Grabthaw the Hammerslayer

Is It Me Or Is Vettel Looking Ordinary....?

300 posts in this topic

So I still have it very unclear whether NK is a cucumber or is Vettel? There are some other posibility: Bernie is a cucumber, Whiting is a cucumber, the FIA is the mother of all cucumbers...

In my opinio, talking about title contenders, Vettel and Button had their share of cucumber in Malaysia. Others will have theirs in the coming races.

You cucumbers! :P

Hey, are you saying I'm a d#ck, cause I think Vettel actually reffered to the shape of it... :lol:

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I did wonder what Seb was wittering ion about until I saw the HRT prototype

.

..

post-2775-027338800 1332863365_thumb.jpg

Edited by DPR

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http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/view/411916/Di_Resta_Hulkenberg_back_Karthikeyan_against_Vettels_remark/

Brad, my friend, few people is standing by Seb on this one...

In any case, IMHO, the guys at fault were mostly the stewards. Seb could be a d#ck as much as he want to, no big deal, but authorities cannot. They punished NK just because Seb throwed a tantrum. Consistency nor fairness played any part in their decision. Fairness would have meant that Nk should have not been punished. Consistency (at being unfair) would have meant the same punishment for Jenson. They chose neither. They sucked.

Bunch of cucumbers!

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What a cucumber of a penalty is thar for an HRT? +20 seconds on his final race time?

No doubt the penalisers are a bunch of cucumbers!!!

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I think this Vettel talk has snowballed a little bit. He makes one angry comment after a race (something which almost every driver has done) and all of a sudden he's spoilt, out of his comfort zone, getting a reality check, needs to grow up etc. Come on, get real, it was one comment. He's human. It's the same with Red Bull, they don't win a race yet so they are panicking? I'm not convinced.

I like drivers who speak honestly, are good leaders within their teams, recognize how fortunate they are, and are involved in something honorable away from the track, maybe have a nice family, too...or they had to fight really hard to get here...or they're Americans racing in Europe...

...but I much prefer drivers to be who they are, rather than fake it. Vettel shows way too many situational personalities. He acts like a big tough guy but we know he isn't. He acts like a happy-go-lucky kid, but now he wants you to respect him. He cries and cries and cries in Japan, then he wants you to think he's so appreciative of everything, win or lose. I just don't think he's very believable and, humor wise, I don't find him very funny. :P

Still, I'm glad he does it all. I don't like him for it, but I'm glad he does it. It's fun to fault him for the same things people probably fault me for. ;)

Is it me or has your flaming got worse since you became a mod? :lol: I think Vettel is a genuine, straightforward kind of guy who seems comfortable in his own skin. It's the same for most of them, except Lewis who I'm still not sure is there yet (I think he's a good guy but tries to hard to be something he isn't, or to please everyone).

On the incident between him and NK it is certainly the stewards who are most at fault. For one, NK getting a penalty is likely to reinforce Seb's view, whereas if he hadn't then maybe after the buzz of the race died down and Seb reflected on it in private he might have thought 'actually, maybe I was not right there'. Now that might never happen; I resent the stewards for preventing Vettel to grow as a person :P

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[quote name='Volatilis' timestamp='1332851528' post='343063']
Feel free to tell me about his brilliant drives in his Toro Rosso, I am always open to having my mind changed :D
[/quote]

Ooh...let's see:

P4 China '07
P5 Monaco '08
Pole and victory - Italy '08
P5 Spa '08
P5 Singapore '08
P4 Brazil '08

Enough for you?

[quote name='Massa' timestamp='1332860938' post='343071']
I like drivers who speak honestly, are good leaders within their teams, recognize how fortunate they are, and are involved in something honorable away from the track, maybe have a nice family, too...or they had to fight really hard to get here...or they're Americans racing in Europe...

...but I much prefer drivers to be who they are, rather than fake it. Vettel shows way too many situational personalities. He acts like a big tough guy but we know he isn't. He acts like a happy-go-lucky kid, but now he wants you to respect him. He cries and cries and cries in Japan, then he wants you to think he's so appreciative of everything, win or lose. I just don't think he's very believable and, humor wise, I don't find him very funny. :P

Still, I'm glad he does it all. I don't like him for it, but I'm glad he does it. It's fun to fault him for the same things people probably fault me for. ;)
[/quote]

It's a funny game F1. Drivers get criticised for everything and every area of their life is over-analysed.

If they do one thing they'll get praise from one side, whilst the other will criticise them. I guess it is hard to be yourself in Formula One as it seems to be a constant lose-lose situation. If you're funny and a personality in front of the cameras or whatever, then you're a show off or an idiot. If you're quiet, your motivation is called into question. If you show any emotion from being happy, you're over confident and arrogant, if you you're sad about something that happened, you are a spoilt brat who has had everything handed to him all through his career and a cry baby, etc, etc, etc.

Still, it's F1. It has always happened...

Edit:

[quote] I think this Vettel talk has snowballed a little bit. He makes one angry comment after a race (something which almost every driver has done) and all of a sudden he's spoilt, out of his comfort zone, getting a reality check, needs to grow up etc. Come on, get real, it was one comment. He's human. It's the same with Red Bull, they don't win a race yet so they are panicking? I'm not convinced. [/quote]

Well said, two races in and as I said on the first page, all hell breaks loose.

[img]http://wtf1.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Narain.jpg[/img] Edited by JHS18

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It's a cucumber for Vettel that there's no F1 race soon. There's nothing really interesting to talk about for non Alonso fans. :P

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It's a funny game F1. Drivers get criticised for everything and every area of their life is over-analysed.

If they do one thing they'll get praise from one side, whilst the other will criticise them. I guess it is hard to be yourself in Formula One as it seems to be a constant lose-lose situation. If you're funny and a personality in front of the cameras or whatever, then you're a show off or an idiot. If you're quiet, your motivation is called into question. If you show any emotion from being happy, you're over confident and arrogant, if you you're sad about something that happened, you are a spoilt brat who has had everything handed to him all through his career and a cry baby, etc, etc, etc.

Still, it's F1. It has always happened...

I'm not sure Eric's comments were that serious, or at least I hope not :P But it's not just F1, it's being famous generally. I would have thought that seeing a driver show various emotions (happy when winning, annoyed when losing, funny sometimes, annoyed others) would be strong evidence that they are genuine. After all, isn't everybody like that? Different in different situations? I've met very few people who don't show that kind of up and down in their lives. Being the same in your projected mood all the time is a sure sign that you are not being genuine, at least in a sense. If there's one criticism of Valentino Rossi I could make it would be that he always put on a happy face even when he just took a horrible loss to a rival, when it was obvious there was no way he could possibly be happy about it, so in a way it was not a genuine reaction.*

*Obviously I'm not making that criticism because that was just Rossi's psychological warfare and everybody has a different way of dealing with losing, and that was just his way of losing without being beaten.

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What keeps us all confused is the continuous assumptions that prefering something is the same as think that's the best thing. In Spanish we say "Lo mejor es enemigo the lo bueno" ("The best is good's worst enemy").

We prefer drivers that speak their minds. But that's merely when compared to those that do not. That says nothing about whether we llike what they actually say. If George thinks I'm an idiot I'd rather have him say it than not. That does not automatically mean that I would like that! (No, George, don't even think about it...)

So, there's a false dicotomy there.

Edited by Quiet One

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Ooh...let's see:

P4 China '07

P5 Monaco '08

Pole and victory - Italy '08

P5 Spa '08

P5 Singapore '08

P4 Brazil '08

Enough for you?

It's a funny game F1. Drivers get criticised for everything and every area of their life is over-analysed.

If they do one thing they'll get praise from one side, whilst the other will criticise them. I guess it is hard to be yourself in Formula One as it seems to be a constant lose-lose situation. If you're funny and a personality in front of the cameras or whatever, then you're a show off or an idiot. If you're quiet, your motivation is called into question. If you show any emotion from being happy, you're over confident and arrogant, if you you're sad about something that happened, you are a spoilt brat who has had everything handed to him all through his career and a cry baby, etc, etc, etc.

Still, it's F1. It has always happened...

Edit:

Well said, two races in and as I said on the first page, all hell breaks loose.

Narain.jpg

Erm, that tells me nothing about his brilliance at all tbh. In fact P4/P5 kind of fits in with my belief of his medicore talent....

Perhaps you could explain why he was brilliant in those races? I'm not expecting any objectivity though from what I have read of your postings so far :)

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I'm not sure Eric's comments were that serious, or at least I hope not :P But it's not just F1, it's being famous generally. I would have thought that seeing a driver show various emotions (happy when winning, annoyed when losing, funny sometimes, annoyed others) would be strong evidence that they are genuine. After all, isn't everybody like that? Different in different situations? I've met very few people who don't show that kind of up and down in their lives. Being the same in your projected mood all the time is a sure sign that you are not being genuine, at least in a sense. If there's one criticism of Valentino Rossi I could make it would be that he always put on a happy face even when he just took a horrible loss to a rival, when it was obvious there was no way he could possibly be happy about it, so in a way it was not a genuine reaction.*

*Obviously I'm not making that criticism because that was just Rossi's psychological warfare and everybody has a different way of dealing with losing, and that was just his way of losing without being beaten.

Yes, I'll agree with that. Most if not all drivers have said something in the heat of the moment after a race when things have not gone their way. Using logic in here, that surely must mean they are ALL spoilt brats who need a reality check blah blah. But I'm sure after I'll post this, no doubt some people will disagree with that... ;)

Are they childish or spoilt for speaking their mind? I don't think so. Okay, maybe they are a bit foolish at times when maybe they haven't looked back on an incident before they have started talking, but it is to be expected. They are all highly competitive and driven people who want to win, and it is no surprise drivers come across like that when they don't win. Maybe that does, by definition, make them all spoilt - but if that's the case, have some consistency in your logic and say that's the case rather than singling out one driver after a bad race.

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Yep.

I don't want Vettel to stop talking. I'm glad he's talking.

But I am not going to respect or support him for talking if I don't like what he's saying or how he's saying it or what he's responding to. That's not saying "F1 drivers shouldn't say anything," that's saying "I don't agree." I know I'm hard to please, but it's possible that sometimes I just exaggerate my own opinions to make fun of myself. It's no fun if we're all fair about everything; to me, it's a sport, Vettel's an entertainer, they're all characters, what I say means nothing to me as much as it's fun to be a sports fan and not a professional sports analyst. ;)

The point does stand: I'm not perceiving him as a spoiled brat or whatever you think I think he is because he spoke out. I'm going on what he's actually said, not that he said it.

And Hülkenberg and di Resta, those poor guys dealing with stupid questions about this...if I were a driver, and I were asked about a situation involving two other guys, I'd just be an outright d*** to the media. How are they even supposed to answer that about their co-workers doing things they weren't part of? You may as well ask them for medical advice...oh, wait, we already have a doctor among the media, working for the BBC... :P

To everything else I have yet to address, I simply reply: :lol:

EDIT: They really all are spoiled brats. If they aren't gushing gratitude out of every orifice in every interview, they aren't appreciative of how much they're getting paid to do something that contributes so very little. :P

But if they are gushing gratitude, they're insincere.

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Erm, that tells me nothing about his brilliance at all tbh. In fact P4/P5 kind of fits in with my belief of his medicore talent....

Perhaps you could explain why he was brilliant in those races? I'm not expecting any objectivity though from what I have read of your postings so far :)

You must be new to F1?

I'm not giving a running commentary on each of those races, but anyone with a bit of sense will be able to tell they were stand out performances in a Toro Rosso - performances that at the time, not even Red Bull could regularly match.

And well done on glossing over his pole and victory at Monza '08. I'm sure in your mind that is so, so easy that a monkey could have won that race. :rolleyes:

Edited by JHS18

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Interesting, that. Then when they speak their minds and we hate it we move on to a driver who speaks his mind more nicely :lol:

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It's only been two races, we still have another 18 to go to see if he is ordinary or not!

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You must be new to F1?

I'm not giving a running commentary on each of those races, but anyone with a bit of sense will be able to tell they were stand out performances in a Toro Rosso - performances that at the time, not even Red Bull could regularly match.

And well done on glossing over his pole and victory at Monza '08. I'm sure in your mind that is so, so easy that a monkey could have won that race. :rolleyes:

So you can't explain his brilliance. Fair enough.

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Toro Rosso 2008:

Sébastien Bourdais would have had a podium at Spa that year. The STR wasn't a good car, but it certainly wasn't an HRT; it had particular tracks that it was a really good car on. They were beating Red Bull, yes, but that just assumes that Red Bull have to be a better team than STR and therefore Vettel elevated them, which doesn't have to be the case.

Like I said, the 2008 Interlagos race was Vettel's best drive I've ever seen. He was much better than his teammate. He earned a promotion to Red Bull. He won two titles there.

His average start was 11.0. Bourdais' was 13.8. Finishes? 11.6 and 14.2. To finish fourth or fifth is much better than the car's average. However, in the six races Bourdais qualified within the top ten, Vettel, too, was in the top ten. This tells me there were tracks where the Toro Rosso package was a lot better than it was getting credit for, and Vettel was being given credit for that. That doesn't discount the fact he was finishing well when Bourdais didn't, of course, and that's why we know he's a good driver.

With retirements, Vettel was -10 (differential between where he started and where he finished over the entire season). Bourdais was a -8. Take out non-crash retirements (ironic in that Bourdais' 7th at Melbourne from 17th no longer counts :P): Vettel +6. Bourdais was a -15. So this says Vettel's a good driver and Bourdais isn't, which I bet you didn't already know. It also says that Vettel had better race pace in a car that, compared to his teammate, seemingly didn't have as good of race pace.

Honestly, I'm just throwing out numbers for the sake of hearing myself type. I have no idea, but I think it says that it's fair to say Vettel's 2008 year was really, really impressive if you go by numbers, and maybe watching it, you either see more of that or see the opposite. Vettel's a champion, now let's see him really drive like one in a car that's not the best. He has eighteen races and it'll be exciting, I think, to see how he drives mad. ;)

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Anyway, I really like this Volatilis guy (or girl? Do women watch F1? Not like it matters; I still express my opinions even when I don't watch :P) coming in here and mixing it up with the old guard. Good stuff.

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Toro Rosso 2008:

Sébastien Bourdais would have had a podium at Spa that year. The STR wasn't a good car, but it certainly wasn't an HRT; it had particular tracks that it was a really good car on. They were beating Red Bull, yes, but that just assumes that Red Bull have to be a better team than STR and therefore Vettel elevated them, which doesn't have to be the case.

Like I said, the 2008 Interlagos race was Vettel's best drive I've ever seen. He was much better than his teammate. He earned a promotion to Red Bull. He won two titles there.

His average start was 11.0. Bourdais' was 13.8. Finishes? 11.6 and 14.2. To finish fourth or fifth is much better than the car's average. However, in the six races Bourdais qualified within the top ten, Vettel, too, was in the top ten. This tells me there were tracks where the Toro Rosso package was a lot better than it was getting credit for, and Vettel was being given credit for that. That doesn't discount the fact he was finishing well when Bourdais didn't, of course, and that's why we know he's a good driver.

With retirements, Vettel was -10 (differential between where he started and where he finished over the entire season). Bourdais was a -8. Take out non-crash retirements (ironic in that Bourdais' 7th at Melbourne from 17th no longer counts :P): Vettel +6. Bourdais was a -15. So this says Vettel's a good driver and Bourdais isn't, which I bet you didn't already know. It also says that Vettel had better race pace in a car that, compared to his teammate, seemingly didn't have as good of race pace.

Honestly, I'm just throwing out numbers for the sake of hearing myself type. I have no idea, but I think it says that it's fair to say Vettel's 2008 year was really, really impressive if you go by numbers, and maybe watching it, you either see more of that or see the opposite. Vettel's a champion, now let's see him really drive like one in a car that's not the best. He has eighteen races and it'll be exciting, I think, to see how he drives mad. ;)

That was a really interesting read and certainly gives me a more indepth persective of the mathmatics behind his 2008 season. The car was good at certain tracks and not so at others, he got more out of it than his team mate, which as you say, isn't really saying much.

@ Monza when finger boy qualied 1st and Bourdais 4th, what happened to Bourdais that he finished 18th?

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So you can't explain his brilliance. Fair enough.

Not that I'm not willing or able to. It's obvious from what you've said already you've already made up your mind about him, no matter what stats or information I put. Why bother if it is simply going to fall on deaf ears? Complete waste of my time typing it and yours reading it. :P

@ Monza when finger boy qualied 1st and Bourdais 4th, what happened to Bourdais that he finished 18th?

Stalled on the grid.

Edited by JHS18

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It's obvious I have made my mind up about him by asking you to convince me otherwise? Interesting logic that....

Anyway, someone not so personally invested in finger boy at least made an effort to lay out some basic facts for me, which was appreciated. Did not change my mind about his ability overall but did make me think he did better in 2008 than I had realised, from a statistical point of view at least. The real measure will come this year and he is not off to a good start with his attitude and it's exactly how I expected him to react when placed in the situation he is in. I have watched F1 for many years, regardless of what you infer and more to the point, I don't actually need to have watched much of F1 to understand people and if they have/don't have champion qualitites. :)

Like I have said before, I don't have to like a driver to respect them, but to respect them I have to be able to see some measurable skill or ability with a realistic context. This is why the explanation given for 2008 I can take on board.

As for Bourdais stalling on the grid. Clearly that was down to Helmut Marko. :P

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It's obvious I have made my mind up about him by asking you to convince me otherwise? Interesting logic that....

Err, no...

Read what I put again.

It's obvious from what you've said already you've already made up your mind about him, no matter what stats or information I put.

And by that, I mean this:

So basically for me he has always seemed ordinary and nothing special and not deserving of either of the WDC titles he has
Without the best car he won't be making it a third WDC anytime soon, if ever again.

Seems to me you've decided what you think already, no matter what statistics about qualifying/race averages are posted, as you admit yourself, so... :banana-wave:

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