Massa

Malaysian Grand Prix

182 posts in this topic

Yeah Kati I agree on RBR. But I think the drivers and the team do know Vettel is their guy. How can Mark not see that. Does he actually believe he's on equal footing? Ok if he does, then put in some consistant performances. Learn your race starts for starters (ok today was good, but the last 20 odd have been woeful). Plus we keep hearing how poor Webber has lost Kers. Well Sh#t, it's happened to Vettel as well on multiple occasions. After today it should be pretty clear to see RBR have not in anyway tried to sabotage or impede Webber. Maybe that's the only good that will come out of this. The conspiracy theorists will find another target.

And what about this folks. Silverstone 2011. Am I not correct in recalling that the situation was the opposite of today. Mark was told to hold bay behind Vettel, but overtook him anyway. If I am correct, then Mark got what he deserved. I'm sick of him playing the victim card here. Politics or not, for the most part Vettel has been beating him week in week out. Sure Mark has the odd occasion where he's on fire, but he's not consistant enough and I don't think as polished a driver as Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton or even Kimi (though today's results were not even worthy of an ice cream! Bad Kimi Bad).

Webber's delusional and a very real danger to RBR. Despite what Vettel did today, I still feel he is more a team player the Webber. I still cannot understand how Webber is still even in that team after his antics in Brazil. I remember clearly watching that race and going finally, he'll get his a## kicked out of that team for his negative, whining and non team attitude. He keeps signing one year contracts with the team, another red flay if you ask me.

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Hmm, actually you're right Kati. Red Bull never really say that Mark is their number 2, so I at least assumed that they were letting their drivers race. Then we find out that no, they are not letting their drivers race and that's very stupid in the second race of the year. That's why I think that they were trying to send a message to Mark and pacify him at least for a while and then it would be him owing one to Vettel. But Vettel didn't play with the team strategy (probably thought it was stupid XD) and now we can't say he's not to blame in part.

But as you said, it's a completely wrong strategy. Not being clear about your position makes everything worse and Webber has never been one to hide his opinions. Now he feels doubly wronged and either they will have a bad year as a team or he will get the boot sooner than expected.

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Trying to evaluate this race outside of the TV coverage is going to be tough for me because they were under commercial for what felt like ~40% of the race. I think I would have enjoyed it, but I don't actually know! All I saw were shady insurance ads in a demographic mismatch with high-priced watches. :lol:

I love how Vettel and Webber hate each other, and the soundbites from Vettel (and from Hülkenberg about pushing like hell, as if that isn't what he's supposed to do) were hilarious. Vettel's move was exciting (when I saw it in replay :(), so I'm glad he did it. It wasn't the smartest way to pass, but I liked it.

Hamilton handled his situation pretty graciously, I thought. Rosberg's doing a good job to stay with him. I don't think many expected that.

Räikkönen versus Hülkenberg for umlauted süpremacy was pretty exciting. Hamilton pitting in the McLaren box was probably the highlight for me, though more importantly in the pit lane, Webber had a 2.3 second pit stop! 2.3! Unreal.

Was there ever an explanation for Ferrari/Alonso's decision? I assume it was just a risk to not have to go on the dry tires too early. Massa didn't really capitalize on his status of being number one today, mostly because he had an awful time on the intermediate tires. He was nice to illustrate how much of an advantage fresh tires are, going P5 to P8 and then back to P5. They lost nothing on that late stop, luckily for them.

Vergne scores what might go down as the most invisible point of the year, almost a minute and a half out from P1 and only making the show when he had an unsafe release into Pic.

The Hamilton/Rosberg stuff shouldn't overshadow how well Mercedes ran today. I hope that can be maintained.

Really dramatic stuff there. Two different approaches to team management today, and they left all four drivers somewhat disappointed.

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Well, I thought it was just footballers who where overpaid, under performing whiners with handbags at dawn. I guess it's been a while since so many dummies were thrown out of so many prams. :whistling:

The thing is, you can see both sides of the argument. It's all very well for a driver saying, for example in Mark's Silverstone 2011 soundbite that 'I am not going to crash into anybody' because we know that doesn't always happen when teammates battle with each other like this. So from a team perspective, it's not just losing 25 or 18pts, it's 43pts they will lose, in today's RBR scenario. As drivers I can understand they want to win and from a spectator point of view, you want the drivers to race. However, personally I only want to see team mates battling if it's on an 'equal' footing, so if the situation is unequal, as I suspect today's incident was, when one driver turns down his engine and is told the other driver won't pass, then to me that's as much a false result as team orders anyway. Also, it seems to be the general 'agreement' in these situations is that whoever is leading after the last pit stop gets to stay in front. From a team orders point of view, I would say that's as probably about as fair as it can get, but it doesn't cover every situation.

Regarding Lewis and Rosberg, then I think they could have just let Rosberg pass. I think they both may have had fuel issues, but Lewis was seemingly having to cruise more than Rosberg and so I don't think it would have killed them to swap places, especially as the pts difference is not as great as 1st to 2nd, for example. However, I guess if they have an agreement that whoever was leading after the last pit stops gets to bring it home in front, then they have followed that agreement. Also, it has to be said that Lewis generally looked quicker when not having to save fuel, even if there wasn't much between them, so I am not too sure Rosberg can have too many complaints on that score. Although of course that could have been down to the fuel difference :lol:

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The difference between both cases is that Lewis sounded 'cute' and Mark - Seb sounded like two old b**ches.

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I will give Hamilton a nod. He does seem to skate out of these situations nearly as slickly as ole Teflon Alonso.

Still Hamilton saying Nico deserved to get 3rd is no less credible than Vettel. If he felt that strongly, then let Nico past, or don't overtake him when he did pass you.

Vettel didn't handle it very well at all. But he did admit pretty quickly he made a "mistake". Now when did Schumi ever do that...

Personally, I think Webber got his just deserts for Silverstone 2011 and Brazil 2012. Where was the pitchforks and media circus then!?

I know people love to hate Vettel and continually don't rate him highly at all, but he's just won 3x WDCs in a row. Say what you will, like him or not, but that then makes him in terms of accomplishments as the best driver on the grid period. A shame really he doesn't get much respect, but after today it will only give fodder to his detractors. Good old hindsight might say don't do it again if he could go back in time, but simply by handling it better by his body language and interviews etc., could have diffused it alot more I think.

Edited by KoolMonkey

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I will give Hamilton a nod. He does seem to skate out of these situations nearly as slickly as ole Teflon Alonso.

Still Hamilton saying Nico deserved to get 3rd is no less credible than Vettel. If he felt that strongly, then let Nico past, or don't overtake him when he did pass you.

Vettel didn't handle it very well at all. But he did admit pretty quickly he made a mistake. Now when did Schumi ever do that...

Or alternatively, if Nico was as quick as he thought he was, Lewis shouldn't have been able to get back past him :lol:

Schumi never made a mistake. He just created opportunities for other drivers to have a sniff of a chance, otherwise it would have been too boring :whistling:

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The difference between both cases is that Lewis sounded 'cute' and Mark - Seb sounded like two old b**ches.

Yes indeed :lol:

I wonder if any bookies will take a bet on Mark decking Seb beofre the end of the season...........eusa_think.gif

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The website fanpage has already started getting the usual hate messages with offenses. Sweet.

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The website fanpage has already started getting the usual hate messages with offenses. Sweet.

Nice. I know I like to have a joke about some sporting situations from time to time, but to go and spout hate on a website because you're favourite driver lost, or whatever, does make you wonder sometimes. I guess it takes all kinds in this world.

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Exciting, but not as much as Kubi almost going down cliff face in the Canary Islands Rally... [sigh...] I really miss Kubi in F1...byebye.gif

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The website fanpage has already started getting the usual hate messages with offenses. Sweet.

I don't understand how anyone could take F1 so seriously to let themselves get legitimately angry and hateful over it. It defies reason to let your hobby make you mad.

The only person who should be disappointed with Vettel (and relieved, of course, with how it turned out) is Christian Horner. A stern warning to be a little more patient with his overtaking when it's against Webber (i.e. DRS zone or just a lower-risk move in general) so as to not jeopardize the team.

The rest of us?

We should be happy (and not surprised) with the fact that a racing driver selfishly pursued victory in the same way we romanticize them as behaving. People want to elevate the driver above the car, and then criticize everything the driver does. It doesn't go both ways. You want the focus on the driver, then you have to celebrate stuff like this: maximum performance, high-risk, must-win driving. I appreciated it and since I don't work for Red Bull Racing, I don't have to care about how it might have damaged the team if something had gone wrong. Rather than dwell on that, I'd rather look at what went right: it was an amazing overtake. Remember when people (probably me, actually :P) used to say Vettel couldn't pass? Ha! The guy's great at it. Talk about exciting.

And even if it hadn't been exciting, yeah, still no reason for people to be mean about it. It can simultaneously be the greatest sport in the world and only a mere sport, contested by people we will never meet and still actual people. Not that it's a surprise. That's why I like to hang out here. People here are nice about the things and characters they don't like.

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Quote of the day from Mr Coulthard: "Force India had problems with overheating nuts..."

Glad I'm not the only one.... smile.png

Eric on your post - another way of looking at it was that it was an employee who demonstrated insubordination. Whilst in this case it may not have mattered and made for a good show, as an employer it's a huge red flag. Next time they may not be so lucky and his decision could cost them big time.

Not anti Vettel, just as a boss mentioning a different angle.

Edited by Grabthaw the Hammerslayer

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Right, it's a good point. Any other perspective than my own, yeah, I see the issue. But as a spectator and a spectator only, I'll let them sort out anything they need to take care of, and lazily enjoy the show. :P

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I didn't even have to watch the race; NBCSports was nice enough to print the spoiler results on TV screen. The end of the Indy opening race, at St.Pete, was running 20 minutes long, so why put the F1 results on screen? I do not remember that happening on the "other" network. contimue discussion, I had to vent...sorry

Edited by murphious

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I didn't even have to watch the race; NBCSports was nice enough to print the spoiler results on TV screen. The end of the Indy opening race, at St.Pete, was running 20 minutes long, so why put the F1 results on screen? I do not remember that happening on the "other" network. contimue discussion, I had to vent...sorry

If you didn't watch the race, even knowing the results is worth watching, believe me. Lots of action not to mention what, by now, everybody talks about.

Yeah, I mean Sutil's overheating nuts (thanks, Mr.Hamsterlayer! Or something.) :P

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Can someone clarify something for me:

Was there a pre-race agreement and/or an in-race order to Vettel not to overtake (or something that would imply as much, i.e. lead car after last pit stop wins, etc)? It's starting to dawn on me that some type of agreement existed, and that's what people are talking about here. I just thought the concern from Red Bull was over how he made the pass, not the fact he did. Seems like the latter might also be a part of it?

Don't get me wrong, it doesn't change my opinion that, as a race viewer and nothing more, I enjoyed it. But it does make it extra audacious, and only proves how in the dark I am (in the dark as if I am a victim of poor coverage and not just a lack of attentiveness).

If you didn't watch the race, even knowing the results is worth watching, believe me. Lots of action not to mention what, by now, everybody talks about.

Yeah, I mean Sutil's overheating nuts (thanks, Mr.Hamsterlayer! Or something.) tongue.png

The NBC Sports version doesn't show any of that action, though.

(This is going to be a thread filled with angry U.S. Americans, I guess. I need someone to come in here and tell me about how they had to watch F1 in a 10-minute, incoherent highlights package on the radio, broadcast over a station barely within reach, eight weeks after the race happened, while walking uphill to school. Until then, I will not calm down). :lol:

(Oh, and yeah, it was a good race, worth watching if you get the chance, murphious, though one of the interesting things, wondering if the Mercedes drivers could catch up, will obviously not be as tense for you. I think there's another re-air on NBC Sports tonight, if you're willing to try it).

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Can someone clarify something for me:

Was there a pre-race agreement and/or an in-race order to Vettel not to overtake (or something that would imply as much, i.e. lead car after last pit stop wins, etc)? It's starting to dawn on me that some type of agreement existed, and that's what people are talking about here. I just thought the concern from Red Bull was over how he made the pass, not the fact he did. Seems like the latter might also be a part of it?

Don't get me wrong, it doesn't change my opinion that, as a race viewer and nothing more, I enjoyed it. But it does make it extra audacious, and only proves how in the dark I am (in the dark as if I am a victim of poor coverage and not just a lack of attentiveness).

The NBC Sports version doesn't show any of that action, though.

(This is going to be a thread filled with angry U.S. Americans, I guess. I need someone to come in here and tell me about how they had to watch F1 in a 10-minute, incoherent highlights package on the radio, broadcast over a station barely within reach, eight weeks after the race happened, while walking uphill to school. Until then, I will not calm down). laugh.png

(Oh, and yeah, it was a good race, worth watching if you get the chance, murphious, though one of the interesting things, wondering if the Mercedes drivers could catch up, will obviously not be as tense for you. I think there's another re-air on NBC Sports tonight, if you're willing to try it).

Yes, as I said previously, usually the teams like to get all the racing done within the team by the last pit stop and whoever is in front stays in front. RBR had that agreement in play today, multi 21 or something, I think was the code Webber said for it. Whatever it was, the code was given and Webber thought they were staying in formation and had turned his engine down as he had been instructed to do.

Edit - Eric, did you get any of the radio transmissions on your coverage?

Edited by pabloh20

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Ok, I wrote at least 4 posts about Webber/Vettel and deleted them. Most people already made more than perfect posts about the matter. Ditto about Hamilton/Rosberg, though I agree with Kool Monkey about Hamilton giving mixed signals apologizing but at the same time having fought on track. But, like Kati said, it didn't strike as bad as the other saga and, whatever it was, Hamiltoon looked genuinely upset.

Anyways, without my boy to root for, I actually had more time to enjoy the other drivers. I am glad for Hulkenberg and Sauber, at some point the Hulk was on fire there! Great race again for Vergne. i think racecraft wise he is not much better than Ricciardo, if at all, but he seems to be better at getting results.

My new boy Bianchi, nice!!! I wish we could see more of his racing. But the times were telling. Even when he fell behind due to the pitstops he catched up in a blink. I'll dub him from now on as Alonso the 2nd, Fernando the Minor or simply "I can't believe it's not Alonso!"

Does anybody know if Van Der Garde actually attends the races? I don't think I've even heard any mentions of him being lapped! The most anonymous driver ever!

Massa: er...there you have it, guys. No Alonso on sight, all the Ferrari love for himself, started 2nd and finished 5th. This guy's career being hampered by Alonso? Nah. He is good, just not that good. And when he is bad...oh my George!

McLaren: they must be glad about the whole RBR/Merc saga so nobody talks about them. That was...poor.

Gutted about team Poochie! Grosjean drove like Kimi. Kimi drove like Petrov. Petrov drove a Lada cab in Moscow. But it wasn't enough.

Roll on China.

And team orders are this year's Pirellis :lol:

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Ok, I wrote at least 4 posts about Webber/Vettel and deleted them. Most people already made more than perfect posts about the matter. Ditto about Hamilton/Rosberg, though I agree with Kool Monkey about Hamilton giving mixed signals apologizing but at the same time having fought on track. But, like Kati said, it didn't strike as bad as the other saga and, whatever it was, Hamiltoon looked genuinely upset.

Anyways, without my boy to root for, I actually had more time to enjoy the other drivers. I am glad for Hulkenberg and Sauber, at some point the Hulk was on fire there! Great race again for Vergne. i think racecraft wise he is not much better than Ricciardo, if at all, but he seems to be better at getting results.

My new boy Bianchi, nice!!! I wish we could see more of his racing. But the times were telling. Even when he fell behind due to the pitstops he catched up in a blink. I'll dub him from now on as Alonso the 2nd, Fernando the Minor or simply "I can't believe it's not Alonso!"

Does anybody know if Van Der Garde actually attends the races? I don't think I've even heard any mentions of him being lapped! The most anonymous driver ever!

Massa: er...there you have it, guys. No Alonso on sight, all the Ferrari love for himself, started 2nd and finished 5th. This guy's career being hampered by Alonso? Nah. He is good, just not that good. And when he is bad...oh my George!

McLaren: they must be glad about the whole RBR/Merc saga so nobody talks about them. That was...poor.

Gutted about team Poochie! Grosjean drove like Kimi. Kimi drove like Petrov. Petrov drove a Lada cab in Moscow. But it wasn't enough.

Roll on China.

And team orders are this year's Pirellis laugh.png

I suppose the team orders saga also over shadowed the fact of what the hell were Ferrari doing not calling Alonso in?? laugh.png

Edited by pabloh20

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I suppose the team orders saga also over shadowed the fact of what the hell were Ferrari doing not calling Alonso in?? laugh.png

Oh, I don't think it was that bad. i can see their PoV, after all, right until the moment the wing gave up he was keeping Webber at bay and holding onto 2nd, not that bad. it was a little like Germany 2005 with Kimi, when his flatspotted tire gave up on the last lap. Last race they gambled with Alonso and they won. This time they lost. That was not a mistake, that was a deliberate risk went wrong. The actual mistake is all ALonso's and is the contact itself with Vettel's car. That was his brainfade moment. He's got only one allowed per season according to my own rules so I hope this is it :D

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Yes, as I said previously, usually the teams like to get all the racing done within the team by the last pit stop and whoever is in front stays in front. RBR had that agreement in play today, multi 21 or something, I think was the code Webber said for it. Whatever it was, the code was given and Webber thought they were staying in formation and had turned his engine down as he had been instructed to do.

Edit - Eric, did you get any of the radio transmissions on your coverage?

Thanks. Your post is part of what indicated to me that I had missed a big part of this. laugh.png

We do get the radio transmissions so long as they are not on an advertising break. The only exchanges I heard from Red Bull were (all paraphrased and/or abbreviated):

Vettel: He's too slow, get him out of the way.

Horner: Don't be silly, Seb.

Horner: You have some explaining to do.

I had assumed the silliness was just him making a high-risk pass. I guess Webber's interview on the podium should have given it away.

My new boy Bianchi, nice!!! I wish we could see more of his racing. But the times were telling. Even when he fell behind due to the pitstops he catched up in a blink. I'll dub him from now on as Alonso the 2nd, Fernando the Minor or simply "I can't believe it's not Alonso!"

I'm happy to have an interesting driver with Marussia simply because the car is so beautiful. Bianchi is my new Pic, who was my new Grosjean, who was my new Vergne, who was my new Dillmann, who was my new Bourdais, who was my new Pagenaud, who was my new Gommendy, who was my new Perera. I have a history of falling in love with French drivers who I initially doubted, only to realize I went too far in the opposite direction and was now grossly overrating them. Maybe Bianchi will finally be the one who keeps impressing. I'd enjoy it. New drivers are exciting.

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"Apologies to Mark and now result is there, but all I can say is that I didn't do it deliberately."

Worst apology ever.

True. A completely empty apology. It's interesting to think about whether he owes Mark an apology, though. What I'm absolutely certain of is that he doesn't owe the media an apology, or any true fan of racing.

It's obvious he doesn't believe he did anything wrong, but recognises that his image is best served by apologising and the media will be somewhat placated. It annoys me that this is now the culture, where the media essentially demands an apology for trivial things, and so we get more apologies, but mostly just lots of meaningless ones for PR reasons.

Some people say they've lost respect for Vettel because it was an unsporting gesture. I'd like to say I would have had a lot more respect for Vettel if he'd simply come out and said "You know what, I am not sorry. I wanted to win and so I did win. I don't like disregarding instructions to the team but today I felt I had to". It's probably expecting too much for an F1 driver to break a societal norm like that.

I'm glad Vettel ignored team orders. It would have been a very boring end to that race otherwise with the two Red Bulls and two Mercedes not being allowed to pass each other.

He's a racing driver and went for it. He wanted to win more than he wanted to finish second. I like that.

Good stuff.

A thoroughly reasonable post, which perfectly sums it up from the perspective of the fan. I don't understand why every fan doesn't see it mostly this way (though of course you can understand the other implications too), even fans who are vehemently against team orders (if you don't like team orders, then I guess you would love today's result as it was an example of team orders being defied).

Ahhh, had such high hopes for a good Kimi result. Instead was entertained only by the intra team tussles of RBR and Mercedes.

Now I will say that at times I've been ok with team orders. But only in a case where the other team member is completely out of the running. At that point I am ok with things. I'm not ok with having a team member being told to stay put behind their slower teammate on race 2 of 19 however.

As for Webber, he got what he deserved. He didn't follow team orders in Brazil last year and did everything he could to wreck Vettels drive. So he got a dose of his own medicine today I think. Webber is not an innocent, so don't be fooled. As much as people have a go at Massa and Rubens for being the #2 lackeys, at least they played the part and actually took one for the team. As much as I loathe Ferrari (only supported them when Kimi was driving for them, so putting my partial bias in full view), you wouldn't see their drivers acting like that on the podium. I should have stayed internal Mark! And really what did you expect. Vettel has delivered the goods 3x over. Yes you had a chance some years back, but were not consistent enough. I don't know why RBR keep this guy around. Have you ever seen a more douer sad sack such as him. When does he ever smile or look happy or look like he wants to actually be in F1. What to speak of actually supporting Vettel when he was himself not in the running anymore. Flavio is terrible choice for a manager. He should be in Ferrari right now. Yes I know the irony, he'll still be a #2, but he won't be getting away with pulling his usual moan and throw the toys out of the pram routine.

As for Nico, that was weird wasn't it. He was clearly faster than Hamilton. And Brundle was right on the money. He reasoning was there was something in Hamiltons contract to give him the #1 status. But why did Nico have to pay for Hamilton's poor fuel economy? Personally I think Nico should get out of Merc as soon as possible. Possibly to Lotus or McLaren. Once they get ontop of their car, we'll see Perez still coming in 12th.

Anyhoo, cherios to the oldies on here.

It's good to recognise the nuances of team orders and the different situations in which they apply. If you accept that team orders are something that has to be part of F1 on some level (and if you don't, you are in a really extreme position as well as a patently unrealistic one), then it's worth thinking of some criteria for when you think they are justified. Since each case can be so different it's useful to have some kind of unifying factor for thinking about them, which in the case of team orders, I would say is the intention of the team. So the question for judging any case of team orders is: what was the intention of the team when giving the order?

Broadly, I think there are two (separate) motivators: 1) Protection of a team result (otherwise known as "please don't crash into each other"), and 2) Assisting a driver in the championship.

I think that use of number 1 is perfectly reasonable and justified at any stage in the championship, because the logic being used is that the team wants to ensure it gets as many points as possible. That logic applies equally well at any time of the championship, or to put it another way: the team will at no point be wanting its drivers to crash into each other whilst battling, whether it's Brazil or Australia. Most of the time, this kind of order is practiced after the last round of pitstops, so it doesn't make the result that artificial or rob us of much excitement. This motivation also operates (as we saw today) independently of any real or imagined driver policy. So these team orders are completely understandable even if as fans we would prefer to see outright war all of the time.

The second type of motivation is obviously the one which is most controversial and has links to number 1 and number 2 driver policies. I think that the use of this type of team order is harder to accept throughout the season, from a fan perspective. That's because although it might actually be logical to operate a team this way (though I would argue that it isn't because of the demotivating affect it can have on a driver), it's harder as a fan to accept this logic, because the results of this kind of team order feels much more artificial and unfair. While type 1 closes the door to racing, type 2 just takes a dump all over it. So it's never nice to see but I think most people can accept this type of order on some occasions, and you can draw the line anywhere from the last race where there's a title on the line (where I think most people can accept it), or thinking they're acceptable from race 1 (which almost nobody seems to think and generally no team actually seems to operate). I would say in most driver pairings halfway through the season would probably be a reasonable time to consider which driver to back, but certainly not all pairings.

Quote of the day from Mr Coulthard: "Force India had problems with overheating nuts..."

Glad I'm not the only one.... smile.png

Eric on your post - another way of looking at it was that it was an employee who demonstrated insubordination. Whilst in this case it may not have mattered and made for a good show, as an employer it's a huge red flag. Next time they may not be so lucky and his decision could cost them big time.

Not anti Vettel, just as a boss mentioning a different angle.

This shouldn't be seen as a side angle. This is the main angle and by far the most important one compared to a few misguided angry fans or idiots trolling Red Bull's website. I don't think Vettel was unsporting today. I find it strange that some people want to make it a moral issue (not so much here). I think that any footballer who ever faked a dive has committed a greater sporting wrong (every footballer) than Vettel's act. I think that many of the great drivers, including Senna, Schumacher and Alonso, have committed greater sporting wrongs.

I do however think he was extremely unprofessional, which is a new one for Vettel, as far as I remember. Of course, professionalism is something to be strived for, but how much it impacts on our view of a driver as fans really depends on the nature of their "professional transgression". Hamilton has been extremely unprofessional before, when he posted telemetry. Alonso was unprofessional when he decided to hold Hamilton in the pits in Hungary 2007. Raikkonen is probably the most consistently unprofessional, last year he missed a Thursday press conferences due to a hangover, and so on. None of this is of any interest to me, other than making judgements about drivers as people. As long as Vettel's "unprofessionalism" does not spill over into his driving, i.e. he starts driving dangerously (like Senna), or recklessly (like Grosjean), or slowly (like Chilton), I have no particular reason to care about it and neither should anybody else other than his team.

Edited by Rainmaster

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Oh, I don't think it was that bad. i can see their PoV, after all, right until the moment the wing gave up he was keeping Webber at bay and holding onto 2nd, not that bad. it was a little like Germany 2005 with Kimi, when his flatspotted tire gave up on the last lap. Last race they gambled with Alonso and they won. This time they lost. That was not a mistake, that was a deliberate risk went wrong. The actual mistake is all ALonso's and is the contact itself with Vettel's car. That was his brainfade moment. He's got only one allowed per season according to my own rules so I hope this is it biggrin.png

Hmmmm, not sure I agree on the gamble part as I am not sure what their aim would have been with the gamble. If it was to get to the first pitstops it seems an unlikely target and so I am not really sure what they were trying to gain.

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Thanks. Your post is part of what indicated to me that I had missed a big part of this. laugh.png

We do get the radio transmissions so long as they are not on an advertising break. The only exchanges I heard from Red Bull were (all paraphrased and/or abbreviated):

Vettel: He's too slow, get him out of the way.

Horner: Don't be silly, Seb.

Horner: You have some explaining to do.

I had assumed the silliness was just him making a high-risk pass. I guess Webber's interview on the podium should have given it away.

I think you got most of the transmissions there, or as much as I can remember anyway. If you saw the drivers talking before they went up to the podium, that may have given it away more :lol:

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