Grabthaw the Hammerslayer

Is It Me Or Is Vettel Looking Ordinary....?

300 posts in this topic

Watching Vettel last couple of races he's looked rather ordinary.

With no 5* car underneath him he is not looking such a champ...

Discuss.....

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Hmm...6th to 2nd in Australia....

Running strongly in the points till puncture today...

Yep, he's suddenly ordinary. :rolleyes:

I love this forum sometimes. Two races in and all hell breaks loose.

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:lol:

Hmm...6th to 2nd in Australia....

Running strongly in the points till puncture today...

Yep, he's suddenly ordinary. :rolleyes:

I love this forum sometimes. Two races in and all hell breaks loose.

Only as good as your last performance, some say. :P

I don't think the question being posed is "do you think Vettel's an awful driver blah blah blah?" I think it's...has Vettel looked as good in the past few races as he did last year? You can answer yes or no, and you can then use that yes or no answer to conclude as much or as little as you want. I saw nothing unfair with asking.

I've been interested that Vettel's been out-qualified by Webber in both races. I haven't watched qualifying for either race, though. Perhaps there are reasons for it?

Honestly, I think Vettel's just like all the other drivers. There's not much the driver can do to make a positive difference. So when the circumstances aren't great in a given race, whether it's the car or the weather or whatever, he's going to look ordinary, just like all the others, and when the circumstances are great, he's going to look spectacular, just like all the others. I don't disagree that these guys have different strengths and weaknesses as drivers, but I can't believe any of them are that much more special than any of the others. Some guys have "it," obviously. It's just that there are a lot of guys on the grid who have "it," too.

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Watching Vettel last couple of races he's looked rather ordinary.

With no 5* car underneath him he is not looking such a champ...

Discuss.....

Not as bad as Massa tho.

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Having watched replays and listened to the Beeb's Crack squad discuss what happened between Vettel and HRT, I think it's a little unfair - both how Vettel and Horner characterized the incident, and how NK got a post-race penalty. I didnt see how else to let them know that other than by posting this to their Twitter feed :

@redbullracing Absolute horseSh#t what Horner and Vettel are spewing about HRT causing the accident, watch the replay. Seb pulled a Turkey

I still dont how this twitter thing works :) Hope they got it.

Edited by brambilla

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Honestly, I think Vettel's just like all the other drivers. There's not much the driver can do to make a positive difference. So when the circumstances aren't great in a given race, whether it's the car or the weather or whatever, he's going to look ordinary, just like all the others, and when the circumstances are great, he's going to look spectacular, just like all the others. I don't disagree that these guys have different strengths and weaknesses as drivers, but I can't believe any of them are that much more special than any of the others. Some guys have "it," obviously. It's just that there are a lot of guys on the grid who have "it," too.

[Alonso is better than Denise Richards sticking her tongue in your ear mode on]

Allow me to disagree. If something came out ffrom the past races is HOW MUCH of a difference a driver makes. It is not just about points, but about potential points or position by the car itself and by the car/driver combination. The 2012 Ferrari seems to be on par with last year's Force India, being very optimistic perhaps on par with last year's Merc, only a lot worse. No stability, 12km/h slower than most cars on straigths, not gentle on the tires...and those are characteristics that affect both drivers.

Alonso is currently 1st in the championship. yes, yes, you will say these were just two races, and he was lucky because blah blah blah. He also got lucky in 2010 when with the 3rd fastest car he almost got a WDC because blah blah blah, and in 2011 he got lucky because blah blah blah...and the crashgate, and santander, and the Secret Powers that be, and so on. In synthesis, you will have to do a lot of "he got lucky" explanations to do to explain how a guy that hasn't got a half decent ride in ages has always been up there or whereabouts.

Let's do this. Let's imagine Alonso last year in an FI and any other driver in last years Ferrai. Do you think the car would have make those guys contendes in the way Alonso was? Let's switch Perez and Alonso's rides in Malaysia. Do you think Perez would have put the Ferrari up there? Do you think Alonso would have not won it by a mile?

Schumi looks ordinary in the Merc. Alonso would kill to have a car like that. You can count out Ferrari as a serious contender or not, but can you count out Alonso as easily?

If Ferrari brings a decent car (and I doubt so) it will be because Alonso keeps saving their asses long enough to keep them trying.

In that sense, very few srivers can accomplish that, despite their cars. How many podiums Other drivers got in better cars than a Renault 2009? Alonso snatched one.

Alonso didn't make just Massa look bad. If drivers are not much of a difference then the whole field looks bad compared to him, because so far, only t he guys with the absolutely best cars in the absolutely best conditions seems to more or less consistently make podiums and, sometimes, win.

Under that light, Vettel still needs to improve a good deal, but is in the right path. Lewis has it, but should stop trying to lose it. Button appears to have it slowly growing. Schumi? I think he had it, but I am starting to have my doubts.

Would like to add somebody else so as not to sound like much of a fanboy...but I can't honestly think of anybody in this era.

[/Alonso is better than Denise Richards sticking her tongue in your ear mode off]

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I think it's...has Vettel looked as good in the past few races as he did last year? You can answer yes or no, and you can then use that yes or no answer to conclude as much or as little as you want. I saw nothing unfair with asking.

I'd say yes. He's still the same driver - sixth to second, safety car benefit or not, is not a bad race by any means.

Today he was in fourth and was closing Hamilton down for third when he suffered a puncture. Maybe he was over driving the car today, but it is clear that Red Bull don't have the best car at the moment.

Certainly it isn't as bad as Massa's situation.

Maybe the story should be whether Hamilton is now ordinary? Two pole positions, no wins...

Just playing the Devil's advocate. :naughty:

Edited by JHS18

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It's you; The Moo Rouge is ordinary.

Seb looks more interesting than last year because he's overtaking and doing it well.

My arthiritic, pennyless Grandmother moaned less, though.

His index finger forgets what North looks like.

Things like that.

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Maybe the story should be whether Hamilton is now ordinary? Two pole positions, no wins...

And sitting second only to the tufty anomoly. Ordinary looks good from where I'm sitting.

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Surely then, the same must apply to Mr Vettel. I wouldn't call sixth place in the championship after two races a disaster, for the season is a long one.

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Vettel just needs to keep his nose pointing in the right direction, and not in the cucumber patch. Accept race incidents happen and move on. He's still young and has not yet matured in that sense. He could learn a lot from Button and Kimi (whom I wonder if you could ever wind him up).

He's still driving good, taking out other peoples front wings being excepted here. He qualified fairly closely to Webber on Saturday, even though he was on the hard tyre, and Webber the soft.

The car isn't THAT bad, and the McLaren isn't THAT good. It will be interesting to see the best in-season developer, McLaren, versus the ingenuity and drive of Newey and his boys over the season. Vettel will win this year, and I doubt only the one race...

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Hmm...6th to 2nd in Australia....

Running strongly in the points till puncture today...

Yep, he's suddenly ordinary. :rolleyes:

I love this forum sometimes. Two races in and all hell breaks loose.

Amazing is'nt it...Let them have their moment James

won't be for long when they wil blame his wins on the Newey factor again...

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Amazing is'nt it...Let them have their moment James

won't be for long when they wil blame his wins on the Newey factor again...

Indeed it is. It's funny how last year people were saying that they didn't think Vettel was much of a racer because he was just winning from pole.

Yet Hamilton - two poles in the fastest car currently, no wins...

What happened to the argument that it is so easy to win from pole then? :P

Ah, I'll let my driver bias slide. I'm not going to get into another "my driver is better than your driver" pointless argument...yet. ;)

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Hmm...6th to 2nd in Australia....

Running strongly in the points till puncture today...

Yep, he's suddenly ordinary. :rolleyes:

I love this forum sometimes. Two races in and all hell breaks loose.

Jim, I like you. But hold up. Wasn't you one of the ones at the beginning of last season panicking over Borerain saying it was going to be like that all season?

I agree with you though. Two races can't really give you a full perspective. However, I see Chris' point and not because I don't like Vettel. I think he means with a dodgy car he's not looking as special as he was with the great car. Some drivers can take a tin rustbucket and drive it to victory, some rely on the car more than driver skill although these days there's that many mod-cons, driver skill is almost being obliterated. I say give them a manual gearshift and a round steering wheel. That's cause I'm old now and I want to see true flat out pedal to the metal racing!

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He's looked much less impressive, and I think it's partially down to no blown diffuser, which seemed to be practically fact that he loved while Webber didn't. Another reasoning is that now he knows he doesn't have the fastest car, he's getting stuck in traffic and having to burn his tyres more than usual and not be able to be in control, which isn't his strong point, as has been seen in previous races.

Not only was he out qualified both races thus far, he was out qualified by a teammate missing KERS in Australia. Then in Malaysia, he was over ten seconds behind Webber before the Safety car which was only 6 or 7 laps. He's been off the road more in the first two weekends then he probably was in 2011, and he's absolutely raging about an incident that was at least 50% his fault, where as in 2011 he would have likely brushed it off a lot easier.

Doesn't mean he won't bounce back, doesn't mean he's not a good driver, but he is looking worse than last year, and his teammate has looked quicker, and only been behind him due to a poor start, and a Sh#thouse pit stop from RBR.

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Seb must face a lot of changes since last year: no more car on rails, no more automatic poles, no more "cars in front are all backmarkers", lots of questions from journalists "are you now a total failure?" (not like that, but certainly will sound like that to him). It may last just this two races and things go back to where it were last year for all we know, but for now, let's forget about the future.

It's a different scenario, and he has to learn to cope with it. His damage limitation at Melbourne was a clear "do", and the Cucumber gate was a clear "don't".

I don't think he is ordinary. He is being inmature, and that is a phase any other overhyped driver has undergone at some moment or another (Alonso, Lewis, Jenson anyone?). I still give him credit. This is the moment to prove himself. This race was not his finest hour, but we can consider it just a bad day at the office. Jenson had it too. As long as these are isolated cases, it is understandable (how many times have we seen JB doing a mistake like that?). The problem is when they become regular occurrences.

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I think Cris didn't mean ordinary as in "he's a crap driver". He's an ordinary very good racing driver but we might see no domination, no 2011 Vettel ever again. Sure we'll see great races where he shows his class, he might win another WDC or two but those saying he's the new Senna will have a great oportunity to back their arguments when/if he is in an ordinary car.

Edited by AleHop

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[Alonso is better than Denise Richards sticking her tongue in your ear mode on]

Allow me to disagree. If something came out ffrom the past races is HOW MUCH of a difference a driver makes. It is not just about points, but about potential points or position by the car itself and by the car/driver combination. The 2012 Ferrari seems to be on par with last year's Force India, being very optimistic perhaps on par with last year's Merc, only a lot worse. No stability, 12km/h slower than most cars on straigths, not gentle on the tires...and those are characteristics that affect both drivers.

Alonso is currently 1st in the championship. yes, yes, you will say these were just two races, and he was lucky because blah blah blah. He also got lucky in 2010 when with the 3rd fastest car he almost got a WDC because blah blah blah, and in 2011 he got lucky because blah blah blah...and the crashgate, and santander, and the Secret Powers that be, and so on. In synthesis, you will have to do a lot of "he got lucky" explanations to do to explain how a guy that hasn't got a half decent ride in ages has always been up there or whereabouts.

Let's do this. Let's imagine Alonso last year in an FI and any other driver in last years Ferrai. Do you think the car would have make those guys contendes in the way Alonso was? Let's switch Perez and Alonso's rides in Malaysia. Do you think Perez would have put the Ferrari up there? Do you think Alonso would have not won it by a mile?

Schumi looks ordinary in the Merc. Alonso would kill to have a car like that. You can count out Ferrari as a serious contender or not, but can you count out Alonso as easily?

If Ferrari brings a decent car (and I doubt so) it will be because Alonso keeps saving their asses long enough to keep them trying.

In that sense, very few srivers can accomplish that, despite their cars. How many podiums Other drivers got in better cars than a Renault 2009? Alonso snatched one.

Alonso didn't make just Massa look bad. If drivers are not much of a difference then the whole field looks bad compared to him, because so far, only t he guys with the absolutely best cars in the absolutely best conditions seems to more or less consistently make podiums and, sometimes, win.

Under that light, Vettel still needs to improve a good deal, but is in the right path. Lewis has it, but should stop trying to lose it. Button appears to have it slowly growing. Schumi? I think he had it, but I am starting to have my doubts.

Would like to add somebody else so as not to sound like much of a fanboy...but I can't honestly think of anybody in this era.

[/Alonso is better than Denise Richards sticking her tongue in your ear mode off]

Thanks for saving me some time. I was going to reply to Erica with a similar post, although probably less Alonso-centric, you big fanboy :) Then again, he is the clearest example of how a driver can make a difference. In Alonso's case, it is a big difference to other drivers because he is the best of them, in other cases it will be smaller, but there is always a difference to be made.

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Vettel just needs to keep his nose pointing in the right direction, and not in the cucumber patch. Accept race incidents happen and move on. He's still young and has not yet matured in that sense. He could learn a lot from Button and Kimi (whom I wonder if you could ever wind him up).

... Wound-Up Kimi :)

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On the actual question: For one thing I'd say it's a little early to say. Another is that Vettel did a very good job in Australia to make 2nd, I think it was the best result he could have done, realistically (or let's say, even Alonso couldn't have won that one :P). Malaysia? It was a silly mistake, but nevertheless one that every driver has made at one time or another, and most likely an isolated incident rather than something which will be a common thing, but we'll see about that. Remember he did have to pass a lot of back-markers plenty of times last year and never made that mistake, so let's not get too carried away here.

And again, like Ale pointed to, it really depends what you mean by ordinary. This year was always likely to seem "ordinary" in a sense as a year like 2011 is very rare. On balance, I'd say his driving was strong in Aus, and a mistake in Malaysia doesn't tell us much. It also depends on what exactly are you comparing him to, and how you perceived his driving last year. If you thought last year he drove like Fangio or Senna then you are always likely to be disappointed when you see him in a less than brilliant car, because Senna or Fangio he is not. If you perceived his driving last year as "he's only winning because of the car" you are always likely to draw the conclusion that this year proves he's not particularly good, and that's equally unfair because, well, he is good! As usual, it's somewhere in between. The rest of the season will tell us much more about how good Vettel is.

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well, although some strong words he actually still looks unflustered and calm :lol:

Indeed, I think he was more confused there than wound up!

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He's likely to to have the season Jens had after the WDC and Hamilton had last year. He's had two great years and has improved and matured as a driver. He doesn't have quite the car he had though and he'll just have to suck it up. Lewis fought a bad car and his own demons last year and Seb is heading that way fast. He needs to chill, arrest the slide mentally and do what he can with what he's got. I do not believe Newey has an ace up his sleeve this time but the car will improve. I do expect Alonso to push hard behind the scenes for both Horner and Newey to head in the direction of Maranello if things don't change soon. A complete clear out must be high on his wish list. Pat Fry has made little impression since his arrival.

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