Kimi Returns - So What?

[Insider 0]

And another thing;

Whilst apathy, objectivity and fence sitting does not thought provoking debate make, I encourage all of you to put a more rounded opinion on your posts.

This forum was at its very best when we all knew what our various allegiances/dislikes were, but respected them by giving and taking.

Many of you are child like in your observations and comments, or too stubborn.

Remember, none of us actually know what we are talking about (although we think we do). The way to find the real answers is to share opinions and reach 'most likely' conclusions as a result. This process is all to often blurred by members holding firm and not having the maturity to admit they might be wrong. Then mud slinging and personal insult gets thrown in, people groan, then leave.

This is why the forum is thin on the ground.

It should be vibrant and full of debate; we have just had a great season. All to often, I find myself scrawling through tripe and only reading then replying to members who I know are adding something worth reading. This can't be right.

There must be new fans coming to the sport who are intellignet and insightful. We just don't seem to attract them anymore.

So, those of you who are thinking through your posts, I urge you to continue. Those of you who are not fans of the sport or just come here to add piffle because homework is getting you down, please think or go away.

I'm up for a mass forum cull right now.

*edited for spelling, grammar and obnoxiousness.

Hear, hear.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Many of you are child like in your observations and comments, or too stubborn.

UP YOURS FOR THE LINE ABOVE!!!!!!!!

How's that for childish and stubborness!

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Hear, hear.

I STILL NEED TO RESPOND TO U'RE FIRST POST IT'S JUST I'VE PRETTY HECTIC HERE AT WORK....soon

[yurp 0]

It should be vibrant and full of debate; we have just had a great season. All too often, I find myself scrawling through tripe and only reading then replying to members who I know are adding something worth reading. This can't be right.

*edited for spelling, grammar and obnoxiousness.

A for content, D for spelling and grammar, C+ for obnoxiousness.

Must try harder Steven.

...But I am curious as to which post above this is in relation to Steve. Or was this just a general outburst having read several threads - I know how it tends to build up.

I've been trying to take a leaf out of Andres' book recently and take myself less seriously whilst still maintaining my goal to make the occasionally interesting post.

[HandyNZL 1]

And so the hype returns as was seen about Michael...although I would imagine Kimi will actually be the better of his team mate over a season (though this will probably be more in part to the fact his team mate will be Grosjean or Senna, and not someone more capable like Rosberg).

Maybe I am being pessimistic here, but the Renault have not had a good car since Alonso won his two WDC's back in '05 and '06...that's five seasons ago. I don't believe that Lotus, nee Poochie, have the wherewithal to produce a car to that degree again. They were one of those teams that had their few years of stardom and then fade. F1 is full of those sorts of teams. Even if you take into account that Lotus, nee Renault, were nee Bennetton, their two seasons in the sun were in the mid '90's, almost (yikes) 20 years ago.

A driver alone can not make that much of a difference to the car's overall performance / position in the pecking order. For example, for all of Alonso's talent, he hasn't managed to get that Ferrari consistently at the front (or sometimes even close to that), because the cars ultimate performance was short of Red Bull and McLaren. Same can be said for Mercedes...two capable drivers, one considered the greatest ever, and neither can get the car past it's ultimate limit. Sure, one race now and again, thanks to some tactics on the pitwall (again not the driver doing the deed, he's just following a plan), or a bit of attrition, or some rain / mixed weather.

And Kimi will fall exactly back into that position. Sure the hype will be there at the start of the season. But if that car is not capable of P6 of higher, then he will surely slide off the media's conscience, except for the "when will he quit" article that will be posted every other month.

So whilst it will be a great statistical record next year with six World Drivers Champs on the grid (14 titles amongst them), the reality is that he will be midfield P10 or worse. Because F1 is all about the car. Always has been, since day dot. The drivers know that...they know they are but one employee in 600 (just so happens that they get the unfair majority of the fame and fortune, but this is more for the fact that they might get killed and they are relatively a rare species)...why did Senna switch to Williams? Because he just had his backside spanked in '93, and they had the best car.

All drivers want to be in the best car, so that they have the best chance at winning.

We all know that the black and gold car will not be the best next year. So then, what is Kimi's reason for signing on?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

We all know that the black and gold car will not be the best next year. So then, what is Kimi's reason for signing on?

alot to prove after Ferrari.... I would say bringing the car to the front of the grid, as he suggested ...

remember Kimi's talent is innate, not MS that has to work twice as hard as it is'nt that natural to him. Kimi's ability to extract speed coupled with his feeling for the surface of the road will help propel the car forward in development. Luckily his teammate won't have a mentor like MS that choose to side with his protege and the team start building the car around him. Kimi needs to be the preference...and renault WILL succeed...

watch this space

[HandyNZL 1]

Yeah, but it's not the driver that brings the car to the front of the grid. That's just bollocks they say to make them all sound fantastic and amazing. It's the team behind them, the guys at the factory, the guys on the drawing boards, the guys on the pitwall (and lets be honest here, that team has made some horrible strategy calls this season).

The driver WANTS to be at the front. He WANTS to think that what he does gets the car closer to the front.

But in reality, it's Jonny Noname that designed the latest front wing that moved the car closer to the front.

Let me put it this way (by using someone else's words):

"I do not want to be talking all the time about me, myself, I. Motor sport is selfish sport, but every victory is like an iceberg. The small part of the iceberg that is visible is your drive in the race; it receives all the glory. But under the waterline is the majority of the iceberg: the mechanics of course, but also the talents of the people back at the factory who designed and built the car. Most of the winning is done before the car even gets to the track; the driver is just there to finish the job. As a driver you may become famous, and nowadays you may also become very rich. But you are only the final link in a long chain of many people who live in the shade, who work hard to do their jobs right, and who get the satisfaction when the whole combined enterprise achieves what it was striving to do.

"I only have one regret, looking back on my time in motor racing. In those days I was sort of a monorail, I was always thinking about myself and about winning. That is what it is like when you are a racing driver: mentally you are not very grown-up. I respected the people who helped me, of course, and I always had the courtesy to say thank you to them. But I regret not being more aware of all the links in the chain. The victories were theirs, not mine; but I was not big enough intellectually to see it.

"Now I have grown up, I have more of a 180-degree vision. So that's why I will have lunch with you: to give myself a chance to acknowledge publicly what I owe."

Jacy Ickx

"Lunch With..." interview, Motorsport Magazine, October 2011.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Yeah, but it's not the driver that brings the car to the front of the grid. That's just bollocks they say to make them all sound fantastic and amazing. It's the team behind them, the guys at the factory, the guys on the drawing boards, the guys on the pitwall (and lets be honest here, that team has made some horrible strategy calls this season).

The driver WANTS to be at the front. He WANTS to think that what he does gets the car closer to the front.

But in reality, it's Jonny Noname that designed the latest front wing that moved the car closer to the front.

Let me put it this way (by using someone else's words):

"I do not want to be talking all the time about me, myself, I. Motor sport is selfish sport, but every victory is like an iceberg. The small part of the iceberg that is visible is your drive in the race; it receives all the glory. But under the waterline is the majority of the iceberg: the mechanics of course, but also the talents of the people back at the factory who designed and built the car. Most of the winning is done before the car even gets to the track; the driver is just there to finish the job. As a driver you may become famous, and nowadays you may also become very rich. But you are only the final link in a long chain of many people who live in the shade, who work hard to do their jobs right, and who get the satisfaction when the whole combined enterprise achieves what it was striving to do.

"I only have one regret, looking back on my time in motor racing. In those days I was sort of a monorail, I was always thinking about myself and about winning. That is what it is like when you are a racing driver: mentally you are not very grown-up. I respected the people who helped me, of course, and I always had the courtesy to say thank you to them. But I regret not being more aware of all the links in the chain. The victories were theirs, not mine; but I was not big enough intellectually to see it.

"Now I have grown up, I have more of a 180-degree vision. So that's why I will have lunch with you: to give myself a chance to acknowledge publicly what I owe."

Jacy Ickx

"Lunch With..." interview, Motorsport Magazine, October 2011.

Yeah, I see what u mean... Let's say that Kimi WILL be up to speed reasonably quickly, this is what I expect from a charged up Iceman....and let's see what Renault can come up with...

nice article btw

[BradSpeedMan 6]

as you've said but I did'nt really listen

[dribbler 6]

A for content, D for spelling and grammar, C+ for obnoxiousness.

Must try harder Steven.

...But I am curious as to which post above this is in relation to Steve. Or was this just a general outburst having read several threads - I know how it tends to build up.

I've been trying to take a leaf out of Andres' book recently and take myself less seriously whilst still maintaining my goal to make the occasionally interesting post.

too [tuː]

adv

1. as well; in addition; also can I come too?

2. in or to an excessive degree; more than a fitting or desirable amount I have too many things to do

3. extremely you're too kind

4. US and Canadian informal indeed: used to reinforce a command you will too do it!

too right! Brit, Austral, and NZ certainly; indeed

to (t; t when unstressed)

prep.

1.

a. In a direction toward so as to reach: went to the city.

b. Towards: turned to me.

2.

a. Reaching as far as: The ocean water was clear all the way to the bottom.

b. To the extent or degree of: loved him to distraction.

c. With the resultant condition of: nursed her back to health.

3. Toward a given state: helping minority women to economic equality.

4. In contact with; against: their faces pressed to the windows.

5. In front of: stood face to face.

6. Used to indicate appropriation or possession: looked for the top to the jar.

7. Concerning; regarding: waiting for an answer to my letter.

8. In a particular relationship with: The brook runs parallel to the road.

9. As an accompaniment or a complement of: danced to the tune.

10. Composing; constituting: two cups to a pint.

11. In accord with: job responsibilities suited to her abilities.

12. As compared with: a book superior to his others.

13.

a. Before: The time is ten to five.

b. Up till; until: worked from nine to five.

14.

a. For the purpose of: went out to lunch.

b. In honor of: a toast to the queen.

15.

a. Used before a verb to indicate the infinitive: I'd like to go.

b. Used alone when the infinitive is understood: Go if you want to.

16.

a. Used to indicate the relationship of a verb with its complement: refer to a dictionary; refer me to a dictionary.

b. Used with a reflexive pronoun to indicate exclusivity or separateness: had the plane to ourselves.

"All too often" stands, I believe. (And now I score A+ for obnoxiousness)

Was just a general outburst.

And it's "Stephen". I prefer "Steve". You were not to know this.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

too [tuː]

adv

1. as well; in addition; also can I come too?

2. in or to an excessive degree; more than a fitting or desirable amount I have too many things to do

3. extremely you're too kind

4. US and Canadian informal indeed: used to reinforce a command you will too do it!

too right! Brit, Austral, and NZ certainly; indeed

to (t; t when unstressed)

prep.

1.

a. In a direction toward so as to reach: went to the city.

b. Towards: turned to me.

2.

a. Reaching as far as: The ocean water was clear all the way to the bottom.

b. To the extent or degree of: loved him to distraction.

c. With the resultant condition of: nursed her back to health.

3. Toward a given state: helping minority women to economic equality.

4. In contact with; against: their faces pressed to the windows.

5. In front of: stood face to face.

6. Used to indicate appropriation or possession: looked for the top to the jar.

7. Concerning; regarding: waiting for an answer to my letter.

8. In a particular relationship with: The brook runs parallel to the road.

9. As an accompaniment or a complement of: danced to the tune.

10. Composing; constituting: two cups to a pint.

11. In accord with: job responsibilities suited to her abilities.

12. As compared with: a book superior to his others.

13.

a. Before: The time is ten to five.

b. Up till; until: worked from nine to five.

14.

a. For the purpose of: went out to lunch.

b. In honor of: a toast to the queen.

15.

a. Used before a verb to indicate the infinitive: I'd like to go.

b. Used alone when the infinitive is understood: Go if you want to.

16.

a. Used to indicate the relationship of a verb with its complement: refer to a dictionary; refer me to a dictionary.

b. Used with a reflexive pronoun to indicate exclusivity or separateness: had the plane to ourselves.

"All too often" stands, I believe. (And now I score A+ for obnoxiousness)

Was just a general outburst.

And it's "Stephen". I prefer "Steve". You were not to know this.

I'm not debating with you anymore... I'll just say Schumie sucks and so forth

[yurp 0]

We all know that the black and gold car will not be the best next year. So then, what is Kimi's reason for signing on?

I think we talked about this a couple of weeks ago. If I were part of RedBull's management, having seen what happened with Schumi taking a whole season and a half to get back into the groove, I'd like to see Kimi spend a year at Renault and then make my judgement as to whether to go after him in 2013.

Seats at Macca and Ferrari in the future are incredibly unlikely (people don't tend to return to an old team as a rule of thumb), but Merc might get better and Schumi might retire again if Nico beats him for a third season running OR Mark may finally bow out (or get shoved out) of that RBR seat that's wasted on him. Equally, Massa might finally depart Ferrari which could start a driver shuffle opening up something for Kimi too.

Poochie is a good place for Kimi to be for now. It's a half decent midfield team with increasing competition from FI, TR & Perhaps Williams. He'll be able to prove (or fail to prove) he still has his abilities during 2012 and then the 2013 driver shuffle might offer up some more options.

Frankly, he could never expect to walk straight back into a top team and seeing as their drivers are all locked in, that couldn't happen anyway. Renault will either be his stepping stone, wake up call or a disaster - whichever it turns out to be everyone will get to find out next year and only Renault are in a position to loose out (which I don't think they will, since their alternatives are Petrov/Senna/Grosjean).

[yurp 0]

"All too often" stands, I believe. (And now I score A+ for obnoxiousness)

Was just a general outburst.

And it's "Stephen". I prefer "Steve". You were not to know this.

Yes - you originally wrote "to", I corrected it to "too" with my red marker.

F (with an A- for delusions of grandeur)

Step hen

[dribbler 6]

I'll just say Schumie sucks and so forth

Are you saying this is why he finished in that position in Canada?

[dribbler 6]

Yes - you originally wrote "to", I corrected it to "too" with my red marker.

F (with an A- for delusions of grandeur)

Step hen

Oh bugger. Once again I was two quick to try and look clever.

Time for a petlant outcry of "twatface!" me thinks.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Are you saying this is why he finished in that position in Canada?

no man, don't be silly

[Quiet One 15]

About drivers: I might know zilch about mechanics, and that is why I naturally tend to focus more on the drivers. But I don't think they are just the last link in a chain with just a tiny more relevance than the other guys behind. The cars, even in this era of mechanical dominance are no more than 70-80% of the package. Of course, the cars play a HUGE part, but I am not saying anything too surprising if I say that drivers can make a huge difference as well. No need to be a statistics freak to notice that in the past 2 years of RBR dominance you got:

1) A very dominant Vettel (a little hesitant, last year with a still maturing car) opposed to a laborious, gritted teeth fighting Webber to be just the 3rd best on average, on the same car.

Small aside on "teams who have a clear number-one-favorite-spoilt-driver-prodigal-son": even assuming that, the most cynical of the team principals (think Briatore rubbing his hands and laughing diabolically) would want his number two to finish behind his number one, but as close as possible. Hardly cause enough to sabotage every pitstop, most of their starts and enjoy watching their number two being humiliated and losing very valuable championship points.

So 3rd on average (and only just so) is not a flattering place for Mark. And I am the first to admit that MW was never treated as an equal as SV, but still not excuse enough for his poor starts which made him fought harder to achieve what he would have had merely if he kept his place at the start on most races.

2) On the second best car (on average, Ferrari got some peaks on where they were better) are the McLaren's drivers. Would you say that those cars were the same car, gave the same spectacle being in the hands of Jenson or Lewis? Definitely not. And both were 4 and 5 on average on this car.

3) Alonso, 2nd best (on average) on the third best on average) car. And then there's Massa...

Drivers cannot turn a bad car on a great car, but expecting so is not only naive, it means you are missing a lot from Formula 1. F1 is an acquireed taste, Kovalainen on his "I cannot believe it's not a Poochie" car performed unsung wonders this year. Buemi vs Algosaurus was a battle in which you could understand why sometimes the guy with the most points is not necessarily the best. Buemi seems more consistent and certainly more tidy as a driver, but Jaime was the guy who seemed capable of pushing the car beyond the limits, albeit he obviously is still far from being capable of doing so a la Alonso or Kubica with some degree of regularity.

To watch F1 is like listening to a symphony. If you just hear the main theme, you will notice just a few notes, almost always performed by the first violin. That's enough for pop songs, but to enjoy a symphony and the orchestra performing it you need to follow the dialogues between the different themes, the variations, the particular ability of that cello player, making a subtle countetheme vibrate with unexpected brilliance in the middle of the second movement, or the subdued melancholy of a clarinet amidst an adagio.

Oh, well, I probably let myself go to far, but you get the idea, I hope.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I'm not expecting Kimi to perform miracles, but to bring it from high midfiled to competing for wins, please don't get me wrong

[Negative Ions 0]

Look, either way, whether the old school guys here who learnt to use a browser so they could type in this forum, or the younger, edgier, less patient more in your face guys are right. Kimi is good for the sport, lets enjoy him and see what he can do. I wonder if he has bought up some of the team?

To the old school guys, here's some keyboard short-cuts you may find useful, saves time for making cups of tea and lighting the fire.

http://browsers.about.com/od/tipstricks/a/browsershortcut.htm

[yurp 0]

Oh bugger. Once again I was two quick to try and look clever.

Time for a petlant outcry of "twatface!" me thinks.

I will be accepting my obnoxiousness medal at the end of season TF1 grand gala awards ceremony.

Thank you everyone who made this possible... me.

the subdued melancholy of a clarinet amidst an adagio.

I was rather melancholy when my clarinet got subdued by a patch of adagio too. It was all prickly and itched for weeks afterwards.

Other than that - yes to all the sensible stuff - though I'd say 80% equipment, 20% driver - let me work out a statistically dubious way of proving that later.

Personally I would rank Button ahead of Alonso this year in terms of driver performance (attempting to ignore cars, which is always subjective as your post indicates).

If I were to try to rate the top few drivers on this years performance only, trying to allow for equipment...

Vettel (yes - he got to drive out in front most of the year, but you can't argue with the kind of consistency he showed in qually and races.)

Button (I'd say his style of driving suited the tyres and car this year - calm and calculated.)

Alonso (a solid third.)

Rosberg

Schumacher

Hamilton (43 points off his team mate)

Webber (134 points down on Vettel!)

Massa (139 points down on Alonso!)

EDIT - I tried to find a statistically dubious way to prove Button did better than Alonso, but it ended up telling me that de la Rosa was actually the best driver of the year. ****ing clippo strikes again!

[Kopite Girl 0]

alot to prove after Ferrari.... I would say bringing the car to the front of the grid, as he suggested ...

remember Kimi's talent is innate, not MS that has to work twice as hard as it is'nt that natural to him. Kimi's ability to extract speed coupled with his feeling for the surface of the road will help propel the car forward in development. Luckily his teammate won't have a mentor like MS that choose to side with his protege and the team start building the car around him. Kimi needs to be the preference...and renault WILL succeed...

watch this space

I'm so happy reading this! Welcome back Sir Brad of the Kimitron Enterprise!

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I'm so happy reading this! Welcome back Sir Brad of the Kimitron Enterprise!

always my pleasure

It will take a while for the hype of his return to calm down for me. Can you imagine the first race next year? I used to be a nervous wreck everytime Kimi was in a position to win, and simply love it...

Bring on 2012!!!!!!!!!!

edit: now the support is double, as I support Vettel too, so I don't mind who wins really...

[dribbler 6]

It will take a while for the hype of his return to calm down for me. Can you imagine the first race next year? I used to be a nervous wreck everytime Kimi was in a position to win, and simply love it...

Bring on 2012!!!!!!!!!!

I remember running around like a demented idiot in my pink specs when Michael came back. Now, the smell of urine on the smouldering ashes of my Schumi fire makes me screw my nose to the extent that the glasses slide off my nose and fall into the warm embers.

Good luck though, Brad.

[pabloh20 1]

always my pleasure

It will take a while for the hype of his return to calm down for me. Can you imagine the first race next year? I used to be a nervous wreck everytime Kimi was in a position to win, and simply love it...

Bring on 2012!!!!!!!!!!

edit: now the support is double, as I support Vettel too, so I don't mind who wins really...

You say that now, but you just wait. As soon as Kimi is in a race, you will be supporting him frantically above all others. Let's just hope he does better than Schumi did on his return

Anyway, I am glad Kimi is coming back. I know a lot of people didn't like his personality, but that's because the rest of you are all too idiotic to appreciate the elevated intelligence of true poker face, dry wit. Only Brad and I have the intellignece itnellgenci intllengenc brains required to appreciate this fine art

[Quiet One 15]

Well, now that he is part of the Poochie family, I guess I should also try to defend him.

Er...let's see...

This is great news, I'm 100% behind Bully Boullier on this. After all, why keep a guy like Petrov???? All he does is crash the car at every chance possible, cannot properly handle the press and drinks lots of vodka!!!

Kimi, on the other hand...

Wait...