Best Team Wins ....or Not?

[Insider 0]

I know this is a little old hat but I believe the future of F1 hangs in the balance at this moment in time. I don't think I have felt as strongly about this fact as Ihave about anything in my life. I started this topic because I feel strongly that F1 has lost it's way somewhat in the search for excitement. Today McLaren shoulder the blame for Button poor performance in Canada: http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/view/419870/McLaren_shoulders_blame_for_Buttons_performance/ and Paul Hembery announces changes to tyres BUT for practice only, perhaps: http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/view/419890/Pirelli_to_test_new_hard_compound_tyre/. He is quoted as saying that he feels the newer tyre may help some teams achieve greater stability. He also says that it may be seen as unfair if they are used in races and one team suddenly achieves three wins on the trot. Er, that the idea isn't? The best team wins? You know, engineering-wise - not the one who solves the riddle of the boots. No other formula in the world has to put up with this comedic carnage over tyres. Can one man be allowed to ridicule drivers and engineers to the extent where their careers are at stake just so he can put another billion in his bank? Of course, the fans love it. They'd probably like it better if we had more crashes with the odd fatality thrown in. Is that what F1 is about? Sure, punters have always been bloodthirsty. Sadly, that is the human condition but Bernie is turning this sport, the elite formula, the pinnacle of motor sport and engineering into an automotive News Of The World and I hate him for it. He has destroyed the finest spectacle on Earth for pure greed. The teams must have talked to Pirelli or Bernie or both for this announcement to be made now after only 7 races. It's a farce out there and from my small point of view it needs to be reigned in.

[JHS18 0]

So exciting racing = farce just because your favourite driver isn't doing so well? Okay...

I am literally amazed how fans are NEVER happy. What do you want? Bridgestone back? Of course, the days of processional races where nobody could overtake and there was no chance for strategy? Err. No thanks.

Truth is that the very best rise to the top. Look at the standings. The top three are Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel - three of the very best F1 drivers on the grid right now. How is that chaos?

I believe with the sole exception of Malaysia, every winner has come from the front row of the grid. If Marussias and HRTs were suddenly in with a chance of victory, I'd agree with you, but I'm sorry, it is hardly "chaos" or a "farce" right now. Red Bull leads the WCC. McLaren is second. Ferrari is third....and that is suddenly chaos?

I love that we've had seven different winners from the first seven races. I love that we're seeing new faces with the likes of Grosjean and Perez and Maldonado suddenly being able to get onto the podium.

I think, honestly, and don't take this the wrong way - but the only fans who AREN'T happy are the fans of drivers who suddenly aren't doing so well.

[Massa 0]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Sean's points.

I also wouldn't be so quick to jump to his same conclusions.

I'm on the fence.

I'm not against making a change for 2013. I don't like mid-season changes because they ruin the integrity of the championship points scored prior to the change, for me at least.

But in 2013, if you said, we're going to make the tires more consistent, just a little, not going back to Bridgestone or anything, they can still degrade, but just more predictably, and get rid of DRS, I'm not complaining about that.

I'm also not out the door if they don't change because quite frankly, the other racing out there isn't any better.

[Insider 0]

So exciting racing = farce just because your favourite driver isn't doing so well? Okay...

Predictable response. You're missing the point.

I am literally amazed how fans are NEVER happy. What do you want? Bridgestone back? Of course, the days of processional races where nobody could overtake and there was no chance for strategy? Err. No thanks.

There was plenty of strategy when we had refuelling and before that too. If you make rules you can't have a one-man technical team policing it. Enforce them properly and make them unambiguous.

Truth is that the very best rise to the top. Look at the standings. The top three are Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel - three of the very best F1 drivers on the grid right now. How is that chaos?

For now. All three have a good chance of missing Q3 at the next race because of tyres.

I believe with the sole exception of Malaysia, every winner has come from the front row of the grid. If Marussias and HRTs were suddenly in with a chance of victory, I'd agree with you, but I'm sorry, it is hardly "chaos" or a "farce" right now. Red Bull leads the WCC. McLaren is second. Ferrari is third....and that is suddenly chaos?

Because no one team knows were they are - it's pure luck, everything could change tomorrow.

I love that we've had seven different winners from the first seven races. I love that we're seeing new faces with the likes of Grosjean and Perez and Maldonado suddenly being able to get onto the podium.

I have no argument with that but they haven't got a clue how they managed it. Was it through evolution of the car or were the clouds in the right place?

I think, honestly, and don't take this the wrong way - but the only fans who AREN'T happy are the fans of drivers who suddenly aren't doing so well.

Nope. I am a converted Hamilton fan and I have taken a shine to Grosjean too. I really do thing Bernie is destroying the very fabric of the sport I love and I'm mad about it.

[Insider 0]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Sean's points.

I also wouldn't be so quick to jump to his same conclusions.

I'm on the fence.

I'm not against making a change for 2013. I don't like mid-season changes because they ruin the integrity of the championship points scored prior to the change, for me at least.

But in 2013, if you said, we're going to make the tires more consistent, just a little, not going back to Bridgestone or anything, they can still degrade, but just more predictably, and get rid of DRS, I'm not complaining about that.

I'm also not out the door if they don't change because quite frankly, the other racing out there isn't any better.

I just want to see every team get a good chance at balancing their car so we can have a straight shoot out in the race. DRS is a work in progress and I'll wait on that. I'd like to see refuelling back because it makes pit stops a little more imperfect and keeps the strategists on their toes. For me, there is no other racing.

[Massa 0]

Ah, you said the magic word. I love refueling.

[Gilles V. 0]

Yes, the best teams are winning: last seasons' best teams are still the best teams. There is a new set of rules and the teams, with all their financial and human resources have to adapt to them as quickly as possible. This is F1. If the tyre issue is recognised by a majority if teams, rules will change next year and again some will adapt faster than others. And some fans will be unhappy with the new rules. This is F1.

Personnally, I can't remember a better season (I think I have to go back to the Villeneuve-Shumacher year).

[JHS18 0]

The tyres are the same as last year. It is inevitable that whenever there's new rules, some will adjust to it better than others. You could quite easily make the point that banning the exhaust blow diffusers has created "chaos", seeing as that was only brought about to effectively stop Red Bull from being so dominant.

You don't like the unpredictability? Why not? Formula One was VERY predictable for a time. Remember 2002, or 2004 where one team and one driver in particular dominated to the point thousands of fans were becoming bored? We had refuelling back then AND a tyre war but we had some breathtakingly predictable racing. Is that really what you want to go back to?

Formula One, and motorsport in general, is supposed to be unpredictable. It is supposed to be exciting. And now when it is again, people complain? There's no "lottery", no "chaos", no "farce" - again - the top three drivers in the championship are all champions. You make the point that any of them could fail to make Q3 - but isn't that the point? They could have failed to make Q3 before Pirellis if they crashed or made some error on their flying lap or just couldn't get the car working. That is the way it has been since 2006.

Also the only two drivers who have scored points in every race remain Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton. I think you need to look again at the definition of chaos is, quite frankly, because if this is chaos - I'd hate to see what your definition of "normal" is. Again, 2002 or 2004, maybe?

The way I see it is you're complaining that it is too exciting, or maybe I'm completely missing the plot. But maybe we should look at it from what Jenson Button says. I'm not sure if you saw the BBC highlights after the Canadian Grand Prix when he was asked what is causing his problems, and whether it was the tyres. Button flat out said that it WASN'T the tyres, and that it'd be "impossible" for one driver to struggle so much on them when everyone else can handle them fine.

[Massa 0]

Are the tires really the same as last year? I'm asking that sincerely, I assumed they changed.

I like unpredictability of results, and that's where I don't understand complaints, because I don't see the fun in a predictable outcome. Simultaneously, though, I don't actually think this is unpredictable because cars are winning from pole/second every weekend anyway.

I'll disagree that "racing is supposed to be unpredictable," though. It isn't supposed to be predictable OR unpredictable. It's just supposed to be a contest of cars and their drivers. Is it supposed to be exciting? We can agree there, but it's not supposed to be exciting for the reasons you think...it's supposed to be exciting because holy **** these cars are cool and these drivers are cool and those speeds are fast and those tracks are insane. it isn't supposed to have passing, OR not having passing, OR anything. That's just stuff that can happen and make it more exciting but it's not really something that should be encouraged by much beyond the desire to win in the theoretical world.

Conclusion: I am fine with everything as it is. I am fine with getting rid of DRS and bringing back refueling. I am fine with getting rid of DRS and having no refueling. I'm find with keeping DRS and bring back refueling. I'm fine with a slight adjustment to the tires. I am fine with saying we used to be too far on the side of purity, and now we're too far on the side of show, and need to find something between old-spec and new-spec. I am fine with saying we're too far on the side of show now, but not as far as NASCAR or Indy or plenty of others have gone so it's not a huge deal for me.

[HandyNZL 1]

Everyone's got the same tyres, therefore, they are all equal. How each individual car effects them mechanically is discernibly different and thus creates a fast or slow car. If you look at the last seven races, it has been the same likely suspects in the near enough same grid and finishing positions, therefore, I can only conclude, everyone is getting as much as they can from the tyres and their cars, and their positions are representative of the cars BEING VERY CLOSE IN PERFORMANCE which is a good thing, and something we have not had in F1 for many a year.

The races of old that Sean appears to be misty eyed over with tyre strategy and refuelling were races between pit crews - not the cars or drivers. How many times would we sit through Murray and Martin going on about who was going to get passed in the pits and who wasn't - it was never who was going to enact a pass on the outside at Eau Rouge. Notwithstanding Schumachers dominance making the winner predictable, but every position thereafter was also predictable after the first lap - the only changes in position coming about from a sticking wheel gun or fuel hose. That is not, and was not, racing.

There is nothing wrong with the tyres. Ferrari took a gamble, as did RBR to a lesser extent, this past weekend. And the gamble didn't pay off. That's called racing. Yes Hamilton used DRS to pass Alonso, however he would have taken him at any number of corners, and Vettel took him beautifully at the hairpin. McLaren called the tyre strategy spot on (yes we have tyre strategy!!!), and pulled Hamilton in at the right moment, and this gave him enough laps to close the difference (and they didn't know Ferrari and RBR were staying out at the time), enact a pass, and take the win.

I repeat that there is nothing wrong with the tyres, no-one's jobs are on the line because of the tyres, and F1 is, this year at least, in a very strong position as a spectacle to watch. Not even last season were the different strategies of the teams converging over the last ten to fifteen laps that enables them all to be fighting for a podium (green, black/red and milk/gold coloured cars notwithstanding).

[Massa 0]

Yeah, that's a pretty good post, Craig.

I can play either side of this one but if I really have to take one, I say keep the tires, ditch the DRS, see what happens.

And if I really have to take a side, my side is that nothing I say is going to change anything and whatever I say doesn't matter because if I'm watching that means I can't complain because I'm choosing to watch and can stop anytime I'd like.

[Quiet One 15]

+1 to James and Craig.

Let me know if HRT wins a race, then we can discuss this with some degree of seriousness. Everything else has been said and said again at the Lottery thread.

[Rainmaster 7]

Agree with Craig.

[AleHop 0]

The championship's exciting and I can't complain. Although I'm not the big fan of DRS or KERS and...

But there's something that, if TRUE, would be hard to put up with: the same compound having different performance under the very same circumstances.

I heard about that months ago but I didn't give credit to those rumours. These days more and more people are talking about it like fact.

If true I want my money back.

[Quiet One 15]

The championship's exciting and I can't complain. Although I'm not the big fan of DRS or KERS and...

But there's something that, if TRUE, would be hard to put up with: the same compound having different performance under the very same circumstances.

I heard about that months ago but I didn't give credit to those rumours. These days more and more people are talking about it like fact.

If true I want my money back.

That's something weird to be around as a rumour. To prove that, SOMEBODY must have tested the same tires under the exact same conditions. Not many are in place to perform such test. And if somebody could make that test (it can only be Pirelli themselves or some team), why do not say it openly? It is not something that might earn you some lawsuit over libel claims, because to make such a claim you must have certainly have at least some lab results or very strong telemetry data.

It will still be a minor point, unless you can also prove that the tire's different behaviour can be predicted and used to some teams advantage.

[AleHop 0]

It will still be a minor point, unless you can also prove that the tire's different behaviour can be predicted and used to some teams advantage.

I didn't want to go that far as to create a conspiracy theory out of nothing but it wouldn't be a minor point even if that behaviour is unpredictable. That would give full credit to those who claim this season is kind of a lottery. That would mean poor quality control by Pirelli, the other scenario would be simply criminal.

[Insider 0]

I believe every batch of tyres is different from race to race. No tyre, however bespoke can be consistent. The difference may be microscopic from team to team. Drivers have ofthen picked up a bad set from time to time in the past. JB was talking about the durability of his tyres compared to everyone else. His car is eating them. He didn't endorse them, he just felt the problems lay elsewhere. Last word from me: Pirelli wouldn't be considering a more stable compound if every team was happy with the current product.

[yurp 0]

+1 for all the sensible posts

[The Shadow 0]

Tyres have thankless jobs. When they work they are never noticed, when they have problems, profane expressions are attributed to them.

But, seriously. I dont think Pirelli's quality control is that bad, which leads me to this conclusion. The best teams are currently at the top, despite the seemingly random races we have been having. This means that although they may not have won so many races, they are operating the tyres in a range that is quite optimised, even if some midfielder teams may have had a car more suited to the tyre and track condition of the day.

Given that the performance of the teams seem so close this would either mean that

a. All teams are able to optimise the tyres to a high degree that (in a super soft compound) small changes in temperature and mass (less mass due to tyre wear = less heat retention) can create a dramatic drop off due to the acute optimisation

b. All teams are equally incompotent, thats why the race seems like a lottery

Somehow I don't think its option b

[dribbler 6]

I think James in particular has written some of his finest ever posts in this thread.

Sean, I haven't been up close and personal to some of the guys in F1 as you have been. I think this must have a bearing on your feelings about all of this. For me, F1 is in fantastic shape due to the sheer quality of the racing and how the best are prevailing.

I want nor need anything more.

[Insider 0]

I think James in particular has written some of his finest ever posts in this thread.

Sean, I haven't been up close and personal to some of the guys in F1 as you have been. I think this must have a bearing on your feelings about all of this. For me, F1 is in fantastic shape due to the sheer quality of the racing and how the best are prevailing.

I want nor need anything more.

I am glad you are happy - really. Most TPs are under pressure to get their boffins to solve the mystery of the Pirellis. I believe there is no solution. What a lot of people don't realise is that the teams receive limited data from Pirelli and they get it at the last minute. There is no rubber in a modern tyre, just synthetic gunk that has a extremely narrow operating window. Pirelli's official 2012 press release: "The different compounds mean that the tyres are well suited to a wide variety of circuits, according to the type of asphalt, the number and severity of the corners, and the top speed on the straights. This allows the teams to make use of an ample range of strategies." This is highly misleading and patently not true. My point is, that if the tyres were exactly what they are meant to be - an innocuous accessory - then every team would have an equal chance. The midfield teams just don't have the budget to hire the best of the best engineering minds and the staff they do have are under enormously pressure to sort out problems that even Adrian Newey can't get his head around! That's unfair in my book. I am a bonded brother of the workforce that make this sport work. Fans don't care about people's jobs, I know that - but I do.

[Rainmaster 7]

I am glad you are happy - really. Most TPs are under pressure to get their boffins to solve the mystery of the Pirellis. I believe there is no solution. What a lot of people don't realise is that the teams receive limited data from Pirelli and they get it at the last minute. There is no rubber in a modern tyre, just synthetic gunk that has a extremely narrow operating window. Pirelli's official 2012 press release: "The different compounds mean that the tyres are well suited to a wide variety of circuits, according to the type of asphalt, the number and severity of the corners, and the top speed on the straights. This allows the teams to make use of an ample range of strategies." This is highly misleading and patently not true. My point is, that if the tyres were exactly what they are meant to be - an innocuous accessory - then every team would have an equal chance. The midfield teams just don't have the budget to hire the best of the best engineering minds and the staff they do have are under enormously pressure to sort out problems that even Adrian Newey can't get his head around! That's unfair in my book. I am a bonded brother of the workforce that make this sport work. Fans don't care about people's jobs, I know that - but I do.

Some would say the tyre situation was a lottery (which in this case would be the definition of everyone having an equal chance), while you say the opposite, but whether it's a lottery or not I think everyone does have an equal chance, in the sense the tyres are the same for everyone. In fact, more equal in relation to tyres than previous years where a tyre manufacturer would align itself to one team. If you are talking about it being unequal because some teams have less budget and less intelligent engineers, well then that's a much broader discussion that includes plenty of other things, and goes much further than tyres.

You talk about it being unfair on midfield teams, yet it would seem to me that the current situation with the tyres can only benefit the midfield teams. We have seen this already, look at Williams, Sauber and Renault/Lotus (who could all have won races by now but for strategy and driver mistakes). I will never understand how more people getting the chance to win/get better results, instead of one or two teams dominating, can be construed as unfair somehow. I'd be interested to hear that particular criticism (that the tyres create an unfair situation somehow) from the teams, who usually are quite vocal if their interests are being hurt one way or another. Forgive me if I have missed it.

As for the pressure element on engineers in mid-grid teams, well I don't see that it would be any worse than anywhere else on the grid, and since the tyres are apparently a mystery to every team, hardly something anybody is going to get fired for, be it engineers or team principals. It wouldn't make any sense, "I'm going to fire you and hire somebody else who also doesn't know what these tyres are doing, ha"!

[AleHop 0]

Probably the teams don't understand the new tires because of 1) the testing ban. 2) In the past Bridgestone was a well known product and changes from one season to another were rather small.

These days they can't test the new compounds again and again and 3) Pirelli is still working on the ingredients of their rubber to find a more stable and successful product.

[Insider 0]

Some would say the tyre situation was a lottery (which in this case would be the definition of everyone having an equal chance), while you say the opposite, but whether it's a lottery or not I think everyone does have an equal chance, in the sense the tyres are the same for everyone. In fact, more equal in relation to tyres than previous years where a tyre manufacturer would align itself to one team. If you are talking about it being unequal because some teams have less budget and less intelligent engineers, well then that's a much broader discussion that includes plenty of other things, and goes much further than tyres.

You talk about it being unfair on midfield teams, yet it would seem to me that the current situation with the tyres can only benefit the midfield teams. We have seen this already, look at Williams, Sauber and Renault/Lotus (who could all have won races by now but for strategy and driver mistakes). I will never understand how more people getting the chance to win/get better results, instead of one or two teams dominating, can be construed as unfair somehow. I'd be interested to hear that particular criticism (that the tyres create an unfair situation somehow) from the teams, who usually are quite vocal if their interests are being hurt one way or another. Forgive me if I have missed it.

As for the pressure element on engineers in mid-grid teams, well I don't see that it would be any worse than anywhere else on the grid, and since the tyres are apparently a mystery to every team, hardly something anybody is going to get fired for, be it engineers or team principals. It wouldn't make any sense, "I'm going to fire you and hire somebody else who also doesn't know what these tyres are doing, ha"!

We have seen 'midfield' teams at the front but the step they seem to take is purely temporary. That's why we've had seven different winners in as many races. Every TP or driver I have seen interviewed says the tyres are difficult to deal with. No one team is going to admit complete defeat. As to your last point, I've seen people 'moved on' for a lot less. Solution talks, guesswork walks in this game.

[Insider 0]

Probably the teams don't understand the new tires because of 1) the testing ban. 2) In the past Bridgestone was a well known product and changes from one season to another were rather small.

These days they can't test the new compounds again and again and 3) Pirelli is still working on the ingredients of their rubber to find a more stable and successful product.

So far, this season, practice mileage is down 50% as cars spend longer in garages with set-up tweaks.