Replacing Massa

[BradSpeedMan 6]

One only has to look down the history to note Ferrari's achievement as a one-man band. It's not pretty. Sure, they had incredible resources(as I've mentioned) with the Schumacher era but I personally regard that as a freak period. Plus the competition Michael had were nothing compared to what it is today. Let's not forget the effect of Senna's death....

It has'nt been working down the ages and it is still not working today! Finish. Nada. Nassuno. Capische

FFS!!!

[Quiet One 15]

Again, every team has a number one and number two drivers. Ask DC at Macca, or Prost. Ask Webber. The fact that one guy might be number one at one time and number two at another does not change that simple fact. The difference between RBR/Ferrari and Macca/Merc is that they have the same number one guy over and over. But that's a merit from the number one driver as well. Massa has anything but lacked support from the team. So he was asked to move over for Alonso in 2010 and that's why he sucks? Really? He was always mediocre (not bad, let's say average). Yet they stuck with him all through his injuries and far beyond that even when he failed to give them even some minor points. ANd it's not a case of "because he does not overshadow Alonso". There are many drivers out there who cannot overshadow Alonso, who would probably get along better with Alonso (it is noticeable the efforts Nando do not to show his despise for Felipe) and most of them can at the same time bring more valuable points. We named just a few in this very thread.

No team commits suicide willingly. The only exception seems to be Ferrari at this moment, sticking with a guy that hasn't done anything interesting for the past 3 years. So, either they see something we cannot or they are really that emotional. I tend to be skeptic on the latter option but everything's possible. What I am sure of is that it is not being a case of Alonso wants him. What could they possibly see in Felipinho? I don't know. If it were so obvious people wouldn't be wasting time like we are now at every forum discussing this

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Again, every team has a number one and number two drivers. Ask DC at Macca, or Prost. Ask Webber. The fact that one guy might be number one at one time and number two at another does not change that simple fact. The difference between RBR/Ferrari and Macca/Merc is that they have the same number one guy over and over. But that's a merit from the number one driver as well. Massa has anything but lacked support from the team. So he was asked to move over for Alonso in 2010 and that's why he sucks? Really? He was always mediocre (not bad, let's say average). Yet they stuck with him all through his injuries and far beyond that even when he failed to give them even some minor points. ANd it's not a case of "because he does not overshadow Alonso". There are many drivers out there who cannot overshadow Alonso, who would probably get along better with Alonso (it is noticeable the efforts Nando do not to show his despise for Felipe) and most of them can at the same time bring more valuable points. We named just a few in this very thread.

No team commits suicide willingly. The only exception seems to be Ferrari at this moment, sticking with a guy that hasn't done anything interesting for the past 3 years. So, either they see something we cannot or they are really that emotional. I tend to be skeptic on the latter option but everything's possible. What I am sure of is that it is not being a case of Alonso wants him. What could they possibly see in Felipinho? I don't know. If it were so obvious people wouldn't be wasting time like we are now at every forum discussing this

They are not number ones, they are just better!!! Webber and DC had the same equipment!

Finish. Nada. Nassuno. Capische

[HandyNZL 1]

What utter tosh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I suppose Red Bull are only selling fizzy drinks to support their racing team!!!!!!!!!

This is the rose tinted crap that ferrari love to peddle - Fiat/Ferrari are just another European struggling car maker looking to improve the brand and therefore sales.

I honestly believe Nando is psychologically scarred by the mullering he received from the then rookie - Hammy.

As long as he's scared of having a top drawer team-mate, then the more responsibility falls on his shoulders - and so far, so far - he's looking like he's not capable of captaining Fiat in the way that Shumi could.

Actually the statement is true. Enzo Ferrari sold road cars to finance his race team. Ferrari was first and foremost a race car producer. They are every bit the same in DNA as McLaren or Williams for example.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

and the difference is that the team is built around Fernando in ferrari's case, which I think is not working

[Quiet One 15]

They are not number ones, they are just better!!! Webber and DC had the same equipment!

Finish. Nada. Nassuno. Capische

So are you implying that Nando is not better than Massa? What's wroing with you? Some piece of Rubens car hit you in the head?

[HandyNZL 1]

Some teams have number ones and will provide them with the best opportunities for success, but no team will put the other half of the team in a fully disadvantage position as that is just suicide for the team as a whole (won't be scoring as many points for a start, and if the number one has bad season, not all the eggs are in one basket) - when it works however, it works wonderfully eg Schumacher recently, and Alan Jones way back in the early days of Williams.

Some teams let the drivers race until such time as one is the more likely to win the championship. The problem with this approach is that whilst allowing freedom of your drivers, and securing decent constructors points, a third driver can come up and steal the championship through consistency - eg Raikonnen and Vettel's first championships as a very recent example.

Each approach requires political acumen from the team to manage the ego's that are drivers. Each approach can run into pitfalls, and neither approach should not be considered the worst. They both work, and they both fail.

[mikathegreat2 2]

Koba-f**king-yashi!!

[Insider 0]

The time for a one man band is over Sean... Finish, Nada. Nassuno. Capische. It does not work anymore in this competitive environment we have today, if you can't adapt and change then you have to die. Simples. This is not the era where Ferrari had unlimited testing capabilities neither the support of the only tyre maufacturer! Finish. Nada. Nassuno. Capische <-----Hey, I like this!

Finish. Nada. Nassuno. Capische

By all means if Ferrari should continue down this dark and gloomy road, I'll be grinning from ear to ear... Finish. Nada. Nassuno. Capische

The more I say this the more I like it!

FFS!!!!!

Now, now everything in moderation, Brad

[Caesar 0]

James Allen talking about the prospects of the Ferrari F2012:

"In the hands of Fernando Alonso it is capable of fifth place. In the hands of Felipe Massa... it's currently back in the garage."

[Massa 0]

Koba-f**king-yashi!!

Cam's got a cult following and all that, but do you really think he fits in at Ferrari? I figure it wouldn't last too long even if they wanted him. There are Ferrari guys and he's not one of them. I don't think Räikkönen really was, either, and that didn't work out at all for either party unfortunately.

I do wonder if bigger teams than Sauber ever look at him. Not so much Ferrari; they're a step down from Sauber right now since Kobayashi at least knows his team and the car well over there. But the other teams...what makes him special kind of disappears if he's in a car that qualifies toward the front where they all get spread out, right? Then it's less fun to watch the guy, and he's less of an asset to those teams than he is at the back-end of the points-paying positions.

[mikathegreat2 2]

Cam's got a cult following and all that, but do you really think he fits in at Ferrari?

Well seeing as he isn't taller than 6 foot 2 he should fit into a Ferrari no problem

[JHS18 0]

Cam's got a cult following and all that, but do you really think he fits in at Ferrari? I figure it wouldn't last too long even if they wanted him. There are Ferrari guys and he's not one of them. I don't think Räikkönen really was, either, and that didn't work out at all for either party unfortunately.

I do wonder if bigger teams than Sauber ever look at him. Not so much Ferrari; they're a step down from Sauber right now since Kobayashi at least knows his team and the car well over there. But the other teams...what makes him special kind of disappears if he's in a car that qualifies toward the front where they all get spread out, right? Then it's less fun to watch the guy, and he's less of an asset to those teams than he is at the back-end of the points-paying positions.

I think the problem Kobayashi has is the current rules.

In 2010 he was one of the best overtakers - alongside Hamilton. Remember his Suzuka drive? Pulled off overtake after overtake.

Now with DRS and the Pirelli tyres, both him and Hamilton have had to adapt their style. DRS hasn't made overtaking such a challenge that it used to be, and the Pirelli tyres mean they can't be as agressive as they'd like to be without burning up the tyres.

He's still good though - his drive in Melbourne was very strong. It'll be interesting to see if he and the team can put a strong season together - last season he started off quite well then endured a dry patch where he wasn't in the points. I think this year he has to improve his consistency, because on his day he is undoubtedly brilliant, but other days he's not really there.

I agree with you, I can't really see him as a big team driver at the moment. I'm not sure any of the top teams would be ready to take the risk, which is a shame as it'd be great to see what he could do in a better car.

[Massa 0]

I don't remember his Suzuka 2010 drive; I never saw it.

Anyway, you may be correct, but if DRS makes Kobayashi's ability to overtake less significant, doesn't being in a better car do the same? It's easier to overtake when you qualify worse than you should have. When you plant your Red Bull or McLaren on the front row, it's more about being able to manage a race, and that's not an area of Kobayashi's talent we've been able to scout a whole lot. Good overtakers are less of a premium the better the team you get to, and that doesn't mean that Hamilton/Alonso/Button/Vettel can't overtake, because we've seen them all do it, it just means that's not why they got their jobs.

I think he loses value in a better team.

Luckily for him, Ferrari isn't a better team.

Even luckier for him, they're going to try the same thing over and over and expect different results. Getting an offer to drive for Ferrari is like getting a date with a Kardashian...you say yes because you know the name on some strange perception it's good, but you find out pretty quickly it ain't what it's advertized as and you're messing with a weird inbred family that's got a bit too much wonkiness going on at the rear-end of the chassis for Massa to handle.

[Massa 0]

And the guy who should have replaced Massa was mentioned earlier. His nation's flag would match the uniform, and his nose would match the F2012. Shame the car wouldn't have been good enough for his demonym to match his starting position. Some say he can't pick up a glass to drink, all we know is, he's Robert Kubica.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I really don't see how Domenicali's fault. Maybe I view it too simply - but it's not as if he's the one designing the bad cars, or telling Massa how to perform, is it?

Maybe you should watch a Bug's life James.... the part where Hopper gives a leadership speech to a bunch of ants after they screwed up...quite thought provoking

[HandyNZL 1]

This bit?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

This bit?

no...this bit, but that bit is very thought provoking too... valueble life's lessons in that seemingly meaningless little animation movie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfDiptFpQBw&feature=related

[HandyNZL 1]

So which ant was Massa again?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

So which ant was Massa again?

the one on knees bumping into Hopper?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

my god, this thread has been everywhere! Thanks Andres err, I think

[JHS18 0]

I don't remember his Suzuka 2010 drive; I never saw it.

Anyway, you may be correct, but if DRS makes Kobayashi's ability to overtake less significant, doesn't being in a better car do the same? It's easier to overtake when you qualify worse than you should have. When you plant your Red Bull or McLaren on the front row, it's more about being able to manage a race, and that's not an area of Kobayashi's talent we've been able to scout a whole lot. Good overtakers are less of a premium the better the team you get to, and that doesn't mean that Hamilton/Alonso/Button/Vettel can't overtake, because we've seen them all do it, it just means that's not why they got their jobs.

Educate yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnPc_Z-QQjM

I think in a way DRS has partly helped, because we've seen quite a few brilliant non-DRS overtakes. But for whatever reason, Kobayashi hasn't been able to do that as easily as in 2010.

[mikathegreat2 2]

my god, this thread has been everywhere!

Have you not been on these forums before? This is what we users specialize in

[Quiet One 15]

Ok, I have no idea what are Massa's charms, but he MUST have something we are overlooking.

http://www.f1zone.net/news/ferrari-defends-under-fire-massa/13133/

Now, however speaks of Massa underperforming because of the team sabotaging him will be really unfair. I can't still say whether I am amazed or disgusted with the level of support these guys give him. Even if this new chasis they are giving him is actually a carton-built car, it is more than the guy has given back lately.

[Massa 0]

How do we know it isn't sabotage? Chassis 294 might be intentionally made worse than 293. You aren't suspicious that they're getting a new chassis ready with such a short turn-around to the next race? Overnight shipping from some guys in North Carolina selling a chassis on craigslist? It's got a pullrod suspension, after all...

The support for Massa, and you can tell I like Massa because I never say anything good about him, is just pathetic. That's why the management has to go. You can keep installing updates on Internet Explorer, but you aren't going to get it together until you switch to Firefox or Chrome or Safari or whatever else you guys use (my operating system, browser, and ISP are all an America Online Free Trial CD-ROM). IE has to be good, it's Microsoft, just like the Scuderia have to be good, they're Ferrari. It doesn't always work that way until you take a different approach (of course you could just go to NetScape and make it worse for yourself, too, and part of me doesn't trust Ferrari to replace Domenicali with the right guy even if they do replace him).

As I've said, I love the guy, but I hope with Massa, this is just a case of the old "the coach's job is safe, we have a system in place, we're playing the system, blah blah blah" press conference from the GM the week before they fire him. Everyone should be on short leashes over there, and the only one who is performing like he's got a fire under his *** is Fernando Alonso, which makes me vaguely concerned that a fire actually is under his *** and they're going to solve the problem of Massa's driving by getting rid of the thing that's making Massa's driving look even worse.