JHS18

European Touring Car Championships

122 posts in this topic

Haha good question. I don't think it is intentional, but yeah, it is a bit strange. I don't think the FIA are really doing themselves any favours by having their dates on the same days as DTM - a series that is heavily backed by Germany's three largest car manufacturers.

But, I don't think it really is an issue. Both series have different markets really, different audiences. You only have to look at how different the cars are in both championships. It'd be a different story if say, they were both S2000 based championships, but they're not, so... tongue.png

Honestly, it is hard to say which championship is in a better position right now. DTM has big budget manufacturers spending loads with easily the superior driver line-up. But then again, WTCC has Chevrolet, Ford and Honda will be joining in the fun in 2013. WTCC has an American race that absolutely no-one will care about, DTM had a round in China in the past that absolutely no-one cared about. I'd say though, despite Chevy's dominance, WTCC is a lot more exciting in terms of on track action. Shame then that DTM has the more exciting cars (at least on paper).

What that has to do with your original question, I have no idea. tongue.png

Looking ahead on both calendars, there's only one more date clash. But that's ages away on the 21st October when WTCC is racing in Japan and DTM's racing at Hockenheim, so with the time difference even that isn't a real clash.

Edited by JHS18

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Hand and Wickens still suck. Wickens should have taken the GP2 offer he had...Mercedes isn't a free pass to F1 if you are going to be this awful.

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One week after Norbert Haug publicly threatens to release Wickens for lack of performance, Coulthard defends him.

http://www.theglobea...306/?cmpid=rss1

Coulthard can say that, but some guy named Paul di Resta was just fine in his first year of DTM after formula cars.

Wickens is destined for IndyCar, if there's even an IndyCar when Mercedes cuts him. Doesn't have what it takes. Too bad. I almost got to have a driver I really liked and followed for years and years before F1. tongue.png

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Second DTM race is a row that's actually been quite entertaining. A wet/dry/wet/dry race at the Norisring street track. Jamie Green takes the lead of the race from Tomczyk on the last corner on the last lap.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100853

Hopefully someone will upload the finish of the race, but whilst you wait, here's a clip of the first corner chaos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npcdvU-L6BQ&feature=g-u-u

Have to say though, the English commentators (think I was watching an ESPN stream) are dreadful. Seriously annoying voices. Nearly gave me a headache so muted it and played music over the top instead. :P

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Cool finish, thanks for posting.

Figures that Wickens finally gets points but is so far behind his teammate, some old guy whose day job is going deaf to Ben Edwards. ;)

Kid can't catch a break (because he can never make his own breaks...I guess both North American talents, Wickens and Alex Rossi over in WSR, have been exposed for what they really are this year...two guys who would dominate IndyCar if there were an actual future for IndyCar, but aren't going to get the time of day in the big show). :P

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Furthermore, I hope you didn't think I was going to make a post in this thread that wasn't lamenting Wickens' decision. :P

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I saw the Wickens/Hand post coming from a long way off I'm afraid. :P

But on a serious note, I've criticised DTM before - but Brands Hatch aside, this season had been kinda okay so far, which is surprising. The last race at the Red Bull Ring (what was the A1 Ring before) was a good race too, with Mortara taking his first win in a three way scrap that went down to the wire. That was in dry conditions too. Hockenheim and Eurospeedway were decent races as well.

I don't think you should be too critical of Wickens. I guess I'm right in guessing that this is the first year he has raced a car with a roof? That probably takes some getting used too, especially when (according to David Coulthard) c#ckpit temps were reaching 50 degrees in practice.

Also, you have to consider the tiny margins that split DTM - you look at qualifying and the top 17-18 or even more are covered by a second. It is probably one of the closest championships in the world right now in terms of that aspect of it. Lastly, there's more experienced rookies (if that makes any kind of sense) who Wickens seems to be matching - so I wouldn't say he's doing terribly. If he was two seconds a lap off the pace, maybe, but I wouldn't say it is too bad right now. :P

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Relevant: Nissan may do WTCC or DTM:

http://www.touringcartimes.com/article.php?id=7833

They don't really have a model in Europe right now that'd meet FIA regulations to do WTCC...plus the way that series is looking right now (on shakey ground to put it lightly) it may not be the best long term investment they're looking for.

DTM would be interesting. People forget that it IS open to manufacturers who aren't German. Opel raced in it till about 2004-2005 before it became Audi vs Mercedes for years. Again, I'm not totally sure what car they'd use. On the basis that there's still talk of a link up between Super GT and DTM and the cars are pretty similar, logic dictates that they'd run the GT-R.

I still think though, whatever they do that a sports car programme is the most likely way they'll go. They've upped their support, particularly in LMP2, in recent years and they gained great exposure from the Deltawing. Plus in sports cars more than any other form of racing, there is the platform to develop new hybrid technologies that they can use on their road car market, so it makes sense. But we'll see. It is great to see Nissan looking at so many different forms of racing. I did hear talk that the WRC was something else they were looking at as well.

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On the basis that they take a Vauxhall/other GM branded vehicle and just put an Opel badge on it, yes. tongue.png

Opel's last DTM car:

Opel-Dtm--66499.jpg

Kinda makes sense if Nissan are interested based on the talk a few weeks ago that a couple of other manufacturers are interested in DTM. Seems like one of those is Nissan.

Edited by JHS18

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DTM would be interesting. People forget that it IS open to manufacturers who aren't German. Opel raced in it till about 2004-2005 before it became Audi vs Mercedes for years. Again, I'm not totally sure what car they'd use. On the basis that there's still talk of a link up between Super GT and DTM and the cars are pretty similar, logic dictates that they'd run the GT-R.

I would't say DTM and superGT are totally interchangeable. Having been to the SuperGT race at Sepang, (though only able to see DTM on the telly) I would say that SuperGT cars run at a faster pace. Their traction out of corners seem to be much stronger.

Agree though that a conversion from SuperGT to DTM will be very easy for Nissan. Its just a matter of what silhouette degree does the DTM allow, since SuperGT seems to be quite permissive of quite extreme rule interpretations.

I would encourage you to check those Super GT races out. If you like DTM you'll like Super GT. And Eric, those Honda HSV's sound sublime

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And Eric, those Honda HSV's sound sublime

Now I have to try to find these races! I'll be on the lookout for Super GT.

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MAJOR BREAKING NEWS.

Chevrolet are to pull out of the WTCC at the end of this year.

I'll try and get it officially confirmed soon, but that's what I'm hearing.

Big surprise, and just as I said the series was looking on shakey ground...

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Here it is from Chevrolet officially:

http://www.chevroletwtcc.com/news/2012/chevrolet-to-leave-the-world-touring-car-championship/

Comes as quite a surprise. Given their withdrawal from BTCC last season, it seemed as if they were happy to go along with the WTCC S2000 regulations.

Where does the FIA go from here? Given Chevrolet's announcement, as it stands there will be only one full time manufacturer team on the grid next year, Ford.

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There has been speculation that Honda may enter as a manufacturer next year, but this news, and whatever happens now, may change that. We'll see.

The WTCC is not in good shape.

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Chevy pulling out of the WTCC may be a bad thing for the series commercially, but with Honda manufacturer coming in, they should be battling with the SEATs for next years championship with the BMWs and Fords getting closer it will be a much better season with more competition for wins .

DTM is the best Touring Car series now, after years of Mercedes Vs Audi, BMW has come in a really stirred things up

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If anyone's going to be checking out the WTCC races this weekend, let me know how they are (or were). I absolutely love Sonoma Raceway. It's a fantastic track with some really awesome corners.

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The racing was pretty good, except rather predictably a Chevrolet won each race. But otherwise, on the little I've seen of the WTCC this year - fairly good.

An article about it actually - take from it what you will. Says more than 20,000 people turned up. That's not half bad.

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So the DTM season is over. I won't say who the champion is as I'm not sure if Eric knows/wants to know at the moment. But it was a good season and a good way to end.

Now on to 2013, last year of these regulations before the series shares common rules with Super GT. Like last year, there's plenty of opportunity for drivers moving around manufacturers. BMW's return has really spiced things up, since before Audi and Mercedes had a gentleman's agreement not to poach drivers off each other and keep a sensible cap on salaries. BMW's return has completely changed that.

There's the potential to see four new drivers at Mercedes. Ralf Schumacher, David Coulthard and Susie Wolff are either retiring or leaving the series. Meanwhile, Jamie Green is expected to switch to Audi, whilst BMW will field two more cars to match Mercedes' and Audi's numbers.

Here's my educated guess at how things will be, with little confirmed.

BMW

Bruno Spengler

Martin Tomczyk

Augusto Farfus

Andy Priaulx

Dirk Werner

Joey Hand

Marco Wittmann

Timo Glock

Audi

Edoardo Mortara

Mattias Ekstrom

Mike Rockenfeller? (Could leave and spend a year testing the new LMP1 Porsche)

Adrien Tambay

Jamie Green

Filipe Albuquerque

Timo Scheider (linked to Mercedes recently, but has dismissed such talk)

Miguel Molina

Mercedes

Gary Paffett

Robert Wickens

Christian Vietoris

Roberto Mehri

Ralf Schumacher?

Robert Kubica?

Interestingly, double Paralympic gold medal winner Alex Zanardi recently tested for BMW, a manufacturer he has links to from his WTCC days. Be interesting to see if that goes anywhere.

Edited by JHS18

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Could be wrong, but it sounded like Alguersuari was linked to BMW, not Mercedes. In fact, Ekström was rumored to BMW, too, but I guess a lot of guys are.

Is there any chance of Wickens moving up to a better Mercedes team? He doesn't deserve it; he was awful from what I've watched so far of this season (Bruno Spengler's championship year, in fact ;)), but that doesn't stop me from wanting that to happen. :lol:

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Totally forgot about Roberto Mehri. He should be back at Mercedes next year as well. So yep, as I said at the start, four vacant seats there.

Interesting, I didn't know that. I do know that BMW tested Martin and Leimer not too long ago and were impressed with both, particularly the former who has been racing all kinds of GT championships from Blancpain, GT1, GT International and probably some others this year. He did Le Mans in LMP1 in 2011 as well. And then there's Zanardi who would be super cool to see back racing, but isn't he still wanting to do Indy for next year?

If Green does go to Audi, logic dictates one of their existing drivers will either move or be pushed aside. Given Wolff's gone, that could be Rahel Frey who disappears.

On Wickens - Autosport report this week he could well be Gary Paffett's team mate next year at HWA. HWA actually run four cars, this year they had Paffett/Vietoris and Green/Schumacher, so any of those three cars could be Wickens'. Apparently Mercedes were quite impressed with him this year after that initial comment early in the season.

Edited by JHS18

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I think Zanardi's BMW run was just an exhibition to celebrate some number of years of BMW in motorsport. Not sure about his Indy 500 plans; it would conflict with the Brands Hatch round (qualifying for Indy is that weekend).

When looking for those conflicts, I found this, confirming Wickens and Merhi: http://www.auto123.com/en/racing-news/dtm-mercedes-confirms-merhi-et-wickens-for-2013?artid=148303

Very interesting to hear Mercedes were impressed, thanks. I don't know if he was ever an F1-caliber driver, but I'd like for him to have a good career in DTM if he could. He turned down Carlin's GP2 team this year, and given that even Max Chilton won races, I figure Wickens could have! :lol:

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Well, I think it will be interesting to see how Wickens does in his second year. Given it was his first year driving a car with a roof, and it must have been a massive different to get used to from coming out of Renault 3.5, he did a good job.

Look at Mortara. 2011 was his first year. He struggled to start with, and then hit form, and then this year was the only driver from Audi to win a race. Actually won two.

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Also, a couple of other points.

DTM are looking at strategy becoming a bigger part of races. Hankook are working on an F1 style tyre with a soft option that degrades fairly quickly and a harder prime.

I believe there's also been discussion about doing away with the mandatory pit windows and allowing them to make a pit stop whenever they like.

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