Grabthaw the Hammerslayer

Is It Me Or Is Vettel Looking Ordinary....?

300 posts in this topic

It's obvious I have made my mind up about him by asking you to convince me otherwise? Interesting logic that....

Anyway, someone not so personally invested in finger boy at least made an effort to lay out some basic facts for me, which was appreciated. Did not change my mind about his ability overall but did make me think he did better in 2008 than I had realised, from a statistical point of view at least. The real measure will come this year and he is not off to a good start with his attitude and it's exactly how I expected him to react when placed in the situation he is in. I have watched F1 for many years, regardless of what you infer and more to the point, I don't actually need to have watched much of F1 to understand people and if they have/don't have champion qualitites. :)

Like I have said before, I don't have to like a driver to respect them, but to respect them I have to be able to see some measurable skill or ability with a realistic context. This is why the explanation given for 2008 I can take on board.

As for Bourdais stalling on the grid. Clearly that was down to Helmut Marko. :P

Let us all remember the Vettel of the past, which was actually quite likeable, and sympathise with his hard life of achieving too much too young. After all, the same happened to Hamilton, so I'm led to believe that you "can't simply not become an idiot" after that much success. So I guess it's better to try and ignore his horrible attitude and just wait and see if he can improve it after struggling for a bit. And obviously the battles on track should prove interesting :)

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@JSH18

I'm not sure what your first language is, but I will leave you to your own devices as that last post made no sense at all. I am not sure you can follow a narrative, therefore it would be nigh on impossible to have any sort of debate with you.

I have asked you a few times to explain his brilliance and you keep giving excuses why you won't or can't. Having a defence of 'but you won't listen' is foolish, as it's pretty clear I would as I did to the other poster. Perhaps you should stop projecting your closed mind onto others?

I came to the forum to have fun, chat, make new friends and not take things personally if somone dislikes or makes fun of my drivers/teams/spelling.

Edited by Volatilis

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What keeps us all confused is the continuous assumptions that prefering something is the same as think that's the best thing. In Spanish we say "Lo mejor es enemigo the lo bueno" ("The best is good's worst enemy").

We prefer drivers that speak their minds. But that's merely when compared to those that do not. That says nothing about whether we llike what they actually say. If George thinks I'm an idiot I'd rather have him say it than not. That does not automatically mean that I would like that! (No, George, don't even think about it...)

So, there's a false dicotomy there.

Oh, of course that's true (the part about whether we like what they say, not me thinking you're an idiot)! I think it's fair enough to say "I don't like Vettel because of his personality, the things he says, etc", as much as I wouldn't really understand that myself, that's somebody's judgement to make. What I don't think is fair to say is "I don't like him because he's fake", which is more of an objective judgement about the way he is and something which I don't really see (except in the sense that everybody is fake in that we have a private self and a public self). If you make that sort of claim I think you should back it up at least!

Also, I think it's great that they speak their mind, but that's exactly my point: Those who speak their mind you will usually find something to disagree with, that's perfectly fine. But to make an absolute judgement on somebody from a few extreme examples is probably not the right thing to do. Was Alonso not a racer and a sore loser when he shook his fist at Petrov at the end of 2010? Was he a spoilt brat who expected everything to be handed to him and for Petrov to move over? Nope, not even close, yet you might think so if you had the right kind of bias. When you try to make a logical judgement based on something which was emotionally motivated you are always likely to find a gap between what the original person meant and what you think they meant (which comes down to what you prefer they meant, because it will fit your view of them). So, of course Alonso is a racer, and of course he didn't expect Petrov to jump out of the way, he was just annoyed! Of course Vettel is not a brat, he was just annoyed too! And all of the time they were being genuine, and genuinely wrong, and that's fine.

Now, Vettel might prove to be unable to handle having a bad car this year, and his attitude may change as a result. But from just one example it's very early to say that, and you might notice the people saying it have always been somewhat critical of him, so again, bias is at play here. But even if his attitude did change? Why would that be such a terrible thing? It seems to me that it would be completely natural, if you were in a job and you had an amazing year followed by an incredibly poor one most people's attitude would change. Certainly most drivers from the past did go through that. I think sometimes we forget these guys are just normal human beings, they never made any claims about being perfect people who will handle everything amazingly well; the media and society might have made those claims for them, but they never did. And no, I am not saying I feel any sympathy for them, as after all they get paid millions to do a great thing, and in any case people's opinions of them don't change who they actually are.

Anyway, I'm always moved to defend whoever it is who comes under the scrutiny of the forum for a simple ill-judged comment (and in the past it's been Alonso, Hammy, and now Vettel), because everybody makes a stupid comment from time to time. Oh, and in a reverse of the usual, obviously most of this isn't aimed at you, except the Alonso reference :D

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Let us all remember the Vettel of the past, which was actually quite likeable, and sympathise with his hard life of achieving too much too young. After all, the same happened to Hamilton, so I'm led to believe that you "can't simply not become an idiot" after that much success. So I guess it's better to try and ignore his horrible attitude and just wait and see if he can improve it after struggling for a bit. And obviously the battles on track should prove interesting :)

It will be fascinating to watch how he copes with not having the fastest car this season. If he copes well, he will automatically go up in my estimation.

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I don't actually need to have watched much of F1 to understand people and if they have/don't have champion qualitites.

Yeah. As much as my post relied on numbers, and I really only did that because I don't like Vettel and it was more to explore than anything else. Nothing substitutes just watching a driver. We all want to value statistics more than feel, but at the end of the day, we could then ask why we value statistics, and we'd say "well I feel they're more objective." But wait, that's a feeling! We can't validate using statistics without statistics that validate their use! I wouldn't tell someone "oh, I think this is a great album because it sold this many copies and these tracks were number one hits." You just listen to it and like it or not. You can do the same with athletes. So far, I've watched Alonso, Hamilton, and Schumacher and, at points in their careers, decided they were the best. Vettel's come close, and admittedly would have to do more because I've been biased against him from before he even had a race seat, but... :P

I think it's perfectly fair to not be impressed by a champion, and I agree with wanting to see what he does this year. Can he rally the team behind him to close the gap to McLaren? Can he do what he did at Australia and steal points from at least one of the silver cars with any regularity?

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Anyway, I'm always moved to defend whoever it is who comes under the scrutiny of the forum for a simple ill-judged comment (and in the past it's been Alonso, Hammy, and now Vettel), because everybody makes a stupid comment from time to time.

Scrutiny? Not on my part. If he went and apologized to Karthikeyan and said it was totally his own fault and how he's let his team down and will work harder in the next race, I'd be telling you that he's a total pushover for not standing his ground. :P

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@JSH18

I'm not sure what your first language is, but I will leave you to your own devices as that last post made no sense at all. I am not sure you can follow a narrative, therefore it would be nigh on impossible to have any sort of debate with you.

I have asked you a few times to explain his brilliance and you keep giving excuses why you won't or can't. Having a defence of 'but you won't listen' is foolish, as it's pretty clear I would as I did to the other poster. Perhaps you should stop projecting your closed mind onto others?

I came to the forum to have fun, chat, make new friends and not take things personally if somone dislikes or makes fun of my drivers/teams/spelling.

:rofl:

Oh the irony.

I have made some points which you have failed to discuss - such as he drives at Toro Rosso. Again - nice of you to gloss over the fact he won at Italy in '08 in a Toro Rosso.

It's not my duty to give you a "narrative" of what happened lap by lap, season by season. There are plenty of other sources out there on the internet to help you with that. How about you just go and watch those races again?

I'm simply bringing up some races in response to your request to tell you some of his special Toro Rosso drives.

It's amusing on the back of the things you've said to tell me to open MY mind. I've admitted Vettel's not in any means the perfect driver - I can admit that in some races he's made a total mess of it. Crashing into his team mate, hitting Button at Spa in '10, yep, he made mistakes. But for you to say flat out he doesn't deserve his two titles...who isn't having the open mind? I just find it totally amusing that one fricking bad race and it's "oh he's got a sh*t attitude and he doesn't deserve his titles" - it is comedy gold really...

If you want to enjoy these forums, then I'd suggest for you to not make stupid remarks about what my native language is again.

Edited by JHS18

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Scrutiny? Not on my part. If he went and apologized to Karthikeyan and said it was totally his own fault and how he's let his team down and will work harder in the next race, I'd be telling you that he's a total pushover for not standing his ground. :P

Well, at least you admit that :P

turJa.png

Tough Guy Narain holding a

. Last guy I'd call a name.

Don't read too much into the fact it's pink, he was just holding onto it for Sutil.

*Takes glass to neck*

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Oh, of course that's true (the part about whether we like what they say, not me thinking you're an idiot)! I think it's fair enough to say "I don't like Vettel because of his personality, the things he says, etc", as much as I wouldn't really understand that myself, that's somebody's judgement to make. What I don't think is fair to say is "I don't like him because he's fake", which is more of an objective judgement about the way he is and something which I don't really see (except in the sense that everybody is fake in that we have a private self and a public self). If you make that sort of claim I think you should back it up at least!

Also, I think it's great that they speak their mind, but that's exactly my point: Those who speak their mind you will usually find something to disagree with, that's perfectly fine. But to make an absolute judgement on somebody from a few extreme examples is probably not the right thing to do. Was Alonso not a racer and a sore loser when he shook his fist at Petrov at the end of 2010? Was he a spoilt brat who expected everything to be handed to him and for Petrov to move over? Nope, not even close, yet you might think so if you had the right kind of bias. When you try to make a logical judgement based on something which was emotionally motivated you are always likely to find a gap between what the original person meant and what you think they meant (which comes down to what you prefer they meant, because it will fit your view of them). So, of course Alonso is a racer, and of course he didn't expect Petrov to jump out of the way, he was just annoyed! Of course Vettel is not a brat, he was just annoyed too! And all of the time they were being genuine, and genuinely wrong, and that's fine.

Now, Vettel might prove to be unable to handle having a bad car this year, and his attitude may change as a result. But from just one example it's very early to say that, and you might notice the people saying it have always been somewhat critical of him, so again, bias is at play here. But even if his attitude did change? Why would that be such a terrible thing? It seems to me that it would be completely natural, if you were in a job and you had an amazing year followed by an incredibly poor one most people's attitude would change. Certainly most drivers from the past did go through that. I think sometimes we forget these guys are just normal human beings, they never made any claims about being perfect people who will handle everything amazingly well; the media and society might have made those claims for them, but they never did. And no, I am not saying I feel any sympathy for them, as after all they get paid millions to do a great thing, and in any case people's opinions of them don't change who they actually are.

Anyway, I'm always moved to defend whoever it is who comes under the scrutiny of the forum for a simple ill-judged comment (and in the past it's been Alonso, Hammy, and now Vettel), because everybody makes a stupid comment from time to time. Oh, and in a reverse of the usual, obviously most of this isn't aimed at you, except the Alonso reference :D

My points, exactly. And I would've even used the Alonso fist waving to Petrov as an example, which was a capital offense at the time, but never before, or afterwards.

In short: acting as a d#ck once IS acting as a d#ck, but being a d#ck needs consistency, as much as Seb was not a WDC for winning at Monza in 2008, he is not a total d#ck for acting like one after Malaysia 2012. :D

Oh, and if I am allowed to speak my mind: you are an idiot and I only happen to agree with you almost always by mere chance. There. Admire me :D

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I'm sure in your mind that is so, so easy that a monkey could have won that race. :rolleyes:

A monkey? Hamilton said backmarkers were monkeys some time ago, now Vettel call them cucumbers. :eusa_think:

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A monkey? Hamilton said backmarkers were monkeys some time ago, now Vettel call them cucumbers. :eusa_think:

Apparently any monkey can win a title in Red Bull these days. :D

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Well if a cucumber can drive a Formula One car, then a monkey sure as hell can win one...logical extension really....

As for James stating races and places for Vettel in Toro Rosso overalls, and myself having a knowledge of the season and just where that Toro Rosso car compared with the others that year, and not to mention Vettels age and experience at that time, then I can say, that yes, Vettel drove really well. Eric then put it in numbers and proved that Massa is the new Bourdais, and Vettel then was the now Alonso.

Our new friend to the forums, and welcome to them, in my mind is a little unreceptive to the idea that Vettel is of any particular use other than perhaps going through the fruit and vegetable section at the grocery store and being able to discern the difference between a courgette and a cucumber, which leaves James quite rightly entitled to say "what's the point, your mind is made up".

If our new friend does want to be swayed in any manner, then I highly encourage him to watch the 2008 season, either on DVD or by time machine, I don't really care which. Either way you will learn more about the situation than you plainly don't now.

Until such time as that happens, there honestly is no point in saying anything, and you two should just agree to disagree, of which I am sure James will happily do.

After all, bald people from Argentina and Alonso are the true demons around here....

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...

After all, bald people from Argentina and Alonso are the true demons around here....

Bald People from Argentina ? ...

juan_manuel_fangio__1911-1995__483.jpg

Juan Manuel Fangio ?

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Maybe it shouldn't be considered a weakness but just natural that a driver drives well only with a certain type of car (oversteering/understeer/neutral/whatchamacallit). If each driver gets a car of his liking, comparisons / ratings will be much more vaild?

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I really couldn't give a monkeys what people assume about my opinion or indeed think of it. If you don't like it, frankly you can lump it. I thought the point of forums was to debate and discuss, essentitally so some form of understanding and growth on a subject should occur, but when fanboys and lunatics don't have a sense of humour, can't read between the lines or resort to threats because they don't like what they read, they are the losers!

Having a large post count, ganging up with your online buddies changes non of what I have stated. Deal with it.

:D

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I really couldn't give a monkeys what people assume about my opinion or indeed think of it. If you don't like it, frankly you can lump it. I thought the point of forums was to debate and discuss, essentitally so some form of understanding and growth on a subject should occur, but when fanboys and lunatics don't have a sense of humour, can't read between the lines or resort to threats because they don't like what they read, they are the losers!

Having a large post count, ganging up with your online buddies changes non of what I have stated. Deal with it.

:D

A lot of new members who bother to stick around seem to get a baptism of fire in one way or another, so it's nothing unusual and it's probably better to get straight into it :lol: I think you will fit right in here ;)

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Until such time as that happens, there honestly is no point in saying anything, and you two should just agree to disagree, of which I am sure James will happily do.

After all, bald people from Argentina and Alonso are the true demons around here....

Absolutely. Life is too short to have a flaming row over "my driver is better than yours" as I said earlier. F1 is a sport to be enjoyed rather than to argue over. Debate is good, but when personal remarks are made - that's where I draw the line.

Maybe others will disagree, but I wouldn't call myself a "fan boy" - I have plenty of drivers I like to see do well, and I'll criticise them if they have generally done something stupid. As I've said already, Vettel is by no means the perfect driver - however I do feel that from some don't give Vettel enough credit. I find it absurd people simply say it was the car that won the championship and not him - isn't it the case that over a season, you need the best of both? Certainly I can't imagine Sakon Yamamoto or Yuji Ide having won the past two titles, however good the Red Bull cars were. :P

To say flat out he doesn't deserve his two titles without even acknowledging any of his strong performances? Let's get real. You don't win two championships by being an idiot, or a cucumber...

Maybe on my part I was too harsh in what I wrote - so I'm sorry for that. I hope it doesn't put you off posting regularly here - and certainly no-one is ganging up with their "online buddies". This place has a strong sense of community as no doubt you'll soon find out if you choose to stick around.

Edited by JHS18

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To say flat out he doesn't deserve his two titles without even acknowledging any of his strong performances? Let's get real. You don't win two championships by being an idiot, or a cucumber...

... or a gherkin, which is what the media is now saying Vettel said ... Pity he didnt go all Captain Haddock and say "Sea-Gherkin" :)

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... or a gherkin, which is what the media is now saying Vettel said ... Pity he didnt go all Captain Haddock and say "Sea-Gherkin" :)

:lol: I loved Captain Haddock's insults (in Spanish).

So, gherkin is the politically correct way of calling somebody a cucumber? What about a cornichon?

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Absolutely. Life is too short to have a flaming row over "my driver is better than yours" as I said earlier. F1 is a sport to be enjoyed rather than to argue over. Debate is good, but when personal remarks are made - that's where I draw the line.

i am not arguing about which driver is better. topic question is vettel looking ordinary, my response was he has always looked ordinary to me. as for personal remarks, well hey, you started it...

i will quote for you...

"You must be new to F1? (why? because i don't agree with you, you infer my knowledge of the sport is inferior)

I'm not giving a running commentary on each of those races, but anyone with a bit of sense (i have no sense? i am senseless?) will be able to tell they were stand out performances in a Toro Rosso - performances that at the time, not even Red Bull could regularly match.

And well done on glossing over his pole and victory at Monza '08. I'm sure in your mind that is so, so easy that a monkey could have won that race. (again my judgement is inferior because i do not agree?) :rolleyes:"

Maybe others will disagree, but I wouldn't call myself a "fan boy" - I have plenty of drivers I like to see do well, and I'll criticise them if they have generally done something stupid. As I've said already, Vettel is by no means the perfect driver - however I do feel that from some don't give Vettel enough credit. I find it absurd people simply say it was the car that won the championship and not him - isn't it the case that over a season, you need the best of both? Certainly I can't imagine Sakon Yamamoto or Yuji Ide having won the past two titles, however good the Red Bull cars were. :P

Sorry to say, but you are a fan boy.

To say flat out he doesn't deserve his two titles without even acknowledging any of his strong performances? Let's get real. You don't win two championships by being an idiot, or a cucumber...

Having far and away the best car will win it for you though, not to mention preferential treatment from your team. Front wing, team orders anyone?

Maybe on my part I was too harsh in what I wrote - so I'm sorry for that. I hope it doesn't put you off posting regularly here - and certainly no-one is ganging up with their "online buddies". This place has a strong sense of community as no doubt you'll soon find out if you choose to stick around.

I intened to stick around thanks. Nothing you have wrote has even slightly put me off. I appreicate your apology though, glad you can see when you are wrong :P

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A lot of new members who bother to stick around seem to get a baptism of fire in one way or another, so it's nothing unusual and it's probably better to get straight into it :lol: I think you will fit right in here ;)

Burn baby burn! :D

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Ahh good to see everybody getting along. Things were a little bit too much anthagonistic (or whatever it is spelled) for my taste, but it is nice to see you have a thick skin!

Welcome aboard Volatilis. Hope you to stick around, now that we can all agree about cucumbers and move onto something else.

We are few, we are quirky, but we are also more fleshed out humans than most posters in other forums, so the good thing is that even the big differences in preferences between different members are backed by lengthy and more thoughtful replies than usual (as opposed the mere "You are pathetic" or such one liners usually found on the net)

That gives you at least the comfort of knowing that the guy that has just attacked you made the effort of thinking why is he calling you an idiot :lol:

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I'm flabbergasted that people would share and defend differing opinions on a discussion forum.

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Absolutely. Life is too short to have a flaming row over "my driver is better than yours" as I said earlier. F1 is a sport to be enjoyed rather than to argue over. Debate is good, but when personal remarks are made - that's where I draw the line.

Maybe others will disagree, but I wouldn't call myself a "fan boy" - I have plenty of drivers I like to see do well, and I'll criticise them if they have generally done something stupid. As I've said already, Vettel is by no means the perfect driver - however I do feel that from some don't give Vettel enough credit. I find it absurd people simply say it was the car that won the championship and not him - isn't it the case that over a season, you need the best of both? Certainly I can't imagine Sakon Yamamoto or Yuji Ide having won the past two titles, however good the Red Bull cars were. :P

To say flat out he doesn't deserve his two titles without even acknowledging any of his strong performances? Let's get real. You don't win two championships by being an idiot, or a cucumber...

Maybe on my part I was too harsh in what I wrote - so I'm sorry for that. I hope it doesn't put you off posting regularly here - and certainly no-one is ganging up with their "online buddies". This place has a strong sense of community as no doubt you'll soon find out if you choose to stick around.

Lovely stuff!

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