بعض الكلمات العشوائية باللغة العربية لكنك تعلم ما أنا في اشارة الى، أليس كذلك؟

[Quiet One 15]

According to Alonso, his best time in Q3 is the exact best time he did in Q2 so there's not much ado.

I missed Vettel stopping after Q3! If he gets a penalty, conspirationists will have a feast! And frankly, these kind of things are so odd even I kept thinking they must've scripted.

(Buttonites, don't take the following sentence seriously, it is just for comparison purposes and not actually a criticism)

So...no mention of whinebags or crybabies on this?

"Lots. Understeer on turn-in. Traction very poor. Locking up fronts and rears. So there's lots that wasn't working."

Jenson Alexander Lyons Button, MBE, on what was wrong with his car

Would you rather read "Oh, everything was dandy! I've never felt so alive in my life! Who cares about performance? I feel so free!!!!!"

I know, I know, it's useless. If in the next hours Alonso says as much as "we could have been faster" or "the car is not fast enough", talks of "choking" and "throwing tantrums" will be back in a femtosecond....*sigh*

It ain't easy being a fan!

[Rainmaster 7]

Nothing wrong with talking about car performance, but does anyone have any idea why Alonso was waving frantically at Webber during qualifying? Webber was quite some way ahead, so I can only put it down to Alonso being a bit paranoid or just the general pressure he's under this weekend. The latter could also apply to Vettel's mistakes during quali.

It's a good line-up for tomorrow and to me it looks like Red Bull are a little on the back foot this weekend; luckily for them, Ferrari are too - even more so. I just hope both contenders have a trouble free race.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

According to Alonso, his best time in Q3 is the exact best time he did in Q2 so there's not much ado.

I missed Vettel stopping after Q3! If he gets a penalty, conspirationists will have a feast! And frankly, these kind of things are so odd even I kept thinking they must've scripted.

(Buttonites, don't take the following sentence seriously, it is just for comparison purposes and not actually a criticism)

So...no mention of whinebags or crybabies on this?

"Lots. Understeer on turn-in. Traction very poor. Locking up fronts and rears. So there's lots that wasn't working."

Jenson Alexander Lyons Button, MBE, on what was wrong with his car

Would you rather read "Oh, everything was dandy! I've never felt so alive in my life! Who cares about performance? I feel so free!!!!!"

I know, I know, it's useless. If in the next hours Alonso says as much as "we could have been faster" or "the car is not fast enough", talks of "choking" and "throwing tantrums" will be back in a femtosecond....*sigh*

It ain't easy being a fan!

I don't know what is wrong with Button, he's the most up and then down driver I know that's brilliant the one day and ordinary the next!

[Rainmaster 7]

I don't know Button's issue either, but his up and down-ness needs to be overcome to lead Macca. I think that this circuit really suits Ham's driving style incredibly well, and doesn't at all suit Button's. That only explains half the gap, though.

From Twatter:: Vettel latest: Red Bull team boss Christian Horner and Renault track operations chief Remi Taffin are heading back to the stewards' office @mrjakehumphrey

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I feel Kimi is in a very good space to perform well here, feeling pace from his rocket, watch for an upset from the Iceman

[Quiet One 15]

I don't know what is wrong with Button, he's the most up and then down driver I know that's brilliant the one day and ordinary the next!

Nothing wrong WITH the guy!! That's my point!!

He's just frustrated because the car felt awful. Now, we can argue whether the car feels awful because the car was actually awful or because Button could not find a way around the behavior f the car to extract more performance, but in any case frustration is a natural reaction. He is under no pressure for the championship or fighting for a seat or number one position within his team, btw.

So if Alonso waved his fist at Webber (and yeah, George, it seemed to me that Webber was very close at some stages in Sector three, before the wave fisting which was obviously made at the main straigth when blocking was not noticeable anymore, although I was not sure the proximity was enough to warrant a penalty. And apparently it didn't even warrant an investigation so that's the end of it), or Vettel does get a penalty and looks like a kid about to cry and say something foolish, why do these guys going to be labeled as crybabies?

Equality!

[Quiet One 15]

I feel Kimi is in a very good space to perform well here, feeling pace from his rocket, watch for an upset from the Iceman

Not sure about that but if he starts ahead of both Vettel and Alonso (or even just ahead of Alonso) he is going to be some serious threat to whoever tries to mess with him. I somehow feel like, at the end of tomorrow I will be hating your heheheeees more than Vettel's finger

[Rainmaster 7]

RT @5LiveF1 Christian Horner tells BBC's Gary Anderson that there was a problem with the fuel system @andrewbensonf1 11 minutes ago

That Horner remark v interesting - I was told by insiders a while ago unconfirmed rumours that Vettel did not have enough fuel@andrewbensonf1 13 minutes ago

RT @mrjakehumphrey Gary Anderson on it - just now the only man to grab Christian Horner... CH said fuel issue & we'll find outcome 'shortly'@andrewbensonf1 14 minutes ago

Yikes!

[Quiet One 15]

Oh, come on! The guys are above perfect for 3, 4 races? And suddenly when it should have been another day at the office they suddenly act as McLAren at it lowest? Who wrote this script? It would suck even for a Spielberg film!

Whitmarsh has to go!!!

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Not sure about that but if he starts ahead of both Vettel and Alonso (or even just ahead of Alonso) he is going to be some serious threat to whoever tries to mess with him. I somehow feel like, at the end of tomorrow I will be hating your heheheeees more than Vettel's finger

Hehehehehehehehehehe

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Oh, come on! The guys are above perfect for 3, 4 races? And suddenly when it should have been another day at the office they suddenly act as McLAren at it lowest? Who wrote this script? It would suck even for a Spielberg film!

Whitmarsh has to go!!!P

Lol Classic Andres

[BradSpeedMan 6]

This damn iPad doesn't allow emoticons, it's just not the same damnit

[Quiet One 15]

This damn iPad doesn't allow emoticons, it's just not the same damnit

Hehehehee

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Hehehehee

Show off :-p

[Quiet One 15]

Show off :-p

My Ipad doesn't allow me to post emoticons! Waaaaah!!!

Crybaby

[Rainmaster 7]

This is taking a long time, this Vettel decision. Smacks of a negotiation between Red Bull and the FIA, rather than a simple, clear application of the rules. Stupid.

[Quiet One 15]

This is taking a long time, this Vettel decision. Smacks of a negotiation between Red Bull and the FIA, rather than a simple, clear application of the rules. Stupid.

FIA: ""Ok, we will let him get away scott free, but in exchange we demand...HIS FINGER!!"

RBR: "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooo...."

(Actually, I would even feel happy with that outcome )

[Quiet One 15]

Apparently a pit lane start for Mr.Vettel. More drama!

A big emotional hit but my guess is that it won't have much impact on the championship outcome. Even if Vettel finishes outside the points Alonso still must finish above 4th just to match Vettel's curent points. And THEN beat Seb in the remaining two races.

[Rainmaster 7]

Apparently a pit lane start for Mr.Vettel. More drama!

A big emotional hit but my guess is that it won't have much impact on the championship outcome. Even if Vettel finishes outside the points Alonso still must finish above 4th just to match Vettel's curent points. And THEN beat Seb in the remaining two races.

True.

It's the right decision and the wrong decision. It's the right decision because that's the precedent set by Spain this year. With such a black and white rule being in place, you cannot defeat precedent. In that sense, the consistency is welcomed and any other decision would have been a serious controversy (although the fact it took so long is interesting, the circumstances may be different but did it take so long to be decided in Hamilton's case earlier in the year?).

More broadly though, it's the wrong decision, because this rule is very stupid in the first instance both from a sporting POV and a legal, rule enforcement POV. It makes no sense to have an absolute punishment (disqualification) for a scenario where you can simply allow other times from qualifying to remain valid. After all, the apparent justification for this rule is to prevent an advantage for running the car light. In that case, assuming that's what Red Bull tried (an incredible leap), why not disqualify the last laptime set or the fastest one? If you think they are running an illegal fuel, why not test their fuel containers?

This is a technical rule that affects the sporting side way too much, IMO. It lacks easily available nuance and it's annoying.

[Quiet One 15]

True.

It's the right decision and the wrong decision. It's the right decision because that's the precedent set by Spain this year. With such a black and white rule being in place, you cannot defeat precedent. In that sense, the consistency is welcomed and any other decision would have been a serious controversy (although the fact it took so long is interesting, the circumstances may be different but did it take so long to be decided in Hamilton's case earlier in the year?).

More broadly though, it's the wrong decision, because this rule is very stupid in the first instance both from a sporting POV and a legal, rule enforcement POV. It makes no sense to have an absolute punishment (disqualification) for a scenario where you can simply allow other times from qualifying to remain valid. After all, the apparent justification for this rule is to prevent an advantage for running the car light. In that case, assuming that's what Red Bull tried (an incredible leap), why not disqualify the last laptime set or the fastest one? If you think they are running an illegal fuel, why not test their fuel containers?

This is a technical rule that affects the sporting side way too much, IMO. It lacks easily available nuance and it's annoying.

Re: Time to come to a decision.

Not knowing anything about the actual reasons and development makes it hard for me to judge whether 4+ hours was too long or too short. I can come up with an entirely hypothetical scenario in which this would have made sense, though (considering 1 hour they took to allow Mr.Whitting to have dinner )

FIA statement says that they accepted the force majeure claim by RBR but found that the car was underfueled. I guess that RBR could have alleged a failure which caused an unexpected waste of fuel and thus forcing the stoppage. That would make for a careful evision of the telemetry, the car and the rules. With a potentially championship deciding rule on the table, they decided to take things as calmly as possible.

Of course, all of that are mere assumptions but shows you that there are possible scenarios on which it was not irrational or fishy.

As for the rule itself I am not sure it is that harsh either. "not sure" being the keywords there. I can see how an underfueled car in Q3 makes all the other results suspect as well. The fairest (is that a word?) solution would be to have that rule in place for every session in Qualy for all the cars. Otherwise the cars that didn't make it to Q3 could question whereas the underfueled car didn't use the same tactic in previous sessions giving it an unfair adavantage on those ultimately left out.

And finally, as stupid as that rule might be, breaking a harsh rule like that only makes the breacher look more stupid than the rule itself

[Ikyrotz 0]

Heh, Vettel quoting the legendary Matti Nykänen... "Every chance is an opportunity"

[AleHop 0]

I won't comment on the rule but did RBR needed to go that light with Vettel? Why, just to be able to beat Webber? Marko, Marko, Marko...

Marko has to go?

[Massa 0]

I was totally unaware this was even going on.

It certainly adds another dimension to the race now.

[Rainmaster 7]

Re: Time to come to a decision.

Not knowing anything about the actual reasons and development makes it hard for me to judge whether 4+ hours was too long or too short. I can come up with an entirely hypothetical scenario in which this would have made sense, though (considering 1 hour they took to allow Mr.Whitting to have dinner )

FIA statement says that they accepted the force majeure claim by RBR but found that the car was underfueled. I guess that RBR could have alleged a failure which caused an unexpected waste of fuel and thus forcing the stoppage. That would make for a careful evision of the telemetry, the car and the rules. With a potentially championship deciding rule on the table, they decided to take things as calmly as possible.

Of course, all of that are mere assumptions but shows you that there are possible scenarios on which it was not irrational or fishy.

Agreed - you could explain it, hypothetically, and better the FIA take their time than rush to a decision. But we shouldn't have to do that work. The FIA need to be more transparent in their decisions, it would better serve us, and their own reputation if they are confident in their process. The lack of transparency in itself is a sign of suspicion about their competence. Transparency was something that was promised at the start of Todt's reign, and for me, is still the biggest issue in the application of the rules.

As for the rule itself I am not sure it is that harsh either. "not sure" being the keywords there. I can see how an underfueled car in Q3 makes all the other results suspect as well. The fairest (is that a word?) solution would be to have that rule in place for every session in Qualy for all the cars. Otherwise the cars that didn't make it to Q3 could question whereas the underfueled car didn't use the same tactic in previous sessions giving it an unfair adavantage on those ultimately left out.

And finally, as stupid as that rule might be, breaking a harsh rule like that only makes the breacher look more stupid than the rule itself

Thinking about it more, it's not so much the harshness of it that bothers me, but the fact that it's so inflexible in its construction. It's annoying because it's stupid, more than because it's unfair. Most black and white rules have some flexibility built into them. If you are overtaking someone and they push you off track, you probably won't be penalised despite it being a black and white rule to not overtake off track. If you overtake someone under a yellow flag, it will be okay if they are travelling slowly due to a puncture. Black and white rules that have flexibility might seem conceptually impossible, but in reality are very, very common.

You could easily build the same degree of flexibility into this rule. For example, if force majeure is accepted here then why not simply issue a 5 place grid penalty? Or disqualify the fastest time? Or even disqualify them from Q1. If you conclude they didn't intend for the car to be light, then it's seems ridiculous to send finger boy to the back of the grid. Apparently the rule states that you cannot access the fuel by removing body work; you could even remove that part of the rule and already it's much fairer (Red Bull allege the fuel is in the car, they just can't get to it without removing parts).

Yes, they are stupid if they actually under-fuelled the car by accident or intention (and they are simply making stories up), but if in this case it's actually not a question of them playing with the margins, then they have not been stupid at all, have they? In any case, stupidity should not be mistaken for malice and should not have such a (potential) affect on the championship.

All that said, I'm looking forward to a now slightly more exciting race. These are the races Vettel needs if he has the ability to shake his "not a great racer" label.

[Quiet One 15]

I sympathize with some of your views. FIA's rulings (and FIA's rules as well) are usually either obscure or ambiguous. So much secretiveness doesn't help, either.

On the other hand, it is also true that I find it extremely difficult to find a simpler, more lenient penalty system in a sport like this. There aren't many variables you can modifiy in a driver's race that won't make a huge impact in his race. Even the smallest of the grid penalties can have a huge impact over a single race. This is no football!

As for the black and white, I've been following the posts on other forums: Autosport, Technical F1 and PF1 (and it was really amusing reading some preposterous theories and so much contradiction abound!) . Among the more illuminated posters, though, there were good arguments on how this could have had many different outcomes even in the case of underfueling. Had it been a fuel pump problem, for example, it would have probably not meant an automatic P24 for RBR and perhaps not even deserving of a penalty at all.

The basic theory behind underfueling=DSQ is for blatant cheating. And underfueling a car in Qualy is actually the most blatant and stupid way of cheating a qualy session. There are many atenuating circumstances (force majeure being ambiguous enough to allow for many excuses). But it seems in this case, as it was the case with Hamilton, either the excuses presented were not good enough, or there was the feeling that RBR was being 'economical with the truth' in McLaren's words.

Anyways, as you said, it would be a great deal better at least for us F1 fanatics to know more about what was behind each of these decisions. But I think that is something not only FIA would not be happy about, but neither would the teams involved.

Finally, re Vettel not being 'a great racer'...well, somebody has grown too attached to the little Imp, methinks As of now, I don't think any serious F1 analyst would contest the fact that Vettel is not up there fighting for a 3rd championship merely because Newey carries him on his shoulders. The question on whether he is as great as the likes of Alonso is a matter of discussion on finer lines than the broad brushing of 'either Vettel is a great racer or he is completely useless'. That's fanboy talk.

His superiority over Webber either on track and outside it asserting himself as number one, his perfection every time it is required, his hard working ethics are all out of discussion I think by now. That's not something you find in any driver by any means. His ability to deliver when not in a mighty Newey supercar is his main achilles heel when it comes to perception but again what could he do? Go to Merc with Lewis? He is young and perhaps one day he will have a less formidable car to ride for a whole season, and as happened with Alonso, he might earn a lot more respect from friends and foes than he earned in his glory days (as it happened with Alonso as well)