So. You're Frank Williams

[dribbler 6]

It didn't always used to be like that. Frank has been known to pass up a driver with talent when he could have had him cheaply only to re-hire the same driver years later for a ton of cash. He's also refused to pay good talent with a proven record at car design. It's a wonder Williams have survived all these years with such a crazy business philosophy.

I'll tell you here and now that I don't think Frank Williams knows what the hell he's doing. His team has only tasted success accidentally; off the talents of technical people and drivers he's stumbled into hiring and who proved to be a gold mine of talent. And after he's mismanaged that talent, and said talent leaves the team, we then see Williams stumble and fall. I think everyone is now clued to this and Williams is finally reaping the harvest of years of bad decisions.

Controversial, I know, but true (as I see it).

So what should he do? Nothing he *can* do at this point. He's incapable of making a good choice.

Were he smart, he'd worry less about the driver and more about getting a design 'star'.

I fear you may be right. His latest decsion to go the double pay driver route is shameful. If he at least chose racer talent over bucks he would be true to his old school racer traditions. But no, this is just all a bit of a shame. I do think thought that there was more to his success than luck, back in the day. Frank and Patrick were true innovators. These days they are dinosaurs hanging on to an F1 that killed off everyone else with a Manufacturer tie up meteor. Williams had their chance with Munich, but they blew it. I don't see the way up from here.

[Autumnpuma 0]

I fear you may be right. His latest decsion to go the double pay driver route is shameful. If he at least chose racer talent over bucks he would be true to his old school racer traditions. But no, this is just all a bit of a shame. I do think thought that there was more to his success than luck, back in the day. Frank and Patrick were true innovators.

In what way? They had early success, but p!ssed the talent off (mostly by underpaying them) that created the success...and the talent left.

Williams had their chance with Munich, but they blew it. I don't see the way up from here.

I suppose, but this is one business decision of Frank's that I understand. BMW wanted to own the team. I think Frank did right by telling them to take a hike because, ultimately, most manufacturers will abandon their team and bail out of the sport.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Williams certainly has a bad track record of losing talent. I'd be happy for the Ralfie & Montoya days of Williams at this point, let alone the Senna, Mansell, Hill, JV days. Frank gone off his boil I think. Too many years of making bad decisions. And I think Patrick Head played a crucial role in the team more than folks realise. But he's retired now and it's let to Frank to front the team. Just how much decision making he does other than the drivers and sponsorship I don't know. I do understand he's trying to stay alive as a racing team, but accepting $45m for a driver who would have never been a candidate for one of their race seats says it all.

For a driver to pay $45m for a seat is ridiculous. With that kind of money PDVSA could have just bought out HRT or Virgin and branded the whole team with their logos. As it is now, they aren't exactly getting their monies worth in car coverage. Heck I thought up to this point they were some small fry sponsor on the car.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Williams certainly has a bad track record of losing talent. I'd be happy for the Ralfie & Montoya days of Williams at this point, let alone the Senna, Mansell, Hill, JV days. Frank gone off his boil I think. Too many years of making bad decisions. And I think Patrick Head played a crucial role in the team more than folks realise. But he's retired now and it's let to Frank to front the team. Just how much decision making he does other than the drivers and sponsorship I don't know. I do understand he's trying to stay alive as a racing team, but accepting $45m for a driver who would have never been a candidate for one of their race seats says it all.

For a driver to pay $45m for a seat is ridiculous. With that kind of money PDVSA could have just bought out HRT or Virgin and branded the whole team with their logos. As it is now, they aren't exactly getting their monies worth in car coverage. Heck I thought up to this point they were some small fry sponsor on the car.

The Ralfie/Montoya days saw a great car designed by Gavin Fisher. Gavin, like so many talented folk Frank stumbled into, left the team later on..it is somewhat unknown what his real reason for leaving was (the official reason sounded odd). Most of those days can be credited to Fisher and BMW. Senna, Mansell, Hill, JV days: Senna tested for Frank before he drove a car in F1. Frank passed him up. Later Frank paid through the nose to hire him. Brilliant, Frank. All the rest can pin their success mostly on the car. JV and Mansell were quick in their own right, but they dominated because of the car. It all comes back to the talent Frank has employed (mostly people that were new or had fallen on bad times..remember Newey was fired as Leyton House's results plummeted and Frank snatched him up on the cheap).

After revealing team members with talent, Frank has consistently mis-managed them and underpaid them until they left him for greener pastures.

Other teams have squandered their talent as well but perhaps Sir Frank's biggest success is that he's still putting cars on the grid.

[Massa 0]

Mike's posts are pretty interesting to read, and while a lot of this predates me, I have a hard time disagreeing. It's prompted me to wonder, a bit...

I think we all have a tendency to attach ourselves to the very best something ever was, and just assume that that's what it truly is, rather than really try to think about why it was that way and why it isn't that way now.

You see it with Ferrari, too, I think. We all like to think of Ferrari as what they were in 2000-2004, but from what I gather (and it could be dead wrong, some members here aren't particularly old and could still be my grandparents), the decade-and-change preceding that era featured a team that was essentially a manifestation of Felipe Massa on a larger scale: cute and cheerful with spirit, character, and heart, stumbling into the odd success, something you noticed and felt a vague sympathetic attraction to, pathetic to the point you don't even bother to criticize them because you're more embarrassed for them than frustrated. Sometimes, the right people just congregate in the right place, take you to great success, and then they leave, and you find what's really at the core of the team to begin with: now Ferrari's back to just being a pretty name on an ugly team and rather than being surprised they aren't contending, we should be surprised they ever had gotten back to being a championship team.

I realize it doesn't work as well on them being the most successful team, and there's an element of exaggeration, but I think it illustrates what I see in Williams. F1 is often viewed through the British lens, and that's not a bad thing at all so don't take that the wrong way, and as such, Williams becomes "Our Team" with "Our Nige" driving and there's just an attachment to that era and a few years after. But just because they were winning doesn't mean they were well-run, doesn't mean they had a formula for success, doesn't mean they were visionaries or heroes. Fans want the norm for them to be the title years because they gave them happiness, but it's not the case.

It happens all the time outside of F1; why do people stay past their welcome in relationships, or keep going back? Because they subconsciously want to remember something at its best, they let that override the bad stuff, because clearly, the best must be the true side. No justifications, it's just what we assume, we want to assume it.

So why do we keep coming back to Williams and to Ferrari? Why do we stay with them? Are they really that great? Or do we just attach ourselves to a greatness, and rather than explore why they had that greatness and why they lost it, we just figure, to win in this game, you have to have some tremendous merit?

Now let's have someone more well-versed in F1 history, maybe even witnessing it themselves, tell me I'm wrong. Please.

[HandyNZL 1]

Eric, you're...w....w.....wr......wro......wron......wron......wron....feck it, you're pretty much on the money, honey.

For years leading into 2000-2006, Ferrari was just a big name, with the occasional good year, or good race. Then they got the best four people of the time in the same team at the same; Schumacher, Brawn, Bryne, and that Astro Calderano fellow, or whatever his name is.

In the previous years they had the occasional innovation too, with flappy pedals and the like.

As for Williams...he started off buying his chassis, then manufacturing, and as Mike has said, got the single best talent in F1 for a period of a few years, just when the engineering and innovations were at their peak. The Leyton House car was a beautiful thing, hampered by budget and team...then Newey took everything he wanted to do, and put it into Frank and Pat's cars, and we got:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjbc1tmKi6g

[yurp 0]

Peaks and Troughs boys, peaks and troughs.

Ferrari are a team with history, heritage and ... MONEY.

No matter how bad things get during the slumps, they have always been able to continue in F1. And by continuing (with the funding they have), eventually their time comes again. Thus it has always been and thus it will always be.

Yes they had the dominant Schumi Era - WCC from 1999-2004. But don't forget the 1982-1983 WCCs. And what about the 1975, 76, 77, 79 era?

Ferrari are a fixture in F1 and as such they will keep pumping money in, re-jigging their team and dragging themselves from trough to peak and back again. It's about having the cash to continue when success eludes them.

EDIT

But this thread was about Williams so...

They have the history and heritage, but not the money. The trough is beckoning, we may be witnessing the start of the end.

[dribbler 6]

In what way? They had early success, but p!ssed the talent off (mostly by underpaying them) that created the success...and the talent left.

By being innovators of car design. Nothing to do with whether they did or din't underpay anyone.

I suppose, but this is one business decision of Frank's that I understand. BMW wanted to own the team. I think Frank did right by telling them to take a hike because, ultimately, most manufacturers will abandon their team and bail out of the sport.

In one breath you damn Williams' principle of running the team how he wants, then (i.e. by never having paid top wages to anyone)then in effect support it by suggesting it was the right thing to do by not embracing BMW. They may or may not have left the sport, but one things seems likey; Williams would be doing a whole lot better now, had they harnessed the culture of being backed by a manufacturer. Bucking the trend for the sake of independence was short sighted. The results are clear for everyone to see right now. Just my view.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Sorry, Steve, I forgot I posted here...

By being innovators of car design. Nothing to do with whether they did or din't underpay anyone.

They had nothing to do with car design. They lucked into talent they got on the cheap. Then they lost that talent.

In one breath you damn Williams' principle of running the team how he wants, then (i.e. by never having paid top wages to anyone)then in effect support it by suggesting it was the right thing to do by not embracing BMW. They may or may not have left the sport, but one things seems likey; Williams would be doing a whole lot better now, had they harnessed the culture of being backed by a manufacturer. Bucking the trend for the sake of independence was short sighted. The results are clear for everyone to see right now. Just my view.

Not being bought by BMW is only a bad thing when you pair that with Frank's mis-management of the team. Had the team a proper structure with good people, they wouldn't have *needed* to embrace BMW (as you suggest).

As an example of the reverse, look at McLaren. They didn't give over to Mercedes and they did fine. If your thoughts on this are 'clear' to see, perhaps you need new glasses?

EDIT: It's a few hours later and what I typed up there makes no sense. Steve, you had it right to point out my contradiction. I stand by my belief that Frank runs his team like crap and I should count *not* letting BMW buy into Williams as another mistake. Clearly the team needs what BMW could have offered them. I suppose when I originally wrote that I was voicing support of the independents and forgetting that Williams was the one independent that could benefit from being bought-out.

Now I've gotta go make an appointment to get new glasses....

[dribbler 6]

Sorry, Steve, I forgot I posted here...

They had nothing to do with car design. They lucked into talent they got on the cheap. Then they lost that talent.

Not being bought by BMW is only a bad thing when you pair that with Frank's mis-management of the team. Had the team a proper structure with good people, they wouldn't have *needed* to embrace BMW (as you suggest).

As an example of the reverse, look at McLaren. They didn't give over to Mercedes and they did fine. If your thoughts on this are 'clear' to see, perhaps you need new glasses?

EDIT: It's a few hours later and what I typed up there makes no sense. Steve, you had it right to point out my contradiction. I stand by my belief that Frank runs his team like crap and I should count *not* letting BMW buy into Williams as another mistake. Clearly the team needs what BMW could have offered them. I suppose when I originally wrote that I was voicing support of the independents and forgetting that Williams was the one independent that could benefit from being bought-out.

Now I've gotta go make an appointment to get new glasses....

As usual, I agreed with your rebuttal. Then when I read your edit, I started to wonder if I agreed with myself after all. Then I went back to agreeing you were right. As I type, I actually think I was right. As I click 'Add reply' I think you are.

You're probably regretting that you remembered to come back and comment.

I think I proabably do need some new glasses. That would be nice. And more sleep. Maybe a little psychiatric advice at the same time.

Frank has made some bad decisions. This has no doubt affected the teams current standing. McLaren in similar circumstances, have handled it just fine. You are right. There. I knew it was in there somewhere.

4.30am baby Drib induced start. Apologies.

[Autumnpuma 0]

As usual, I agreed with your rebuttal. Then when I read your edit, I started to wonder if I agreed with myself after all. Then I went back to agreeing you were right. As I type, I actually think I was right. As I click 'Add reply' I think you are.

You're probably regretting that you remembered to come back and comment.

I think I proabably do need some new glasses. That would be nice. And more sleep. Maybe a little psychiatric advice at the same time.

Frank has made some bad decisions. This has no doubt affected the teams current standing. McLaren in similar circumstances, have handled it just fine. You are right. There. I knew it was in there somewhere.

4.30am baby Drib induced start. Apologies.

I'm pretty sure you were right.