The 2012 British Grand Prix

[F1 FANatic 1]

Also: I'm horrible with visuals. It took me maybe twelve years to figure out that this logo was an NJ and not just a stupid looking devil. So horrible, in fact, I couldn't figure out what part of the track was the "new" (for me) Arena Circuit and what wasn't. Consider that I've played the pre-Arena Silverstone course hundreds of times in rFactor and that's really a bad sign. Just never tell any girl I call beautiful how bad I am with picking up on things visually.

I have probuably done a couple thousand laps around Silverstone in all my racing games combined. All of them of the "old" layout. And very much so, I can;t tell the differance. The biggest problem is that all the camera angles are in horrible sports!

[Massa 0]

I think it speaks volumes that Bernie, who has criticised Silverstone for anything and everything in the past (not least for the BRDC not selling it to him, but that's another matter...) hasn't criticised them this weekend. To be fair it was a very difficult situation with all the rain they've had - the last time they faced something similar was in 2000, so it is a rare incident and not one that really characterises the circuit at all.

It is unfortunate that it happened - but telling people to not to up was the best for everyone's sake. But it was unavoidable. The fact that they've seemingly fixed the problem for tomorrow and the potential for a great race should hopefully go some way for making up what happened yesterday and today.

To me, it's Customer Service 101 that if someone is paying, you give them what they came in for. I realize the circumstances...but to say that heavy rain is an unforeseeable circumstance that a major sporting venue wouldn't be prepared for is, to me, ridiculous. You have to be prepared for something as predictable as rain, no excuses. I've gone to race tracks in pouring rain holding out false hope that they'd get it dry and go racing. Somehow, a (barely) two-lane road got 100,000+ people into a muddy field to go watch a track dry. Weather-related things, because we all know weather happens, those are the thing you have solutions for before they happen, not after, in my opinion, if you are to be a professional, prepared venue for major sporting events.

The British Grand Prix is a great event and I know it's the home race for a lot of people here and a lot of F1 fans in general, but not being prepared for weather is just not something I could ever justify for a big-time sports venue. Not that my opinion changes the fact all weren't welcome today.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on it, I guess. All that matters to me personally, as a TV viewer, is the race itself, so I'll say no more on this issue. Drop the flag (well I guess they use lights, you guys with your space age technology over in Europe ) and let's have a good, safe race.

[JHS18 0]

I have probuably done a couple thousand laps around Silverstone in all my racing games combined. All of them of the "old" layout. And very much so, I can;t tell the differance. The biggest problem is that all the camera angles are in horrible sports!

Really? It's pretty obvious where it is to me - but then I did sit at the new section last time I went in 2010.

[Rainmaster 7]

On the rain: it's not normal weather conditions we're having here, it's extreme, torrential rain. Lots and lots of rain. There have been floods. I can't even remember the last time it wasn't raining where I am; but I didn't have facial hair. I can't remember what a dry tree looks like. Etc. It's asking a lot of a race circuit, which is exposed to the elements, to be prepared for that (short of building a roof over the entire circuit). Most city councils aren't prepared. So I have some sympathy with Silverstone's position and plenty of sympathy for those paying non-attendees, too. Of course, you can almost always be better prepared (circuits and fans), but only to a point in this case.

On red flags: It's not a question of whether it's good for the fans to be standing around waiting, or a question of talent or even bravery. It's a question of "is the driver still driving his car" and "is skill still a factor in the laptime"? Today, it got to the point where it was a lottery rather than a test of skill. I'd rather they threw a red flag and we waited for a real contest for pole, which in the end the best driver on the grid got, and hardly in the easiest of conditions either, might I add. That's not to say they don't throw it early sometimes, but that wasn't the case today IMO. Attending the session gives you the advantage of...soaking up the atmosphere. And the disadvantage of standing around waiting if a red is thrown. So it has always been and shall forever remain

Anyway, I'm looking forward to tomorrow, could be a classic.

[Massa 0]

I hope for no red flags, only because the U.S. isn't getting live TV coverage, so if there were a red flag, it would really mess things up with how this race is broadcast here...so keep it green for me. Mr. Ecclestone should know I have a few thousand posts on an Internet forum and am therefore quite important.

[JHS18 0]

On red flags: It's not a question of whether it's good for the fans to be standing around waiting, or a question of talent or even bravery. It's a question of "is the driver still driving his car" and "is skill still a factor in the laptime"? Today, it got to the point where it was a lottery rather than a test of skill. I'd rather they threw a red flag and we waited for a real contest for pole, which in the end the best driver on the grid got, and hardly in the easiest of conditions either, might I add. That's not to say they don't throw it early sometimes, but that wasn't the case today IMO. Attending the session gives you the advantage of...soaking up the atmosphere. And the disadvantage of standing around waiting if a red is thrown. So it has always been and shall forever remain

But then you're penalising the guys who DID get it right - like Perez, Vergne etc. They were on the right tyres at the right time and should have kept their times. Ferrari got it wrong in Q2 but still got pole...is that really fair?

Would they have thrown a red flag had the likes of Ferrari NOT been there? Playing the devil's advocate but it did seem to favour the big teams more than anyone else.

[Massa 0]

Eh, they didn't know it would favor the big teams...it favored the big teams because the big teams have the best cars and drivers. If they added time to a qualifying session, that's controversy, but completing the scheduled course of a session is normal procedure and there's nothing controversial about that, to me at least. They ran the scheduled session and, as usual in sports, the best rose to the top. If you stop every Q2 for the rest of the season with 6 minutes to go, you'll probably find the top ten changes a lot in the final 6 minutes, so it's not really anything weird...

They did the right thing doing everything they could to complete standard procedure.

Question, for the rules experts: if qualifying is completely washed out, and not a single car turns a lap, how do they line up? By points or by practice?

Follow-up: if qualifying had stopped partway through, would they have lined up based on the times at the stoppage, or would they erase the session entirely and line up by points or by practice?

[Massa 0]

Okay wait...I misread...you were saying that they should have never thrown a red flag and let it play out...my bad...I'm daft...well, I don't think there's any controversy in it but I guess you could make that case. I'm glad they red-flagged it, so I got to see it all.

I think they red-flagged it because they deemed the conditions inappropriate, not because they deemed the grid inappropriate. They know it as well as we do; a messed up grid is more exciting, and excitement is FIA's new motivation these days. They'd rather have Pérez on pole and JEV in fourth to make a wild race...but they did the fair thing with honest intentions and that was that. At least in my naïve mind that can't properly comprehend posts.

[JHS18 0]

Question, for the rules experts: if qualifying is completely washed out, and not a single car turns a lap, how do they line up? By points or by practice?

Follow-up: if qualifying had stopped partway through, would they have lined up based on the times at the stoppage, or would they erase the session entirely and line up by points or by practice?

Yeah exactly. As was pointed out on the BBC - if drivers think the conditions are too bad in qualifying - just come back to the garage...

Christian Horner said something to the BBC about them lining up in number order if that was the case, but I'm not entirely sure. He probably wanted that anyway on the basis Red Bull are 1 and 2...

But I've never known a qualifying session to not go ahead at all. They postponed it till Sunday in Japan a couple of times because of bad weather, but never not done qualifying. And yes - that's exactly how it works. I remember the '09 Brazilian GP that they stopped qualifying half way through because of heavy rain - they held it off as long as they could before poor light became an issue. The times that had been set up to that point formed the grid.

[JHS18 0]

Or at least that's how I remember it...but looking at the qualifying results doesn't make it look that way.

[Rainmaster 7]

I agree with our main mod man Eric. First of all, I don't think generally that "fairness" comes into it where safety is involved, other than to say that decisions made for reasons of safety will always benefit some people and hurt others (and usually balances out over a season). The only way fairness comes into that is to accept that life is unfair, sometimes you will profit, sometimes you won't.

Secondly, I think the FIA/stewards do generally make those decisions based on safety. I don't buy any of those conspiracy theories, for one, they always assume far too much: for example, that the FIA knew that Ferrari would end up on pole or be helped by the stoppage (not at all predictable at the time), that the rain would ease so that qualifying could justifiably be restarted (and if it isn't, FOM, FIA and everybody are put in what can only be a losing position no matter which way you look at it, commercially and so on), and I think the list could go on. Nobody should fool themself into into thinking any organisation has the required level of foresight and competence to actually sustain such conspiracies (and this goes for conspiracies generally).

Thirdly, I don't think it's even a question of people doing a better job or not. As a point of fact, aquaplaning has no regard for skill, setup, or tyres; you rely on luck more than skill. Many cars had already gone off the track at the time of the stoppage, and two drivers at least (not all transmissions are televised) had criticised the conditions (Alonso and Hamilton).

As for drivers choosing not to go out, the age old problem is that given the choice, drivers will almost always want to go out and try their best (given it actually takes more balls to pull into the pits, a la Prost). Thinking the drivers are smart enough to have imagination and self-preservation is giving them too much credit The teams are not much better in that regard, being determined to steal an advantage wherever they can. As entities, neither of them (drivers or teams) can be put in charge of such decisions, because of their interests. No, the FIA/stewards must have authority and liability in these decisions (not that the FIA or stewards can be completely trusted in practice to make decisions, either, but that's a different problem). Besides, continuing a session no matter what makes no sense as where do you end that? Oh there's a hurricane, but it's your choice whether you go out, not our problem if your car ends up in a different county!

I'm pretty sure if qualifying can't continue it is based on times (but I'm not sure from where).

[AleHop 0]

Thirdly, I don't think it's even a question of people doing a better job or not. As a point of fact, aquaplaning has no regard for skill, setup, or tyres; you rely on luck more than skill. Many cars had already gone off the track at the time of the stoppage, and two drivers at least (not all transmissions are televised) had criticised the conditions (Alonso and Hamilton).

Rewatching that part of Q2 before the red flag, I realised Hamilton nearly crashed into the rear of a Sauber? Many drivers lost the car or went off the track so the situation was really dangerous if a car aquaplanning hit some other off the track or slowing down before a corner.

I agree with Massa and the Rainmaster.

James, I respect what BBC commentators have to say on the matter but that was bollocks. When is the right time for the red flag? Do they support only deploying a red flag when there's a fatal crash? What's the red flag for?

We're used to inconsistencies on penalties, etc. but not as much on red flagging an event.

[Quiet One 15]

By "playing the devil's advocate" I guess he meant that he does not buy it himself.

And that would be wise because it makes no bollocking sense Basically, by what was already stated by Eric, George and Alex.

A hint for you: If you have to carry something, always pick an Ockham's razor over a tinfoil hat

You could have a vastly, complex conspiration with no guaranteed results to favor Ferrari (and Mercedes, and RBR, and whoever could have got into Q3, Ricciardo, for example, unless they also planned in advance Grosjean's off road excursion) OR you can think that the BBC is having a mild case of the sour grapes because it was obviously a not flattering qualy for the local boys. Not to blame them (too much), when the Maradona doping case came out, most media here was more interested in finding what conspiracy made him target for a dopage test than whther he was a drug addict or not.

You just need to make so many assumptions and believe so much BS (for example, the fact that no other team protested the red flag or Alonso's yellow flag time...yeah, DiResta "wanted to know" how did he do it, and we never heard anything again from anybody else, so I guess somebody showed him the lap times) that if you are ready to accept such conspiracy, you might as well stop watching Formula 1 and start watching...I don't know...Scooby Doo. If I believed such levels of farce were actually common in F1 I would do that. Why watch a sport if I have so little faith in it?

Besides, not even "Yer" Noige have objected (And if he had, controversy would have risen to epic proportions...they really should have brought some non-local driver...I insist, even if in this case it helped make my point)

[Rainmaster 7]

Yup Ale. Andres, I agree on not having a local driver steward. It's just dumb. I also don't get the impression James fully buys it as a conspiracy either, but just thought the conditions didn't merit a red flag on safety grounds, which I don't agree with but is much more a matter of opinion, whereas conspiracy theories are always on shaky ground.

Also, in the BBC's defence, I don't think they were actually suggesting the conditions were okay to drive in or thought the red flag was unnecessary. From what I watched (admittedly very little of the red flag period, which I skipped through on a recording) it seemed like they were just going down the "should red flags be thrown for bad conditions" argument to fill time, rather than as a serious complaint or proposal.

[AleHop 0]

Maybe they don't think there's a conspiracy. Maybe they truly and sincerely believe that: if a driver don't feel like driving he should just sit out. Was that what the BBC said?

Of course I don't agree with them. In such case I'd give Race Director the prerogative of cancelling a session (Q1, Q2, Q3) once it was too dangerous and lap times aren't improving. What was the point of having the drivers on a clear risk if there was no way they were going to improve?

You all would have missed this marvel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKC0fI9Gdnc

That was on the limit!!! The last few corners were breath taking.

[Quiet One 15]

Yup Ale. Andres, I agree on not having a local driver steward. It's just dumb. I also don't get the impression James fully buys it as a conspiracy either, but just thought the conditions didn't merit a red flag on safety grounds, which I don't agree with but is much more a matter of opinion, whereas conspiracy theories are always on shaky ground.

Also, in the BBC's defence, I don't think they were actually suggesting the conditions were okay to drive in or thought the red flag was unnecessary. From what I watched (admittedly very little of the red flag period, which I skipped through on a recording) it seemed like they were just going down the "should red flags be thrown for bad conditions" argument to fill time, rather than as a serious complaint or proposal.

Ah, I see. Well...I haven't watched the BBC so I can't really understand in which context they made the comment. But again did they bring out this same issue at other times when races/practice sessions were red flagged for bad conditions?

Like you said, the actual opportunity to red flag a sessiono is a matter of discusion, but in the end it comes down to the FIA (Whitting) discretion. That is not because they are an almighty evil power. That is exactly why there are authorities in every sport. That is why you have umpire's in tennis, or referees at football matches, after all. To make these kind of calls.

Many cars have already aquaplanned by then. Hamilton, who would have benefited most had the sesion not been red flagged and which had built a reputation (among his fans, at least) of being a "shut up and drive" driver under these conditions was complaining himself that it was impossible to continue like that.

Drivers agreed that it was impossible. Teams agreed that it was impossible CW agreed that it was impossible.Sometimes they can be controversial but if there ever was a case of a non-controversial red flag is this. Alonso was ultimately benefited? BTW why nobody mentions MSC who was also benefited? Or DiResta and Ricciardo?

What would have been he purpose of watching cars aquaplanning everywhere? Then everybody would have been complaining. Weren't they complaining a mere hours ago about De Villota and why trucks with ramps at eye level of cars driven by beautiful ladies have not been contemplated before by FIA?

Ah, but I'm being daft here. They could have all just went to the pits and stay put if they thought that it was undriveable and suck it up and lose. Really? My bet: then people would be complaining about the martyrs on the grandstand that paid lots of money and endured rain and traffic jams just to watch a bunch of pussies not going out (which was pretty much what they were complaining about 24 hours before)

Anybody besides George and Alex see a pattern there?

[AleHop 0]

Anybody besides George and Alex see a pattern there?

Right before it was red flagged the cars out of Q3 were MAL, DIR, GRO, MSC, MAS, ALO and SEN. Would it have been controversial if ALO hadn't got through to Q3? I don't think so.

Even though I think controversy is good and necessary, safety is a must dry or wet. As I said, let Race Director finish a session for good once the situation gets to a point of danger and fruitless effort for the drivers.

[Quiet One 15]

I bet you this. If tomorrow Alonso does not win, nobody will recall that the powers-that-be were powerful enough to make such contrived conspiracy to get him through Q3 yet they will be powerless to make him win tomorrows race (from pole!).

Some guy at a news site was actually accusing Santander money (hey Brad, you must have been talking with that guy! j/k) of paying Hamilton onto sabotaging his own race so Alonso/Santander could be better positioned. Curiously, Santander money/FIArrari was powerless at the other races Alonso did not win, not to mention entire seasons he did not become WDC! Some puny powers-that-be we have there!

[Rainmaster 7]

On the Beeb, I don't think any of the presenters made a comment as such, I just think they put the question: "why is it that drivers don't just drive slower or choose to pit, instead of having a red flag"? They put something similar to that to a few TP's I think, who batted it back with the usual rebuttals already mentioned here. It was more of a time filling/explanation for the viewer thing rather than anything else, or at least that was my impression from the ten minutes or so total of what I saw when skipping through the filler stuff. No big agenda or anything and I can't remember them ever being too critical of red flags in general (well, except the ones which were ridiculous ).

[Rainmaster 7]

Andres, the powers-that-be only interfered with the qualifying session because they're not watching the race tomorrow. They have money on Murray at Wimbledon!

[yurp 0]

funny thread - funny qually.

fun fun fun.

shame perez starts 15th.

that is all.

carry on.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Eddie Jordan just came across like a miserable old git on the BBC coverage (no change there, huh?!)

The conditions looked pretty awful and for me I was glad they red flagged it as it was only a matter of time before someone had a spectacular crash...

.. which would mean they would have had to use a red flag....

[voriax 0]

I do agree that red flag shuold be showed but from my poit of view the decision was made too late.

Too many good drivers get off the track - even MSC and it was shocking for me...

What about MSC today? is Mercedes Car competitive?

[AleHop 0]

Andres, the powers-that-be only interfered with the qualifying session because they're not watching the race tomorrow. They have money on Murray at Wimbledon!

Oh, I saw many comments about Murray on a few forums. He said Alonso was the best driver on the grid? Where he said that? Not that I think those comments from a tennis player are any important.

Seriously, I expect they have their money on Federer FTW at Wimbledon. Unless it was Murray Walker playing, it is Federer's and he might win the Olimpics too.

[JHS18 0]

James, I respect what BBC commentators have to say on the matter but that was bollocks. When is the right time for the red flag? Do they support only deploying a red flag when there's a fatal crash? What's the red flag for?

We're used to inconsistencies on penalties, etc. but not as much on red flagging an event.

Use the red flag in the race...

Look - qualifying's a timed session right? Drivers DON'T have to go out if they don't want to. We've seen that many times this year (albeit in different circumstances) where people have not set a time to save tyres. It is up to the drivers to make the call - if they think the conditions are dangerous - you don't HAVE to set a time...

The guys who got it right were penalised when they'd done the better job. I believe from memory Ferrari sent their two drivers out on intermediates to start with - they messed up, yet get pole position.

Anyway, on the basis it is race day, I'll leave that argument here. No point carrying it on.