Brazil

[dribbler 6]

see Steve this is what I have againts your rationale....You're starting the believe the hype that Alonso has generated...that it's HIM againts the whole RB package, without considering the fact that he had the whole Ferrari team behind him and had a good car package. Sure they were off at qualifying, but they made up for it with the best starts and being very competitive in race trim. Alonso is relentless because the car allows him to, but for Vettel it's all about what Newey can do to somehow boost Vettel's chances? Vettel delivered when he needed to! I don't understand your thinking, in all the years of following your post I'm really disapppointed that you can arrive at such bull!!!!

Brad, it's simple; The combination of Sebastian and Red Bull is stronger in its potential than that of Fernando and Ferrari. I don't think it's unfair to say that. Even though the race pace of the Ferrari is better than it's qualifying, it is still not a match for the Red Bull.

For those reasons alone, in my view Fernando's achievement was impressive. Please don't misunderstand me; Vettel's achievement was equally impressive and he is a derved champion.

I'm genuinely struggling to see where the subjectiveness is in my opinion. I hope you know I like to be as objective about these things as possible and I'm not generally one for being derailled by fanboyism.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Brad, it's simple; The combination of Sebastian and Red Bull is stronger in its potential than that of Fernando and Ferrari. I don't think it's unfair to say that. Even though the race pace of the Ferrari is better than it's qualifying, it is still not a match for the Red Bull.

For those reasons alone, in my view Fernando's achievement was impressive. Please don't misunderstand me; Vettel's achievement was equally impressive and he is a derved champion.

I'm genuinely struggling to see where the subjectiveness is in my opinion. I hope you know I like to be as objective about these things as possible and I'm not generally one for being derailled by fanboyism.

oh ok, I got a different impression from your previous post... let's also consider that Fernando had the whole team dedicated (you may disagree on this) to him and his particular driving style as he is the nr 1 driver in the team and Ferrari's philosophy on this. For Vettel, Red Bull were harder hit with the rules of 2012, so it took Vettel harder to come to grips with the particular tendencies and characteristics of a car not suited to his driving style, hence Mark Webber's ablity to get more out of it at the beginning of the season and he revelled in it. Case in point Massa sudden resurgence when the Ferrari and his ability to generate more heat into the tyres because of his driving style....

So, as you said, "The combination of Sebastian and Red Bull is stronger in its potential than that of Fernando and Ferrari", which also would mean that Vettel is simply a better driver than Fernando.

[Rainmaster 7]

The crash at turn 4 was Senna's fault, not Vettel's (unless you expect cars to disappear). The "overtaking under yellows" (much debated on James Allen's blog) was in fact legal for the reasons Handy said (no protest from Ferrari tells you that). It's also true to say that Vettel was lucky to still be in the race after Senna's misjudgement, but in fact here you could say "you make your own luck" - you will notice immediately after the crash Vettel is allowing the car to roll down the hill and already making minor steering adjustments to the car to try and put himself out of the way. Such is the presence of mind of a three times WDC.

On the Alonso/Ferrari v Vettel/Red Bull debate. I could only add that our perceptions on the two of them are influenced by at least two things. First of all, the Ferrari was (generally speaking) very slow in qualifying but a fast starting car and fast in the races. That, along with Massa's lack of performance (and Alex and I will disagree on how much Massa's performance is his fault or a partial result of Ferrari's driver policy too) means that Alonso's race performances will always seem even better than they were; which is not to say that they weren't incredible anyway. You will find words like relentless attached to them, it will look like he is dragging a dog of a car to front running positions. In reality, it's also true that the car is just a lot better in the races. You can never outperform a car - you can only outperform an expectation of what a car could do. A slow qualifying car being fast in the races make it much easier to "outperform" the car. Before you claim I am Alonso bashing, you can also look at Perez this year in a Sauber: his performances were more impressive because we didn't expect them, just like Alonso's podiums were more impressive because we thought the car was so slow.

In terms of our perception of Vettel. The Red Bull was also a difficult car in qualifying at the beginning of the year. Regulation changes meant he did not like the new style of driving required. Adaptation was needed. In China, he even tried to run an old spec exhaust to regain a more familiar feeling. The difference here is that while the Ferrari is a car that runs very well "in the pack", Newey's cars are designed to start from pole and run at the front, relying on cornering speed not straight line speed (although Abu Dhabi might show this is a flaw in their approach). As much as people think Vettel is only good when he's a frontrunner, that's certainly true of the Bull's - that's how they're engineered. What does that mean? It means that a driver starting in a Red Bull in the pack has somewhat less of an opportunity to impress us than a driver starting in a Ferrari in the pack. That's why RB struggled until they got their qualifying sorted again. That's why the fact that Ferrari never got their qualifying sorted never seemed to hurt them that much, in terms of still being able to make the podium.

Anyway, just some things to think about and once again (as I know this post is liable to being misunderstood) I think they both drove great seasons. Overall, I think Alonso and Ferrari had the second best opportunity to win this WDC (in terms of pace, reliability and team strategy/pitstops etc) and they didn't win it. Red Bull and Vettel had the best opportunity and won it. All is right in the world.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

The crash at turn 4 was Senna's fault, not Vettel's (unless you expect cars to disappear). The "overtaking under yellows" (much debated on James Allen's blog) was in fact legal for the reasons Handy said (no protest from Ferrari tells you that). It's also true to say that Vettel was lucky to still be in the race after Senna's misjudgement, but in fact here you could say "you make your own luck" - you will notice immediately after the crash Vettel is allowing the car to roll down the hill and already making minor steering adjustments to the car to try and put himself out of the way. Such is the presence of mind of a three times WDC.

On the Alonso/Ferrari v Vettel/Red Bull debate. I could only add that our perceptions on the two of them are influenced by at least two things. First of all, the Ferrari was (generally speaking) very slow in qualifying but a fast starting car and fast in the races. That, along with Massa's lack of performance (and Alex and I will disagree on how much Massa's performance is his fault or a partial result of Ferrari's driver policy too) means that Alonso's race performances will always seem even better than they were; which is not to say that they weren't incredible anyway. You will find words like relentless attached to them, it will look like he is dragging a dog of a car to front running positions. In reality, it's also true that the car is just a lot better in the races. You can never outperform a car - you can only outperform an expectation of what a car could do. A slow qualifying car being fast in the races make it much easier to "outperform" the car. Before you claim I am Alonso bashing, you can also look at Perez this year in a Sauber: his performances were more impressive because we didn't expect them, just like Alonso's podiums were more impressive because we thought the car was so slow.

In terms of our perception of Vettel. The Red Bull was also a difficult car in qualifying at the beginning of the year. Regulation changes meant he did not like the new style of driving required. Adaptation was needed. In China, he even tried to run an old spec exhaust to regain a more familiar feeling. The difference here is that while the Ferrari is a car that runs very well "in the pack", Newey's cars are designed to start from pole and run at the front, relying on cornering speed not straight line speed (although Abu Dhabi might show this is a flaw in their approach). As much as people think Vettel is only good when he's a frontrunner, that's certainly true of the Bull's - that's how they're engineered. What does that mean? It means that a driver starting in a Red Bull in the pack has somewhat less of an opportunity to impress us than a driver starting in a Ferrari in the pack. That's why RB struggled until they got their qualifying sorted again. That's why the fact that Ferrari never got their qualifying sorted never seemed to hurt them that much, in terms of still being able to make the podium.

Anyway, just some things to think about and once again (as I know this post is liable to being misunderstood) I think they both drove great seasons. Overall, I think Alonso and Ferrari had the second best opportunity to win this WDC (in terms of pace, reliability and team strategy/pitstops etc) and they didn't win it. Red Bull and Vettel had the best opportunity and won it. All is right in the world.

U bloody eloquent.........person!

[LabradoRacer 2]

Does anyone think Kimi's coming 3rd in WDC with a junk heap is as good as, if not better, Alonso's showing? I certainly do.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Does anyone think Kimi's coming 3rd in WDC with a junk heap is as good as, if not better, Alonso's showing? I certainly do.

Amen brother!!!

[AleHop 0]

Before you claim I am Alonso bashing...

I'm not going to claim anything. I'm happy with Alonso's job throughout the season and respect what others may say in a respectful way.

[JHS18 0]

Does anyone think Kimi's coming 3rd in WDC with a junk heap is as good as, if not better, Alonso's showing? I certainly do.

Not really, as that "heap of junk" managed to win a race and finish on the podium quite a few times in other races. In fact, I'd be so brave to suggest the car was the least of their problems...

[Rainmaster 7]

I'm not going to claim anything. I'm happy with Alonso's job throughout the season and respect what others may say in a respectful way.

That wasn't aimed at you, but good!

As for Kimi, I do think he was impressive. He showed he is still one of the most reliable guys in terms of race-craft and keeping out of trouble, and his speed was there plenty of times too. He wasn't as impressive as Alonso, Vettel or Hamilton, for me.

Season driver ratings according to me:

1. Alonso

(small gap)

=2. Vettel & Hamilton

(slightly bigger gap)

4. Raikkonen

(even bigger gap)

=5. Button & Webber

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Not really, as that "heap of junk" managed to win a race and finish on the podium quite a few times in other races. In fact, I'd be so brave to suggest the car was the least of their problems...

I wouldnt like to get into debates with you on driver skills and abilities, based on a certain post of yours beginning of the year. U must be really disappointed...

[HandyNZL 1]

Q: If Massa was crap a the start of the year, and let's surmise he never got suddenly better, then Alonso got crap at the end, no?

(hehehehhehe)

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Q: If Massa was crap a the start of the year, and let's surmise he never got suddenly better, then Alonso got crap at the end, no?

(hehehehhehe)

Hehehehehehehehe

[AleHop 0]

That wasn't aimed at you, but good!

I didn't mean you were bashing Alonso but even if you did I wouldn't consider it as classless and pathetic. Coming with BS after a season hidden in the trench it is.

[Rainmaster 7]

I didn't mean you were bashing Alonso but even if you did I wouldn't consider it as classless and pathetic. Coming with BS after a season hidden in the trench it is.

Oh, I knew that yeah.

Although I don't understand why it (the return of the bashers) bothers you as much as it does. Their opinions on Alonso are somewhat outweighed by pretty much everybody else's (especially after this year).

[AleHop 0]

Although I don't understand why it (the return of the bashers) bothers you as much as it does. Their opinions on Alonso are somewhat outweighed by pretty much everybody else's (especially after this year).

Their opinions on Alonso don't bother me but their return yes, it bothers me. In the way they've come back after a very good season with the only purpose of wind up and annoy people it bothers me very much. At the same time I don't care as people are free to show what they are made of whenever they please and I didn't expect anything different from them.

[pabloh20 1]

Their opinions on Alonso don't bother me but their return yes, it bothers me. In the way they've come back after a very good season with the only purpose of wind up and annoy people it bothers me very much. At the same time I don't care as people are free to show what they are made of whenever they please and I didn't expect anything different from them.

I can offer you no better advice than Gunnery Sergeant Highway in Heartbreak Ridge - don't give the pr*cks the satisfaction.

[Schumikonen 2]

I didn't mean you were bashing Alonso but even if you did I wouldn't consider it as classless and pathetic. Coming with BS after a season hidden in the trench it is.

One of your friends might tell you why I wasn't posting as I sent him a PM with my intentions sorry if he didn't tell you at the moment but everything is written, so sorry if my return bothers you but I am very please with your reaction, your selection of words for your comments and the use of certain other like dignity and respect but that's something that does not suit to those who follow Alonso and if you want we can debate that topic.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I can offer you no better advice than Gunnery Sergeant Highway in Heartbreak Ridge - don't give the pr*cks the satisfaction.

It really seemed to make an impression on u dear sir, even remembrance up to the last detail

[AleHop 0]

I can offer you no better advice than Gunnery Sergeant Highway in Heartbreak Ridge - don't give the pr*cks the satisfaction.

It was a minor altercation, sir.

[Ikyrotz 0]

Their opinions on Alonso don't bother me but their return yes, it bothers me. In the way they've come back after a very good season with the only purpose of wind up and annoy people it bothers me very much. At the same time I don't care as people are free to show what they are made of whenever they please and I didn't expect anything different from them.

You should just take it as a compliment! Not every driver is worth trying to wind up their fans. Just a proof that Alonso (among others) drove a great season.

[pabloh20 1]

It really seemed to make an impression on u dear sir, even remembrance up to the last detail

Well, I can remember useless stuff like that. Important stuff I have no chance of remembering

[pabloh20 1]

It was a minor altercation, sir.

You make a habit of that

[AleHop 0]

You should just take it as a compliment! Not every driver is worth trying to wind up their fans. Just a proof that Alonso (among others) drove a great season.

Probably a compliment for Alonso, that's true. There have been a few drivers that have done a great job this season. No doubt about it. Very few drivers, if any, would have lead the championship for a while and battled it out up to the last corner in Brazil to lose it by 3 points with the F2012 car.

[AleHop 0]

You make a habit of that

I watched the film very recently. Great acting by Eastwood as usually. He's like Alonso for films.

[AleHop 0]

If he can get himself into that zone again next year, (bearing in mind the performance of the Ferrari is now closer to the Red Bull) Vettel should be afraid. No doubt Newey is already thinking of how to give Sebastian the performance and reliability edge he will need to fend off the relentless Spaniard.

Alonso has to realise that consistency and reliability are not so important with 25 points per win, you need more race wins even if the car isn't as reliable as the F2012.

Besides, I think it's easier finding reliability in a fast car than making a reliable car fast enough. In any case he'll need a fairly good package to be able to beat Vettel/Red Bull if comments about the rules not really changing much for 2013 are true.