HandyNZL

Abu Dubby Grand Prix

71 posts in this topic

Red Bull 2010: best car by a mile. Vettel won but he didn't place the car where it belonged.

Red Bull 2011: best car by a mile again. Vettel has done a perfect season and he puts the car where it belongs every race.

He's a amongst the best drivers of the grid no doubt.

Nobody can tell he's the best, nobody can deny he could very well be the best.

Time will tell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well if you are happy with that then great. Im not. And if its the car thats winning the title, which you clearly state is the case, then why is the driver world champion? Lets put the car on the top step and pour champagne over it.

Of course the car is vital to a successful campaign but it is not everything, look to Webber's position for proof of that, and nobody could reasonably deny that F1 is a team sport where the driver represents the work of hundreds of people. With that in mind, is it ridiculous that the driver's contribution (let's say: 20%) is "less" than that of the team? It does not seem absurd to me. Furthermore, within that 20% there still seems to be enough room for differences in pace between team mates.

With regard to the superior car generally winning the title, the main two things this indicates is: 1) the aforementioned contribution of the driver being relatively "low" (although you will note that in MotoGP where the rider contribution is much higher it is still usually the best bike that wins, and this was also the case in the history of F1 where the driver made more of a difference), and, 2) that the standard of driving is relatively high. Since F1 will never be a spec series (as this is impractical to teams on a fundamental basis) there will always be some significant gaps between the cars. Therefore, any argument for the superior car winning less often would have to centre around either the driver's contribution being increased, which as MotoGP and indeed Formula One history shows, generally would not make any difference to the eventual winner; or the standard of driving being reduced (somehow?) so that a driver in a great car could not always exploit it (make mistakes, off the pace, etc) and therefore an inferior car might win.

The former idea of higher contribution would make no difference (although of course, might be more fun to watch but that's a separate issue) and the latter is impossible to produce, excluding putting random members of the public in the car or other ridiculous concepts, of course. So, as we can see, we are stuck with the superior cars winning because there will always be differences between the cars, and talented driver's to exploit them. I wouldn't want it any other way, personally.

Now for matters of perception: winning either of the separate car or driver world titles is an objective success based on the points. But objective success isn't everything, and we can make subjective judgements too such as your "Alonso would probably beat Vettel in the same car", or "Alonso's car was not as dominant in 2006 as Vettel's in 2011, so his title is more impressive". Everybody is capable of forming their own judgement based on objective success and their subjective interpretations of it, on SV for example, despite his 2 WDC's there is hardly a consensus that he is the best. You mentioned Vettel getting the "glory of the design team", yet; most followers of F1 are more than aware of the facts I laid out in this post, so it's not like we are having the wool pulled over our eyes and being convinced he is better than Senna; Vettel always thanks the team for their hard work; and clearly, Vettel also brings glory to the team by maximising his opportunities (again, take a look at Webber) so it is a two way street. In that sense, I don't understand your issue at all, unless you think everyone else but you is unaware of the basic nature of F1 racing, where different drivers win because the cars are different.

Edited by #46

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course the car is vital to a successful campaign but it is not everything, look to Webber's position for proof of that, and nobody could reasonably deny that F1 is a team sport where the driver represents the work of hundreds of people. With that in mind, is it ridiculous that the driver's contribution (let's say: 20%) is "less" than that of the team? It does not seem absurd to me. Furthermore, within that 20% there still seems to be enough room for differences in pace between team mates.

With regard to the superior car generally winning the title, the main two things this indicates is: 1) the aforementioned contribution of the driver being relatively "low" (although you will note that in MotoGP where the rider contribution is much higher it is still usually the best bike that wins, and this was also the case in the history of F1 where the driver made more of a difference), and, 2) that the standard of driving is relatively high. Since F1 will never be a spec series (as this is impractical to teams on a fundamental basis) there will always be some significant gaps between the cars. Therefore, any argument for the superior car winning less often would have to centre around either the driver's contribution being increased, which as MotoGP and indeed Formula One history shows, generally would not make any difference to the eventual winner; or the standard of driving being reduced (somehow?) so that a driver in a great car could not always exploit it (make mistakes, off the pace, etc) and therefore an inferior car might win.

The former idea of higher contribution would make no difference (although of course, might be more fun to watch but that's a separate issue) and the latter is impossible to produce, excluding putting random members of the public in the car or other ridiculous concepts, of course. So, as we can see, we are stuck with the superior cars winning because there will always be differences between the cars, and talented driver's to exploit them. I wouldn't want it any other way, personally.

Now for matters of perception: winning either of the separate car or driver world titles is an objective success based on the points. But objective success isn't everything, and we can make subjective judgements too such as your "Alonso would probably beat Vettel in the same car", or "Alonso's car was not as dominant in 2006 as Vettel's in 2011, so his title is more impressive". Everybody is capable of forming their own judgement based on objective success and their subjective interpretations of it, on SV for example, despite his 2 WDC's there is hardly a consensus that he is the best. You mentioned Vettel getting the "glory of the design team", yet; most followers of F1 are more than aware of the facts I laid out in this post, so it's not like we are having the wool pulled over our eyes and being convinced he is better than Senna; Vettel always thanks the team for their hard work; and clearly, Vettel also brings glory to the team by maximising his opportunities (again, take a look at Webber) so it is a two way street. In that sense, I don't understand your issue at all, unless you think everyone else but you is unaware of the basic nature of F1 racing, where different drivers win because the cars are different.

Nice post and some good points.

However if you cant understand that I think that the season is a waste of time because one car is so much superior to the others then Ill explain it a bit more clearly. I think the season is a waste of time because one car is clearly so much superior to the others. Does that make more sense!?

Its not about the driver this sport, and if by wanting it to be, then maybe I am watching the wrong sport. Maybe I need to face that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice post and some good points.

However if you cant understand that I think that the season is a waste of time because one car is so much superior to the others then Ill explain it a bit more clearly. I think the season is a waste of time because one car is clearly so much superior to the others. Does that make more sense!?

Its not about the driver this sport, and if by wanting it to be, then maybe I am watching the wrong sport. Maybe I need to face that.

Do you really think that their car was THAT superior this year, Vettel had to really fight for some of his wins this year. He excelled during some hi-pressure situations. Also, I think him achieving those poles makes it look that more dominant. The Brawn year was perfect example of a superior car relative to competition, both drivers won races. So was the shumie 2002 -2004 domination years. B4 that the Mclaren ruled...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

However if you cant understand that I think that the season is a waste of time because one car is so much superior to the others then Ill explain it a bit more clearly. I think the season is a waste of time because one car is clearly so much superior to the others. Does that make more sense!?

No. Because as people are trying to explain to you, superior cars and subsequent winning of races in superior cars has always been a feature of F1. There haven't been too many eras when there hasn't been a superior car. I would suggtest maybe it's more an issue of superior cars combined with good reliability?

What eras that you have watched did you find to be interesting?

Its not about the driver this sport, and if by wanting it to be, then maybe I am watching the wrong sport. Maybe I need to face that.

That would be like watching the Oxford-Cambridge boat race and wishing the emphasis was on the oars. All the parts contribute to the whole, but the percentage atributed varies. In F1 it is weighted towards the car. I can't see it being any different any time soon, so yes, you are watching the wrong sport, unfortunately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you really think that their car was THAT superior this year, Vettel had to really fight for some of his wins this year. He excelled during some hi-pressure situations. Also, I think him achieving those poles makes it look that more dominant. The Brawn year was perfect example of a superior car relative to competition, both drivers won races. So was the shumie 2002 -2004 domination years. B4 that the Mclaren ruled...

Yes, I think it was. Yes, he has had to fight for wins and also he has breezed some as well. Yes, he has been good in some high pressure situations and he has also messed up in some too.

I think what may take the bias away from the superiority of the car is that Webber has not been at his best this season, for whatever reason. That's not to take it away from Seb who has been excellent this season. You can only beat what's in front of you and he has done that pretty much all season.

So yes, I do think that the car has been that superior, only some poor starts from Webber and some great driving from Button, Alonso, etc, have made it appear closer at times. I do think that if Webber had performed like he did last year, then he would be in a solid 2nd place and the constructors champ would have been wrapped up much sooner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I think it was. Yes, he has had to fight for wins and also he has breezed some as well. Yes, he has been good in some high pressure situations and he has also messed up in some too.

I think what may take the bias away from the superiority of the car is that Webber has not been at his best this season, for whatever reason. That's not to take it away from Seb who has been excellent this season. You can only beat what's in front of you and he has done that pretty much all season.

So yes, I do think that the car has been that superior, only some poor starts from Webber and some great driving from Button, Alonso, etc, have made it appear closer at times. I do think that if Webber had performed like he did last year, then he would be in a solid 2nd place and the constructors champ would have been wrapped up much sooner.

oh ok

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yay, it's Abba Flabba Dabbi Doo.

Hopefully like what happened in my last dream a giant meteor will strike the earth, causing more devastation than 10 nuclear bombs will spice the race up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its not about the driver this sport, and if by wanting it to be, then maybe I am watching the wrong sport. Maybe I need to face that.

Maybe you are? Maybe you should watch and support marathon's where it is just man v man and woman v woman...only the best will win.

But then maybe they had better running shoes?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe you are? Maybe you should watch and support marathon's where it is just man v man and woman v woman...only the best will win.

No, no, no if you want to go minimalist, just watch porn :)

A "friend" suggested that...

.........well, actually it was Paul :)

.........and, he's not really my friend as he doesn't have time to be friendly with anyone given his obsessive porn consumption habits; he only visits this forum to give himself a short break :D

He had to explain to me what porn was, as, of course I have never watched it <cough>...

But then maybe they had better running shoes?

Doh! the porn idea would not work, as I'm sure one type of rubber Johnny would be "better" than another :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and Vettel pulls out another stunner when I thought he was dead and buried by Hamilton and Button, what an amazing lap. What an amazing driver...

Sebastian Vettel, Master of the F1 Universe

Edited by BradSpeedMan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and Vettel pulls out another stunner when I thought he was dead and buried by Hamilton and Button, what an amazing lap. What an amazing driver...

Sebastian Vettel, Master of the F1 Universe

what is so special to be 1,5 tenth in front of jenson button and lewis hamilton :unsure:

he doesnt drive a HRT

he looks less special when two drivers get close to his pole time

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what is so special to be 1,5 tenth in front of jenson button and lewis hamilton :unsure:

he doesnt drive a HRT

he looks less special when two drivers get close to his pole time

Your words on F1 master Sebastian Vettel is starting to sound a bit hallow. Like dead leaves fallen from the trees, rustling and rattling in the wind....

All you Vettel haters just can't quite understand...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your words on F1 master Sebastian Vettel is starting to sound a bit hallow. Like dead leaves fallen from the trees, rustling and rattling in the wind....

All you Vettel haters just can't quite understand...

when you cut out words about vettel , it sounds like good poetry to me

EDIT:SOMETHING

Edited by Caesar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All you Vettel haters just can't quite understand...

It's just because he's German... :unsure:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All you Vettel Bieber haters just can't quite understand...

I didn't know you were a fan of Justin Bieber Brad?

Still, I guess this makes sense then.

vettelu.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, no, no if you want to go minimalist, just watch porn :)

A "friend" suggested that...

.........well, actually it was Paul :)

.........and, he's not really my friend as he doesn't have time to be friendly with anyone given his obsessive porn consumption habits; he only visits this forum to give himself a short break :D

He had to explain to me what porn was, as, of course I have never watched it <cough>...

It's all a lie, I don't need any breaks from porn. I actually look at porn at the same time as being on this forum. Which is why some of my posts get sidetracked from time to time :whistling:

Oh and I am naked whilst typing this single handedly..............or should that be one handed :eusa_think:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and Vettel pulls out another stunner when I thought he was dead and buried by Hamilton and Button, what an amazing lap. What an amazing driver...

Sebastian Vettel, Master of the F1 Universe

He keeps sandbagging in Q1 and Q2 :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Breaking news: Felipe Massa and Lewis Hamilton will not be involved in any accident together at Yas Marina.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hamilton inherits P1 from the Master of the Universe.

Alonso inherits P2 from the Master of the Universe.

Bernies Ecclestone goes to comfort the Master of the Universe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now