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HandyNZL

The Ak47 Crowd Dispersal Grand Prix Protest Of Bahrain

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Anyone who watches the race, and anyone who goes to the race, can't be opposed to the race happening, though. The choice to hold the race was the FIA's. The choice to have any involvement in the race belongs to each and every individual, individuals who choose to drive open-cockpit cars at 200 mph and individuals who go to São Paulo every year for the race. I know those situations are different, but the point is, you always have the right to weigh your own concerns and make your own choice and accept the consequences of every one of your actions.

I'm not going to debate it...most people here are going to say it's the wrong answer and the other answer's the right one; I'm going to say it's one answer and the other answer's an answer, too. I see it my way, you guys see it your way, and that's entirely fine.

But I still challenge everyone: watching the race is a show of support for the race being held, so I don't want to see any of the people saying "don't go" watching the race next week. Otherwise you are supporting the decision and should therefore say "why yes, I support this decision, I am going to enjoy a motor race next weekend." There is no "they shouldn't run this race, the FIA and Ecclestone and the teams are terrible selfish greedy fools, let me line their pockets on Sunday."

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Anyone who watches the race, and anyone who goes to the race, can't be opposed to the race happening, though. The choice to hold the race was the FIA's. The choice to have any involvement in the race belongs to each and every individual, individuals who choose to drive open-cockpit cars at 200 mph and individuals who go to São Paulo every year for the race. I know those situations are different, but the point is, you always have the right to weigh your own concerns and make your own choice and accept the consequences of every one of your actions.

I'm not going to debate it...most people here are going to say it's the wrong answer and the other answer's the right one; I'm going to say it's one answer and the other answer's an answer, too. I see it my way, you guys see it your way, and that's entirely fine.

But I still challenge everyone: watching the race is a show of support for the race being held, so I don't want to see any of the people saying "don't go" watching the race next week. Otherwise you are supporting the decision and should therefore say "why yes, I support this decision, I am going to enjoy a motor race next weekend." There is no "they shouldn't run this race, the FIA and Ecclestone and the teams are terrible selfish greedy fools, let me line their pockets on Sunday."

Nope. But I lack the skills to explain myself properly, sorry! :(

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What follows is just my whole train of thought on this Bahrain topic.

On culpability (for want of a better word):

I agree with Eric that the teams are just as "dirty" in this kind of thing as everyone else, if anyone is dirty at all (and I don't think you can say that anybody is just considering the money aspect, as the race did get cancelled last year). On the other hand, although the teams do have their role in communicating with the FIA in discussing whether the event happens, really it is the FIA's role to decide the safety of an event. The teams shouldn't have to boycott a race or anything like that, the governing body should always be in control of whether an event runs or not. That fact doesn't clean the teams' hands completely from a moral point of view (if you want to bring a moral argument), but it does to a point because from a practical POV it simply shouldn't be up to them to make a decision on whether an event runs; that's why you have a governing body.

On complex issues in general:

I agree that it is a complex, difficult decision and none of us here have a full understanding of all the facts and issues. So what? That doesn't mean you can't get some grasp of the situation even from a position of ignorance. We all do this on different things all of the time so why not do it here? You don't need to experience everything first hand before you can have any opinion on it. It's okay to discuss it as long as we accept that we can be wrong and we don't know it all, which I for one accept. But it's no good to say "I can't make any judgement whatsoever here, it's just all too complex for me, therefore I won't bother to think about it at all". That's at best lazy and at worst intellectually dishonest. Also, although situations like this are complicated and sensitive, it does not mean every decision is equally good or bad. In any case we are not the ones deciding so our low level of knowledge matches our low level of authority, anyhow :P

On what's actually happening there and the decision:

What we know: Human rights abuses are going on, certainly. Some level of protests is going on, but it's unclear how severe and on what scale (some say "my neighbourhood is oh so peaceful, I love Bahrain! *whispers* Is the King still behind me?", other people seem to have had the less peaceful experience of being shot). Protesters say they will attack/disrupt the race weekend. The race is considered a symbol of the State. Plenty of independent people/organisations said that F1 shouldn't go there. That must all be given some weight. Some others said they should go (and some of those were even credible and independent such as the Lotus team's inspection), so that has to be given weight too. Clearly, there's a debate to be had, and the hope is that the FIA looked at credible, independent sources here and came to a reasonable decision. The worry is that they didn't (certainly they cited some odd sources this year and last year), or they didn't consider the possibility of the situation escalating even further when F1 arrives there. Whatever the case, excuse me if I don't have a massive amount of faith in the FIA's ability to judge this, considering how close they are to Bahrain's leadership. I certainly don't rely on Bernie to judge it, either, for much the same reasons.

But, we'll ultimately only know when we go there what impact the race has. If the race comes under any difficulties then you would certainly be able to say "F1 was warned about going there". Would it surprise anybody to see someone invade the track or disrupt a team/a team member somehow during the weekend? It would not surprise me at all, and that is not something you can say about any other GP at the moment. Before anybody even bothers replying to that with the stock response: That is not to say it couldn't happen at another GP, you can get some lunatic or idiot anywhere, but nowhere other than Bahrain has the obvious threat of protests with a clear political agenda. That's the major difference between it and other GP's; other countries all have their political and human rights problems to one extent or another, but not where the State is so closely involved with F1 and such an obvious platform for attention and focus for disapproval. This isn't the moral argument I'm looking at: using that you could make a case against every race/country. This is the safety/smooth running of the event argument.

On Ecclestone's crappy defence:

Another point is those who say that even if F1 didn't go there, then protests would still happen and people would not all of a sudden have all the human rights they wanted, and in that case, we might as well go anyway (Ecclestone's line of argument). This misses the point, imo, and nobody opposed to the GP is saying that anyway! That argument just doesn't work, it effectively says "well bad things would still happen on some level even if we took a cautious, logical approach to this and didn't go, so let's just not bother with that and go anyway", ignoring all of the extra problems that F1 going there creates on top of the existing ones! The argument is not that "F1 is bad for Bahrain" it is that Bahrain is bad for F1, from a safety POV first and foremost, and then you can get into the moral, PR, whatever else you have. I'm not saying that line of reasoning ("oh it'll be bad no matter what") is why the FIA/Bernie/Teams are going, just pointing out it's irrelevance, as it doesn't actually support going to Bahrain or anywhere else you encountered this kind of problem.

On watching the race:

I'll be watching the race, if it happens. Does that mean I support the race happening? Well I suppose in a sense you can't avoid the fact that it does mean I support the race. But I wonder what "supporting the race" actually means? Does it mean that I support F1 in Bahrain? Well, I have no issue with F1 in Bahrain as a concept, why would I? Does it mean I support the FIA's decision to hold this particular GP? No, not necessarily, and this comes back to the "position of ignorance". It means that I accept the decision of the FIA/everyone else to have the race, knowing that they should in theory have more facts and apparently access to first hand accounts from the country, and hoping that they would have made a reasonable decision. I accept it in the same way I accept any other race from the FIA, whether I like the track or not, and hoping that the FIA has ensured the safety of everybody. I watch all of those races I don't like as much, yet I wouldn't say I supported them in the sense I wanted them to happen. Maybe it is more accurate to say, if we are talking from a financial perspective, that by watching Bahrain I'll be supporting the race and F1 as a series. Well, I don't see too much of an issue there. I like F1 so I'm happy to be counted as a viewer, and as for Bahrain I don't suppose it makes any difference whatsoever to them either way if people watch or not, as long as the show goes on.

What watching the race certainly doesn't mean: that you support human rights abuses or anything like that. Not even close. And now Bernie's argument actually becomes more useful: whether the race happens or not, those things will still happen. The point is, F1 is not encouraging human rights abuses or resulting in more abuse by being there, it is merely being used as a figure for a regime which wants to appear normal. More than that, going there although being potentially dangerous one way or another for F1, is probably better for the protesters if they are able to make some kind of hopefully non-violent impact on the race. Again, bad for F1, good for Bahrain whether it's the leaders or the protesters (and that just depends on who is better organised, equipped, whatever).

Final position:

I don't know. I'm not saying they shouldn't go. I think they could have cancelled it and nobody would have been too bothered except the Crown Prince, etc. If they go ahead, they leave themselves open to a lot of criticism and maybe much worse, so I hope they got it right.

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Thank you, George.

I didn't bother reading what you wrote (I usually just stop reading after your nick and the "Posted today xx:xx hs" notice) but I am quite sure that, I agree with every single word you say.

:D

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You are accusing me of wanting more races cancelled so Ferrari gets more time to develop their car? Pffft...bollocks! I'm not that shallow. I just oppose injustice.

BTW, I think Spain should be called off as well. Those guys oppressed us up until 19th century!

And Monaco as well...oh, those despicable Grimaldis!

And...ermmm...Canada! Yeah...don't even get me started about those murderous, barbaric Canadians :unsure:

From then on, the season can go on as planned.

Unless Alonso's car is still crap by then. But in that case, the only way to enjoy this season would be to imagine that Massa is actually Alonso and playing the whole season backwards...

Then they would only race when there's a GP in the North Pole. I mean if they wait till Alonso's car problems are sorted.

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You're missing the point in saying the protests will take place whether F1 races there or not. That is irrelevant in the FIA decision. They will protest because they want change in their countries governance. It has NOTHING to do with F1, and anyone saying otherwise is as thick as two short planks.

The point in not racing at Bahrain is the same point in sending someone to jail for doing something considered outside of a social norm. To take the race away from Bahrain is telling Bahrain that you are doing something that is not socially acceptable, and until such time as you come back into the norms that we as good global citizens expect, then don't expect to have any of the trappings that come with being a good global citizen.

By going there, F1 condones the actions of the ruling family. End of story. There is nothing else to be said.

Either you say "carry on, mate, we think you're doing wonders for your people", and race, or you say "look, we don't agree that what you are doing is right, and therefore we do not believe you should be allowed to hold such a prestigious global event such as a Formula One race".

Unfortunately the FIA has chosen the former, and in so by doing, have stated their acceptance of how the royal family treats their "subjects". Whatever the decision is behind that, doesn't matter. What they are saying by going there does.

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Then they would only race when there's a GP in the North Pole. I mean if they wait till Alonso's car problems are sorted.

I heard that they were trying to have all races from and including China cancelled so Alonso could claim his third championship..... :whistling:

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You're missing the point in saying the protests will take place whether F1 races there or not. That is irrelevant in the FIA decision. They will protest because they want change in their countries governance. It has NOTHING to do with F1, and anyone saying otherwise is as thick as two short planks.

The point in not racing at Bahrain is the same point in sending someone to jail for doing something considered outside of a social norm. To take the race away from Bahrain is telling Bahrain that you are doing something that is not socially acceptable, and until such time as you come back into the norms that we as good global citizens expect, then don't expect to have any of the trappings that come with being a good global citizen.

By going there, F1 condones the actions of the ruling family. End of story. There is nothing else to be said.

Either you say "carry on, mate, we think you're doing wonders for your people", and race, or you say "look, we don't agree that what you are doing is right, and therefore we do not believe you should be allowed to hold such a prestigious global event such as a Formula One race".

Unfortunately the FIA has chosen the former, and in so by doing, have stated their acceptance of how the royal family treats their "subjects". Whatever the decision is behind that, doesn't matter. What they are saying by going there does.

That's how things should be.

We're all happy with tomorrow's GP being held in one of the worst countries in the world about HR respect. F1 is a sport, a business, a bunch of millionaires... HR watchers? Never.

They shouldn't go to Bahrain because it's too unstable and things can get worse by going there but if they are right and they know what they're doing... The force be with them.

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Now you're bringing Vader and Skywalker into this mess????? :o

They might need them.

They = journalists, team members, etc.

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I don't want the Indian GP to be held, either. Democracy here is a joke; our politicians are basically tyrants.

I don't think you look threatening enough to make F1 cancel the Indian GP.

Have you trying growling and hissing?

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I don't want the Indian GP to be held, either. Democracy here is a joke; our politicians are basically tyrants.

It's not too different to Spain then.

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It's not too different to Spain then.

Do Spanish politicians throw people into jail for spreading cartoons about politicians on the net? Do they indulge in pogroms?

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Do Spanish politicians throw people into jail for spreading cartoons about politicians on the net? Do they indulge in pogroms?

They don't go that far but they go as far as they can.

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At the end of the day they are going and I suppose that is that.

I agree with Handy, whether the teams go or not there would still be the same issues.

We cannot confuse sports with politics, even if they are frequently intertwined for propaganda. No matter if some members here disagree that the race should go on, I'd bet that they will end up watching the race anyhow. That's the draw of sports in general to their fans. Agree or not with the circumstances, life, and by that extension, sport will go on. You either put up, do something to change things or find another way to spend your time.

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Nope, nope, and nope. ANd I can watch the Bahain F1 and be the number one anti Bahrain Ruling Family and still...nope. Geez.

1) If they go I will watch it, comment about it and maybe even get a boner over the Grid girls. That STILL won't be the same as F1 going there. Because mine are private acts (above all, what I do while watching the F1 girls) whereas F1's presence is the center of political acts from both sides of a country in political turmoil.

Bahrain's ruling family will hardly present me as proof of peace and love. If I don't watch it the opposition won't wear t shirts with my face. Is that so difficult to understand?

Grrr

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Nope, nope, and nope. ANd I can watch the Bahain F1 and be the number one anti Bahrain Ruling Family and still...nope. Geez.

1) If they go I will watch it, comment about it and maybe even get a boner over the Grid girls. That STILL won't be the same as F1 going there. Because mine are private acts (above all, what I do while watching the F1 girls) whereas F1's presence is the center of political acts from both sides of a country in political turmoil.

Bahrain's ruling family will hardly present me as proof of peace and love. If I don't watch it the opposition won't wear t shirts with my face. Is that so difficult to understand?

Grrr

:lol:

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Prediction:

Schumi will be on pole, lead from start to finish, and when he's executing his near-forgotten trademark jump, he will be shot dead by a protester outraged by the race.

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Prediction:

Schumi will be on pole, lead from start to finish, and when he's executing his near-forgotten trademark jump, he will be shot dead by a protester outraged by the race.

As much as I dislike Schumi, I sincerely hope not. I hope they do something Non-Violent, That way, the world sees their message, and nobody gets hurt ... at least until the cameras and journos are gone :mellow:

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The drivers and teams are all portraying themselves as very excited and eager to go racing. These guys are on a really short leash, aware of their security situation and confident in whatever provisions have been made, have better information about the circumstances than we're getting, and/or have only read the race thread and not this one. :P

Just hope they're all safe and everything, but at least those within F1 have been supporting their sanctioning body's choice. It's not so much that it's because it's a good choice, it's just nice to know that they don't feel the FIA or Bernie Ecclestone are compromising them whatsoever, and if they do, they aren't trying to make the situation worse by dissenting and causing more controversy. They're allowing F1 to look professional while the media is understandably critical of them and I think that's nice. There's a seeming unity; even if they don't agree with the decision, they are willing to acts as though they are and that shows a real level of respect for the FIA and Ecclestone, something interesting to me in that they would know their workings much greater than Internet forum posters would, and yet most of what is said about them online is very, very critical.

Now let's just hope everyone gets there and gets back safely, and that's not discounting a concern for the safety of those involved in the actual protests, it's just too messy for me to even comment there because I have no idea what would be happening if F1 hadn't gone or what even is happening now that F1 is going and what those on either side are really doing and what situations they are putting themselves in and everything. So I just respectfully hope for safety in general.

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... and that shows a real level of respect for the FIA and Ecclestone, ...

I'm not entirely sure it's respect as much as it has to do with the money that's potentially on the line (Both in terms of any "Penalties" or opportunistic point-grabbing in case other teams fail to show up) and / or incurring the wrath of "Mr. E". Case in point - Adam Parr : Obviously we dont have much to go on besides the fact that he didnt rate Ecclestone highly, was vocal about it, and made a Houdini-like vanishing act.

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