 drivers in the role of Steward for the race and the inaugural Indian Grand Prix had Johnny Herbert on duty at the Buddh Circuit last Sunday. The stewards deemed Felipe Massa at fault in the incident and according to Herbert, there was justifiable reasons for doing so as he told The National: “The decision to penalize Felipe Massa for his contact with Lewis Hamilton came down to one simple fact – it could have been avoided”. Some of the discussion has been on the avoidable nature of the incident and the unyielding nature both drivers seem to have with each other given their history of six collisions so far this season. Herbert said the situation was avoidable and that Massa could have gone wide: “You could see that Massa looked in his side mirror, so he knew Hamilton was on his left as they approached the left-hand turn. It appeared he was giving up the corner as he moved wide to the right, effectively opening the door for Hamilton to go down the inside on the left. Only, Massa swept across in front of him, leading to contact. There was nothing Hamilton could have done to avoid it. He did try to get out of the move, but it was too late and the contact was made. Massa knew where Hamilton was, he opened the door for him by moving wide, and after doing that he still swept across and did not give Hamilton room. That’s why the decision was made to punish him with a drive-through penalty.”

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  1. That now the car in front must give up position if the driver thinks that the driver chasing him may crash into him while trying to overtake? No. All drivers, from early in their careers learn of a rule called "overlap"...if overlap is established going into the braking zone, then one is obliged to hold their line / leave racing room. Lewis had overlap (front wheels up to c#ckpit) as they went into the braking zone, and thus Massa should have kept his line. He did not. Whilst in the first instance it is the overtaking cars duty to pass safely, it is also the being-passed cars duty to acknowledge an overlap and cede. - Alright then, could you provide us with some credible info on this rule and why it's applied here? As far as I 'm concerned the car that is technically behind and has not passed in any way the car in front, does not have the right to pass. Please explain it in detail because the internet doesn't seem to agree with you. All I could find was about sailing boat races. Have you watched the video? From what I saw, Hamilton's car was never even up to c#ckpit but his front wheel was up to Massa's rear wheel. Try to align them in the video and don't be fooled by the angle.
  2. The driver of the car in front must assume the other driver is indeed trying to crash into him in fast corners with little braking rather than pressuring him, especially now with the DRS and KERS where the faster car can literally breeze by in the straight and therefore act based on assumption? That's just dumb. No one goes out to crash into anyone. I've wasted too many letters on responding to this question, so will leave it at that. -You didn't get my point, but maybe the fact I'm not a native English speaker may have something to do with it. By saying "trying to crash into him", I was referring to the end result, as it happened eventually. I said that because Massa was supposedly penalized for causing the collision and supposedly had the intention to cause it.How could he have known Hamilton's intentions??
  3. What if Hamilton decided to brake before they crashed, as he should have? Surely a driver of Hamilton's caliber would have been able to execute such manouvre. So why was Massa acting un-sportingly since he couldn't possibly know if Hamilton was just pushing him hard? F1 cars have phenomenal braking power so Massa should have had to be able to calculate in milliseconds that Hamilton would indeed go for the overtake instead of playing mind games.Was that something he had to be penalized or even blamed for? Hamilton DID brake. He was fully alongside as they entered the braking zone. As he was on the dirtier part of the circuit, he in actuality braked earlier than Massa, and dropped from fully alongside, to the rear three quarters. Herbert is absolutely correct in stating Massa would have known he was there. Why would Massa close the door? A simple gamble in the heat of the moment...remember that this is the same Massa that pulled the same door closing maneuver on Jensen at Australia this year (cast your mind back folks), when Button had the faster car, and as they approached the kink at the rowing club, he too went for the inside line...and Massa shut the door, pushing Jensen into the escape road, with Button exclaiming over the radio that "Massa pushed me off"...Button was latter penalised for cutting the corner...though the only reason he did was because Massa put him there. Fast forward to India, and Massa pulled the same trick, and this time with something on his side...Hamilton not being the flavour of the month with the stewards, and thus more likely to cop a penalty if they hit. I guess he never figured that Herbert actually has eyes (and so too the other stewards). -By saying "brake", I meant of course to brake enough so they wouldn't crash. I believe this is obvious so maybe you need to read it again in a new perspective.
  4. If a driver keeps the racing line and is more than half the car ahead while turning in, does he have to get off line and let the car he is fighting for a position with to pass? This will be an issue in the future. Yes...that is an overlap by the car behind. If they don't, you cause an avoidable accident. Now, if the passing car is only wing to gearbox, then no overlap has been created, and if he then hits the car in front it is his fault, and he is the one causing an avoidable accident...just like Hamilton on Massa in Singapore. -Still I 'd like to know precisely how "ovelap" works before commenting. I wish i had the time to look it up better now but only in a few hours I 'll be able to. Strangely I never heard of such a rule before, favoring a car that hasn't even slightly passed the car ahead. Hamilton was more that half of Massa's car behind.Check it out.
  5. That Massa had intention to cause an accident and had to be penalized? Cars in F1 run very closely many times during a race and each driver is responsible for his actions. The incident happened at a fast corner that cars take in 4th gear, as I read somewhere. Was the overtaking manouvre that well executed that the accident happened because of Massa's actions? Where was he supposed to go, or do? This was a normal passing move by Hamilton, one he has displayed and made more often than any other driver this year, except perhaps that Japanese Cowboy (yeeeeha!!) - that is to say, passed someone OUTSIDE of a DRS zone. Vettel has done one (on Alonso), Webber has done one too (on Alonso), and Jensen did one on Schumi (when funnily enough Hamilton didn't...but that's another story). Where was Massa supposed to go? The answer to that is very, very, very simple...you leave racing room....the corner was a left followed by a quick right...there was more chance of Massa maintaining his position than there was him being passed had he given racing room. Perhaps he was weary of the second kerb and wrecking his suspension, but then...wait....he did that all on his lonesome a few laps latter anyway. In short, Massa was clumsy, and pulled a move that put himself in the firing line, when he so easily could have avoided it by leaving a car width for Hamilton to not hit him....because had he done that, I believe he would not have been passed by Hamilton (due to him being on the inside at the very next corner, and because Lewis had to brake earlier going into the left hand portion of the corner due to being on the dirtier line). -Just read DC's comments and tell me again, regarding this particular incident of course. Leave racing room while battling for position and trying to your best for the team? Is that a proper way to race other that historic cars?
  6. If a driver now shoots down the inside every car he comes across, the car in front must let him pass in order not to cause an accident? No. Because unless you have not established an overlap, then you have not claimed the corner. Like I said, no one goes out just to wreck their cars...this is not sprint cars on a quarter mile dirt track. -As I said before, just inform us properly and we 'll see if you are right.

I'm sure there are more 'dark spots' on this ruling but I trust you guys to dig them out.

I 'm aware we don't have the evidence the stewards had but I just can't understand how the driver in front can be blamed. It is called overlap. -See above.

Edited by tifosi too!

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I agree with this guy.

He doesn't seem to know anything about 'overlaps' though so take what he writes with a grain of salt!

Analysis: Coulthard backs Massa

David Coulthard has come out firmly on the side of Felipe Massa over the Indian GP penalty that left anyone with eyes in their head incredulous.

Thirteen-time GP winner Coulthard, now a TV pundit for BBC television, said immediately after the incident that he feared a penalty for Hamilton.

"For me it was a racing incident," Coulthard said in his UK Daily Telegraph newspaper column. "At worst I felt Lewis was more to blame. I simply can't understand how Felipe could have been deemed the guilty party.

"As drivers we are always taught that the car behind is responsible so to my mind the stewards misinterpreted what happened.

"If Lewis had got that far up alongside Felipe into a tight hairpin, where the braking zone is maybe 100 metres and lasts for a few seconds, then I think Massa would have been right to give way. But heading into a fourth gear left-hander at maybe 150-160km/h? Where the braking zone lasts for one second? I don't think Massa can be held responsible."

Coulthard added: "It was almost as if they felt that with Lewis receiving so many decisions against him this year, they were trying to redress the balance."

Johnny Herbert, the driver steward on the FIA panel in India, has said since the race: "The decision to penalise Massa for his contact with Hamilton came down to one simple fact - it could have been avoided. I know Massa was upset by our decision, but I believe we made the right call.

"After looking at it from different camera angles and studying all the data, it was clear that Massa knew where Hamilton was before he chose to turn across him. There was nothing Hamilton could have done to avoid it. He did try to get out of the move but it was too late."

There aren't so much holes in Herbert's justification, as craters. Of course it could have been avoided, but why does that make it Massa's fault? Hamilton should have backed out of it much sooner. He shouldn't have still been there when it became clear he wasn't going to make the move stick.

The key point is Coulthard's comment about the driver behind being responsible. This would appear to be news to a depressingly large number of people posting rubbish on sundry websites and bulletin boards, but is obvious to anyone who has competed in anything beyond the school sack race.

The fact is that Hamilton almost got alongside Massa early in the run to Turn 5 by deploying KERS. That then ran out and he no longer had the additional momentum that would have brought him fully alongside, as would have occurred had, for example, he had a much better exit from Turn 4.

Compounding that, Hamilton was on the dirty side of the track, as evidenced by the dust he was kicking up, while Massa went right to take the normal racing line. Those combined factors afforded the Ferrari much more grip and therefore the opportunity to brake later and reclaim the initial ground that Hamilton had made before they reached the turn-in point.

It is the position of the cars at the turn-in point that matters and as can be clearly seen from video footage of the incident, Hamilton's right front makes contact with Massa's left rear. End of story.

Forget the personalities involved or any of that, any racing driver who cedes a corner from the position Massa was in, needs to quickly look for an alternative career.

The reasoning behind such etiquette is simple enough. On the run up a straight to a corner you can jockey for position, check your mirrors, attack, defend, do whetever, but when you reach the turn-in point and commit, you are looking ahead of you.

A full field of peripheral vision is 180 degrees. Not many have it. For most people it's somewhere between 140 degrees and 180 degrees. And hence, if you are looking ahead and someone is not right alongside you, you are not going to see them. Of course you might know they are there but you are not obliged to accommodate them.

Hence the existence of the universally accepted rule that the guy behind is responsible. If the guy is all but alongside you, you may in some cases cede, for instance if he's on a grippier bit of road or a better line. But cede position when the guy's front is level with your rear and you are on the racing line? Not a chance.

Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali was humorously ironic when it was pointed out that Hamilton and Massa seemed to be attracted like magnets.

"Yes," he laughed, "but which one is the positive and which one the negative!"

He added: "I have to respect the decision of the referee even if I was very surprised. Felipe was ahead at the entrance to the corner and had the line..."

The situation between the two drivers is starting to go a bit beyond a joke. Thankfully, McLaren's Martin Whitmarsh says it's not the time to stage a hand-shake outside the garage. That would be about as credible as the one between Ron Dennis and Max Mosley at Spa in '07 after Spygate...

But they probably do need to have a quiet chat and get it sorted. It's all getting a bit tedious even if it is manna for the tabloids.

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I agree with this guy.

He doesn't seem to know anything about 'overlaps' though so take what he writes with a grain of salt!

Well, what's your assessment on the Webber and Lewis incident in Singapore 2010 then?

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Not necessarily. It might have implied that in circumstances such as these when it's almost six of one and half a dozen of the other, the only losers are the kids who can't swap places without breaking bits and losing places.

A case of 'go away and have a word with yourselves'.

A one-to-one chat away from the madding crowds is often the best way to resolve issues like these. Not play it out in front of everyone with dubious agendas.

As I say, I don't have an issue with it being a racing incident. I just suspect that had it been called as such, then many would have pointed to previous transgressions and applied blame. Apparently, if you have been involved in incidents before, then you must be at fault for any future incidents...........:whistling:

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Well, what's your assessment on the Webber and Lewis incident in Singapore 2010 then?

It wasn't exactly the same because it was a slower corner, but in any case I can't see why I should discuss it. Why not talk about the matter at hand?

I guess you would also have to question why Massa lied at first when he said he didn't see Lewis, only to change his story later and admit he did see Lewis before they came together :whistling:

Also I don't seem to recall Massa saying he didn't see Hamilton. I didn't read anything like that since the race.

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It wasn't exactly the same because it was a slower corner, but in any case I can't see why I should discuss it. Why not talk about the matter at hand?

You said in your original post - I 'm aware we don't have the evidence the stewards had but I just can't understand how the driver in front can be blamed

So, we are talking about the matter at hand. Surely, when discussing an incident like this it is acceptable to refer to other similar instances? It is a common practice to try and gain an understanding, even if the incidents are not exactly the same.

Also I don't seem to recall Massa saying he didn't see Hamilton. I didn't read anything like that since the race.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/15513318.stm

He first says he doesn't see him on the left, then he says 'when I see he put the car on my side, I braked on the clean side and he was behind me'

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I'm not sure what's to win here even if Massa was proven guilty of conspiring to crash against Hamilton and make him break up with Nicole AND Adrian. :P

Even in that case, the prblem with Hamilton remains the same. Race incidents or not, provoked by him or by some strange disease that makes other drivers crash only when they are close to his car (well, ok, except for Schumi and Koba)the fundamental problems with Hamilton are still there. Trying to excuse him on every single incident he has been having in this nightmarish season must be both tiresome and an excercise in futility.

Best case scenario: you can say that Massa is as incompetent as we most of us already know :P

Worst case scenario; you will have to admit that a guy who has to explain why he was at the wrong moment in the wrong place every friggin' weekend, being beaten by his teammate by quite a margin and having showed but some random sparks of genius here and there is far from the finest Lewis version possible. You can quote Senna till hell feezes over, but Senna wasn't just about pushing people out of the track and "going for the gap" blindly like a sailor after 2 years at sea. That is entertaining, no deny in it. We are all being highly entertained to watch him pass cars like a maniac until he finally crashes against Massa or whoever is the flavor of the day. Of course, I also have lots of fun watching Big Bang Theory's Sheldon yet that does not make him the next big name in F1. Nobody questions that Lewis is exciting to watch. Nobody thinks he has no talent whatsoever. What most of us doubt is whether this approach will give him anything else but what he is getting right now. If he wants to also become a legend and not a skinnier Montoya, then he should crash less and drive more. Will you guys stop rooting for him if he suddenly decided to think twice before trying to overtake the guy in front and await for the proper moment?

You might hate Alonso's guts but do you honestly think that Alonso is boring, just because he can muscle his wait through but also bide his time before striking? Do you seriously think he lacks the talent? Do you seriously think so low of Lewis' other talents besides speed and sheer determination to overtake no matter the risks that you rather defend this abysmal season he is having instead of hoping he goes back to his much more mature 2010 style of driving and growing up from there?

Sometimes I wonder if I am not more of a Lewisteric than you :P Because I still have faith that he can do better, so much better than what he is doing today. Because he can do a lot better than having a feud with Massa (with Massa, nonetheless!!!) and could be battling against Vettel with the car he has and could have kept Button in a secondary role if he only have remained focused enough, no matter how much Jense had developed his talents this year.

Oh, well...

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You said in your original post - I 'm aware we don't have the evidence the stewards had but I just can't understand how the driver in front can be blamed

So, we are talking about the matter at hand. Surely, when discussing an incident like this it is acceptable to refer to other similar instances? It is a common practice to try and gain an understanding, even if the incidents are not exactly the same.

http://news.bbc.co.u...ne/15513318.stm

He first says he doesn't see him on the left, then he says 'when I see he put the car on my side, I braked on the clean side and he was behind me'

With all due respect but Massa didn't say what you said:

Here it is:

But Massa argued: "My view is that I braked later than him, I was in front, I was on the grippy area and then I started to turn and I don't see him on my left.

"He is behind and then he touched my rear wheel. To be honest, I don't understand why I have the penalty."

Isn't this exactly what happened? He meant he didn't see him while he was turning in, which is true. He hit his rear wheel!

There is an onboard video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaVaOFDy3C4

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I'm not sure what's to win here even if Massa was proven guilty of conspiring to crash against Hamilton and make him break up with Nicole AND Adrian. :P

Even in that case, the prblem with Hamilton remains the same. Race incidents or not, provoked by him or by some strange disease that makes other drivers crash only when they are close to his car (well, ok, except for Schumi and Koba)the fundamental problems with Hamilton are still there. Trying to excuse him on every single incident he has been having in this nightmarish season must be both tiresome and an excercise in futility.

Best case scenario: you can say that Massa is as incompetent as we most of us already know :P

Worst case scenario; you will have to admit that a guy who has to explain why he was at the wrong moment in the wrong place every friggin' weekend, being beaten by his teammate by quite a margin and having showed but some random sparks of genius here and there is far from the finest Lewis version possible. You can quote Senna till hell feezes over, but Senna wasn't just about pushing people out of the track and "going for the gap" blindly like a sailor after 2 years at sea. That is entertaining, no deny in it. We are all being highly entertained to watch him pass cars like a maniac until he finally crashes against Massa or whoever is the flavor of the day. Of course, I also have lots of fun watching Big Bang Theory's Sheldon yet that does not make him the next big name in F1. Nobody questions that Lewis is exciting to watch. Nobody thinks he has no talent whatsoever. What most of us doubt is whether this approach will give him anything else but what he is getting right now. If he wants to also become a legend and not a skinnier Montoya, then he should crash less and drive more. Will you guys stop rooting for him if he suddenly decided to think twice before trying to overtake the guy in front and await for the proper moment?

You might hate Alonso's guts but do you honestly think that Alonso is boring, just because he can muscle his wait through but also bide his time before striking? Do you seriously think he lacks the talent? Do you seriously think so low of Lewis' other talents besides speed and sheer determination to overtake no matter the risks that you rather defend this abysmal season he is having instead of hoping he goes back to his much more mature 2010 style of driving and growing up from there?

Sometimes I wonder if I am not more of a Lewisteric than you :P Because I still have faith that he can do better, so much better than what he is doing today. Because he can do a lot better than having a feud with Massa (with Massa, nonetheless!!!) and could be battling against Vettel with the car he has and could have kept Button in a secondary role if he only have remained focused enough, no matter how much Jense had developed his talents this year.

Oh, well...

Ok, well I like Lewis, but as you know I am Schumi fan, so I have no idea why you are aiming this at me. Nevertheless....

I have criticised Lewis' judgement quite a few times this year, as you well know, but fair do's, I just don't think this was one of those times. Not his best moment by far, but certainly not worthy of criticism beyond an acceptable misjudgement? A racing incident end of. Both drivers should have known better, but hey sometimes it happens. I'd also like to know when I have defended Lewis this season?

When have I ever said I hate Alonso's guts? When have I not said he is a good driver, one of the best all round packages? Obviously, I wind you up about him, but that's just because it is so easy. Let's not forget though, as good as Alonso is, wasn't it the start of last year or the year before or whenever it was, that he had a pretty awful start to the season with regards to mistakes, crashes, etc? If you are talking about comparitively bad performances, then the high esteem in which you hold Alonso surely makes that performance for the first half of the season just as bad?? Only the fact that he had the best car by a long way for the 2nd part of the season plastered over the mistakes :whistling:

I am obviously nowhere nears as much a Lewisteric as you as honestly I do find the races less exciting if Lewis is not attacking and possibly the knowledge that he may make a mistake, this year at least, makes it more tense. Nobody else seems to do it with the same vigour, except for maybe Kobayashi who unfortunately is usually a bit further down the pack, but it's better if the front guys are keeping each other honest.

Yes, Lewis could and should be so much more. I doubt we are going to see it this season, though. And I will await judgement on next season, but I think it may take him more time than that to get over the current season.

And you need to read my posts better, typical bollocking Alonso fan :lol:

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With all due respect but Massa didn't say what you said:

Here it is:

Isn't this exactly what happened? He meant he didn't see him while he was turning in, which is true. He hit his rear wheel!

There is an onboard video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaVaOFDy3C4

But Massa argued: "My view is that I braked later than him, I was in front, I was on the grippy area and then I started to turn and I don't see him on my left.

"He is behind and then he touched my rear wheel. To be honest, I don't understand why I have the penalty."

When pressed for further explanation, Massa said: "I didn't do anything wrong. When I see he put the car on my side, I braked on the clean side and he was behind me. If he was wheel-to-wheel I would not try to close the door."

The video also shows Lewis pretty much alongside him, Lewis dabs the brakes earlier when he sees Massa going to turn in, presumably. I said all this earlier. Lewis got out the previous corner much better, it was a reasonably acceptable attempt as he couldn't get him in the drs zones, for whatever reason. Wasn't the best attempt, wasn't the worst.

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Ok, well I like Lewis, but as you know I am Schumi fan, so I have no idea why you are aiming this at me. Nevertheless....

I have criticised Lewis' judgement quite a few times this year, as you well know, but fair do's, I just don't think this was one of those times. Not his best moment by far, but certainly not worthy of criticism beyond an acceptable misjudgement? A racing incident end of. Both drivers should have known better, but hey sometimes it happens. I'd also like to know when I have defended Lewis this season?

When have I ever said I hate Alonso's guts? When have I not said he is a good driver, one of the best all round packages? Obviously, I wind you up about him, but that's just because it is so easy. Let's not forget though, as good as Alonso is, wasn't it the start of last year or the year before or whenever it was, that he had a pretty awful start to the season with regards to mistakes, crashes, etc? If you are talking about comparitively bad performances, then the high esteem in which you hold Alonso surely makes that performance for the first half of the season just as bad?? Only the fact that he had the best car by a long way for the 2nd part of the season plastered over the mistakes :whistling:

I am obviously nowhere nears as much a Lewisteric as you as honestly I do find the races less exciting if Lewis is not attacking and possibly the knowledge that he may make a mistake, this year at least, makes it more tense. Nobody else seems to do it with the same vigour, except for maybe Kobayashi who unfortunately is usually a bit further down the pack, but it's better if the front guys are keeping each other honest.

Yes, Lewis could and should be so much more. I doubt we are going to see it this season, though. And I will await judgement on next season, but I think it may take him more time than that to get over the current season.

And you need to read my posts better, typical bollocking Alonso fan :lol:

Nah, I wasn't aiming it at you. You should have noticed by now that I never bother reading your posts at all. Even more so, I am only replying to your post based on what I guess you might be saying there. :P

My reply was aimed just at the generic Lewis defender.

And with regards with all the rest you said, no, I don't think that rumanian room decorators make good porn stars. I wonder where did you get that notion!

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I agree with QO, mostly. And Pablo. It was a racing incident. I think the main thing is:

1) Massa knew he was there.

2) Lewis made an attempt to avoid the incident (by dabbing the brakes earlier) whereas Massa didn't.

Therefore I can see why Messy got a penalty; although (with the caveat that I haven't seen the extra data) I wouldn't have given a penalty to either of them.

And really, who has the "right of way" for the corner in such a situation is a matter of competing theories, like whether you believe the guy who is alongside and on the inside has more of claim or the whether the person slightly in front and on the racing line has the corner. Pick whichever theory you like but it isn't clear who really had the right to take the corner as they please, hence racing incident.

Conclusion: in Hammy's situation I wouldn't have gone for that move there against Massa, or would at least have to back out earlier. A small misjudgement I think, but points to the fact that Lewis doesn't have an overtaking dial, but more of a switch which is always on maximum attack (which as QO pointed is entertaining sure but very difficult to always maintain good judgement/not be at the mercy of others' stupidity with that approach). In Massa's situation I would have given more room, or not allowed him to put his car there in the first place and put him on the outside of the racing line where there would be no question as to whose corner it was (which points to Massa's general incompetence as a racing driver mf_tongue.gif) .

Sorry, can't resist Massa bashing! But anyway, I think that's about it.

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