Massa

Malaysian Grand Prix

182 posts in this topic

As drivers I can understand they want to win and from a spectator point of view, you want the drivers to race. However, personally I only want to see team mates battling if it's on an 'equal' footing, so if the situation is unequal, as I suspect today's incident was, when one driver turns down his engine and is told the other driver won't pass, then to me that's as much a false result as team orders anyway.

That's the point and everything else is irrelevant in my opinion. They weren't racing on equal terms so they weren't racing. I don't see a problem with drivers disobeying team orders but when someone breaks an agreement which involves his teammate that's a different story.

Eric on your post - another way of looking at it was that it was an employee who demonstrated insubordination. Whilst in this case it may not have mattered and made for a good show, as an employer it's a huge red flag. Next time they may not be so lucky and his decision could cost them big time.

That's a good point but that alone would be just another employee/employer offence.

I suppose the team orders saga also over shadowed the fact of what the hell were Ferrari doing not calling Alonso in?? laugh.png

Oh, I don't think it was that bad. i can see their PoV, after all, right until the moment the wing gave up he was keeping Webber at bay and holding onto 2nd, not that bad. it was a little like Germany 2005 with Kimi, when his flatspotted tire gave up on the last lap. Last race they gambled with Alonso and they won. This time they lost. That was not a mistake, that was a deliberate risk went wrong. The actual mistake is all ALonso's and is the contact itself with Vettel's car. That was his brainfade moment. He's got only one allowed per season according to my own rules so I hope this is it biggrin.png

If you have a look at the live timing with http://f1lt.pl/ application and if you trust James Allen on the total time needed for a pit stop in Sepang = 22.5 seconds you realise Alonso would have finished 25 seconds behind 10th RG on lap 8 after the second pit stop for slicks 5 or 6 laps later. That's why teams sometimes do something we think is stupid, and it was maybe stupid, but maybe worth gambling this time.

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A thoroughly reasonable post, which perfectly sums it up from the perspective of the fan. I don't understand why every fan doesn't see it mostly this way (though of course you can understand the other implications too), even fans who are vehemently against team orders (if you don't like team orders, then I guess you would love today's result as it was an example of team orders being defied).

I think in many cases (or the ones I've read anyway) the reason so many fans seem to be against it is because it was ultimately decided in Vettel's favour. I have no doubts that if the situation had been the other way around, with Webber disobeying team orders and passing Vettel for the victory, most people would be saying how brilliant it was that he was so audacious, went against the blatant Red Bull bias and all that sort of crap. But because it's Vettel...well, there you go.

That's what happens when you win too much. You become deeply unpopular with the majority of fans.

It's a pity more people couldn't enjoy the spectacle for what it was - damn good racing - without getting so infuriated or whatever about it. Life's too short.

Edited by JHS18

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I think in many cases (or the ones I've read anyway) the reason so many fans seem to be against it is because it was ultimately decided in Vettel's favour. I have no doubts that if the situation had been the other way around, with Webber disobeying team orders and passing Vettel for the victory, most people would be saying how brilliant it was that he was so audacious, went against the blatant Red Bull bias and all that sort of crap. But because it's Vettel...well, there you go.

That's what happens when you win too much. You become deeply unpopular with the majority of fans.

It's a pity more people couldn't enjoy the spectacle for what it was - damn good racing - without getting so infuriated or whatever about it. Life's too short.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I like Webber, but I think it's somewhat hypocritical of him to be angry at Vettel, when he himself has said he ignores team's orders to hold position and not race against his team mate. Same goes with us fans: we can't be angry at Vettel both when Webber gets (and ignores) team orders and when Seb gets (and ignores) team orders. I think Webber drove great and deserved to win and it's a shame if he lost only because he turned down his engine, but given how hard they were fighting for the position right after their last pit stops, I find it hard to imagine Webber didn't expect Seb to try to pass him.

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If you have a look at the live timing with http://f1lt.pl/ application and if you trust James Allen on the total time needed for a pit stop in Sepang = 22.5 seconds you realise Alonso would have finished 25 seconds behind 10th RG on lap 8 after the second pit stop for slicks 5 or 6 laps later. That's why teams sometimes do something we think is stupid, and it was maybe stupid, but maybe worth gambling this time.

It's pretty easy to make the right decision after you see Alonso's wing come off. laugh.png

Marshals weren't flagging him, lap times were fine, a tire change was coming very soon. It makes enough sense to me when isolated from the consequences, which we would not know if we were Ferrari in the moment. I think the bigger question isn't why Ferrari did it, but why the marshals let them do it. Maybe I'm wrong there. I just think that, having had nearly a whole lap to see it dragging and making sparks, someone at the FIA would have made a decision. If someone at the FIA did decide the car didn't need to pit, then there was no reason to believe it was unsafe. And if there was no reason to believe it was unsafe, all the factors Andrés and you have pointed out apply. And if all those factors apply, well, Ferrari made the right decision at the time and got the wrong result.

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It's pretty easy to make the right decision after you see Alonso's wing come off. laugh.png

Marshals weren't flagging him, lap times were fine, a tire change was coming very soon. It makes enough sense to me when isolated from the consequences, which we would not know if we were Ferrari in the moment. I think the bigger question isn't why Ferrari did it, but why the marshals let them do it. Maybe I'm wrong there. I just think that, having had nearly a whole lap to see it dragging and making sparks, someone at the FIA would have made a decision. If someone at the FIA did decide the car didn't need to pit, then there was no reason to believe it was unsafe. And if there was no reason to believe it was unsafe, all the factors Andrés and you have pointed out apply. And if all those factors apply, well, Ferrari made the right decision at the time and got the wrong result.

The marshals these days are quite slow to act. I imagine if Alonso had been still driving around with the sparks and wing dragging by lap 10, then they might have done something. But one lap is far too short a time for them to react. Not because they can't do it, but history has shown how slow they are to act these days. Heck it's not often until lap 15-20 we see messages saying, such and such is under investigation for an opening lap incident.

Ferrari gambled and lost. And I'm ok with that since I don't support then lol. But they gambled far too much. They should have accepted Alonso's race was compromised, but they tried to get it all, race win included and lost everything. Better to have pitted asap, and then see how the race unfolded. A 5th or 6th place would have been alot better points wise than 0.

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I think in many cases (or the ones I've read anyway) the reason so many fans seem to be against it is because it was ultimately decided in Vettel's favour. I have no doubts that if the situation had been the other way around, with Webber disobeying team orders and passing Vettel for the victory, most people would be saying how brilliant it was that he was so audacious, went against the blatant Red Bull bias and all that sort of crap. But because it's Vettel...well, there you go.

That's what happens when you win too much. You become deeply unpopular with the majority of fans.

It's a pity more people couldn't enjoy the spectacle for what it was - damn good racing - without getting so infuriated or whatever about it. Life's too short.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I like Webber, but I think it's somewhat hypocritical of him to be angry at Vettel, when he himself has said he ignores team's orders to hold position and not race against his team mate. Same goes with us fans: we can't be angry at Vettel both when Webber gets (and ignores) team orders and when Seb gets (and ignores) team orders. I think Webber drove great and deserved to win and it's a shame if he lost only because he turned down his engine, but given how hard they were fighting for the position right after their last pit stops, I find it hard to imagine Webber didn't expect Seb to try to pass him.

Yep, people need to remember that Webber has done exactly the same thing. That doesn't excuse the act in itself (not that I'd say there's anything to excuse), but even for those people who see this as "cheating" should at least put it into the context that they're all the same. They all want to win.

I also think this whole episode reveals a lot about Webber's personality. We've always known that he simply does not play his hand particularly well, politically or psychologically, at Red Bull. I don't think Webber helped himself by coming out after the race, criticising Vettel but also criticising Red Bull, saying something like "Vettel went against the team but once again he'll be protected, that's just the way it is". Oh come on! Why doesn't he see the fact that Red Bull were perfectly happy for him to win the race! Hell, they even instructed Vettel, their so called number 1, to hold position. So instead of criticising Red Bull, why doesn't Webber take it positively, and use the fact Vettel has created a rift with the team to his maximum political advantage.

I know, not everybody can be a Rossi psychologically and politically, but Webber absolutely missed a trick here, criticising Red Bull when they were absolutely fighting for him to win the GP. Vettel on the other hand not only disobeyed the team but then played his hand perfectly once he got out of the car "oh I'm so sorry I won't sleep well tonight". Ha, yeah right! But well played.

It's pretty easy to make the right decision after you see Alonso's wing come off. laugh.png

Marshals weren't flagging him, lap times were fine, a tire change was coming very soon. It makes enough sense to me when isolated from the consequences, which we would not know if we were Ferrari in the moment. I think the bigger question isn't why Ferrari did it, but why the marshals let them do it. Maybe I'm wrong there. I just think that, having had nearly a whole lap to see it dragging and making sparks, someone at the FIA would have made a decision. If someone at the FIA did decide the car didn't need to pit, then there was no reason to believe it was unsafe. And if there was no reason to believe it was unsafe, all the factors Andrés and you have pointed out apply. And if all those factors apply, well, Ferrari made the right decision at the time and got the wrong result.

No no no no no, and no again. Just because the FIA didn't think so (and let's assume that - though KM's post is relevant) that would not be a reason to think it was safe! That would be a reason to think the FIA thought it was safe, which doesn't mean you shouldn't do your own reasoning. I understand that they were factoring in a lot of different things, but I think they made the typical F1 style mistake of trying to be too clever instead of just relying on common sense.

So it was a gamble, balancing all the different factors, granted. But let's recognise that not all gambles are equally risky, 50/50 style gambles. This was at least a 75% risk factor type of gamble (if you are an Alonso/Ferrari fan), more like 90 if you anybody else tongue.png That's a dumb gamble, especially so early in the race.

Also it was obviously a very rare and strange mistake from Alonso. Such mistakes are so rare that it almost makes me wonder whether he got a bad sleep the night before or something like that laugh.png Maybe he's just human, after all.

Edited by Rainmaster

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From Boris becker...

Becker sprang to Vettel's defence, describing his actions as the mark of a true champion.

"Just watched the highlights of Malaysian Grand Prix! Vettel did what a 3times champ is supposed to do....take matters in ur own hand !," Becker wrote on Twitter.

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I'm still somewhat bothered how Hamilton and Merc have cruised under the radar in all of this. Hamiltons sheepishness and mock humility on the podium was because he knew he stuffed his own race up. Fuel consumption is just as important as tyre management. Thus keeping Nico behind him, when it was not fault of Nico's, irks me more than the RBR saga. That was more of a manipulation than RBR asking Vettel to hold position.

I've read quite a few other things on websites today and am seeing a growing acceptance that Webber was not an innocent in this situation. Silverstone and most especially Brazil. He has chosen to ignore team orders himself in the past, so he got his just deserts today. There's even a snippet from Horner stating that things actually go back to Brazil in terms of bad blood between them. Webber should not still be in RBR after that day, but he is, so we're stuck with him until he ups and quits. And according to alot of the new tonight on the tv, they are almost hinting he is re-thinking is position. He's blown it on so many occasions, politically and by what comes out of his mouth. It would have been nice to see him at Ferrari. Even as the official #2 he could have still had a good crack at some races. As it stands since Brazil, I trust him the least of any driver on the grid, and that includes Maldonado or Romain. At least with Romain you know he doesn't mean it. With Maldonado, well he did mean it when he deliberately smacked his car into various other drivers. But with old Chavez pushing up daisies, he has to know his days are numbered now.

Edited by KoolMonkey

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As I have said elsewhere, the team is bigger than any driver component. Vettel is ignorant, disloyal and grossly insincere. He would not have 3 WDCs to his name had it not been for Adrian Newey. He is quick and a near-perfect car gives you supreme confidence but RBR pays his wages and he should be punished severely. A one race ban would do it for me. He beat a team mate who had his engine turned down - big deal! More than that he lost a huge amount of face and the pit lane and fans alike can only view him as a arrogant liar and a bad sportsman. Disgraceful.

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I'm still somewhat bothered how Hamilton and Merc have cruised under the radar in all of this. Hamiltons sheepishness and mock humility on the podium was because he knew he stuffed his own race up. Fuel consumption is just as important as tyre management. Thus keeping Nico behind him, when it was not fault of Nico's, irks me more than the RBR saga. That was more of a manipulation than RBR asking Vettel to hold position.

I've read quite a few other things on websites today and am seeing a growing acceptance that Webber was not an innocent in this situation. Silverstone and most especially Brazil. He has chosen to ignore team orders himself in the past, so he got his just deserts today. There's even a snippet from Horner stating that things actually go back to Brazil in terms of bad blood between them. Webber should not still be in RBR after that day, but he is, so we're stuck with him until he ups and quits. And according to alot of the new tonight on the tv, they are almost hinting he is re-thinking is position. He's blown it on so many occasions, politically and by what comes out of his mouth. It would have been nice to see him at Ferrari. Even as the official #2 he could have still had a good crack at some races. As it stands since Brazil, I trust him the least of any driver on the grid, and that includes Maldonado or Romain. At least with Romain you know he doesn't mean it. With Maldonado, well he did mean it when he deliberately smacked his car into various other drivers. But with old Chavez pushing up daisies, he has to know his days are numbered now.

Whatever Webber's past behaviour may have been it does not give Vettel licence to do as he pleases. The situation at RBR will be unbearable unless Seb is severely punished or Webber leaves. As a triple WDC, Vettel should set an example and do as his paymasters bid him to. He owes them his career.

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But Vettel did no worse than Webber did in Silverstone. And Webber's antics in Brazil, that is loyalty? Even Horner mentioned this goes back to Brazil, so he is aware there are issues at play here far deeper than just what happened in Malaysia. Time for them to pick a side I think. If Vettel is going to be punished, then Webber should have been punished.

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Whatever Webber's past behaviour may have been it does not give Vettel licence to do as he pleases. The situation at RBR will be unbearable unless Seb is severely punished or Webber leaves. As a triple WDC, Vettel should set an example and do as his paymasters bid him to. He owes them his career.

and they owe him the championships...RBR will simply fade if Vettel's not there...

Ban him for one race and it's game over. MW is playing very innocent here, comments about the higher authority who will do nothing, he uses it to create a rift in public space. Also, justice done for backing Vettel into Hamilton etc during the middle stages of the race. Very deliberate. That guy sulks like a kid!

Edited by BradSpeedMan

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I'm still somewhat bothered how Hamilton and Merc have cruised under the radar in all of this. Hamiltons sheepishness and mock humility on the podium was because he knew he stuffed his own race up. Fuel consumption is just as important as tyre management. Thus keeping Nico behind him, when it was not fault of Nico's, irks me more than the RBR saga. That was more of a manipulation than RBR asking Vettel to hold position.

Fuel management is important, but largely dictated by the team, I don't think the drivers have any consumption read outs in car, so they rely on the team to give them that information. If the team did not put enough fuel in, as Merc said they hadn't, then there is not an awful lot Lewis, or any driver for that matter, can do about it. Also, they did tell both drivers to push hard early in the race. They have said that if they let Nico past he would have ran out of fuel as well.

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A pretty good race all in all. although the talking points have been done to death (so I will kill them even more)

Alonso should be furious with the team for not ordering him straight into the pits, his exit could have been much more serious if the car had taken off - safety first for me!!

Nico was right to bitch, but right to obey as there was no win there to fight for. Hamilton just seems more mature at Merc so far.

Vettel was a prick, but Mr Horner should have simply ordered him to give the place back. I think that's what will p**s Webber off most, not that Seb behaved like a spoiled kid, but that the team made no attempt to chastise him. The same team that later in the campaign will be asking Webber to assist Seb.............so for the season ahead, advantage Ferrari (if they stop trying to kill Alonso)

and I'm still rather impressed with Bianchi

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and they owe him the championships...RBR will simply fade if Vettel's not there...

Ban him for one race and it's game over. MW is playing very innocent here, comments about the higher authority who will do nothing, he uses it to create a rift in public space. Also, justice done for backing Vettel into Hamilton etc during the middle stages of the race. Very deliberate. That guy sulks like a kid!

I had the exact thoughts on this too. Vettel is a 3x WDC! and in a RBR. If Vettel had not been in that team during this time and it was just Webber and some lesser degree driver (Kovi, that Russian guy, errm even Rubens), then RBR might have 1x WDC, might. But then again Alonso could have had one more WDC to his tally as well. Like him or not Vettel is top dog in RBR as far as drivers go.

How about Webber's antics of almost taking out Vettel in Brazil... or coming out and stating he wasn't going to help his team mate... or making comments that he hoped/thought Alonso would win. Hardly playing the team card there is he. Then to carry on like he does now, as though he's been the loyal subject, playing the team role for years finally waiting for his chance to shine... BS. What goes around comes around, and you have to say Webber has also not carried himself well in this at all, as his past is being spoken about to remind folks he's not an innocent by any means. He's a hypocrite. I didn't see Vettel going off on Webber, flipping the finger, spewing his issues out into public to try and embarrass his team mate, and thereby embarrassing his own team. Vettel could have easily hoped out of his car at Brazil and taken a swing at him that's how ridiculous Webber was on that day and I wouldn't have had a problem with it. Heck if Senna and past drivers have been that riled up, then having your own team mate almost scuttle your chance at a WDC would certainly qualify. Webber got a taste of his own medicine.

Fuel management is important, but largely dictated by the team, I don't think the drivers have any consumption read outs in car, so they rely on the team to give them that information. If the team did not put enough fuel in, as Merc said they hadn't, then there is not an awful lot Lewis, or any driver for that matter, can do about it. Also, they did tell both drivers to push hard early in the race. They have said that if they let Nico past he would have ran out of fuel as well.

All good points. My thinking on this is that a driver can still be reckless when it comes to tyre management and fuel consumption. Smashing the accelerator, or thrashing your tyres, means you're maybe as a driver not yet fully understanding that the modern day F1 does not = being able to go flat out all the time. You have to pace yourself and choose your moments.

Nico has come out and said that wasn't the case, that he was never asked to conserve fuel or tyres. And if he was then I wouldn't have a problem with them being asked to hold position. But he was disadvantaged either due to Mercedes not fueling Hamilton correctly, or Hamilton not being able to conserve fuel as well as Nico. Thus why should Nico have been punished for that? It would be like coming down hard on Button because he was easy on his tyres, or Kimi in Melbourne. It makes not sense. A driver should be rewarded for such things. But Nico was effectively held back not because of his own fuel worries or tyre issues, but because of his team mates. Now if this was the last race of the season and it mean Hamilton winning the WDC, then by all means do it. But it wasn't. And it didn't make sense to ask him to stay behind Hamilton. And Hamilton new this. It was like he was embarrassed he had been exposed as the teachers pet and getting preferential treatment.

Edited by KoolMonkey

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It's true that disobeying your team is a bad thing to do as a driver. It's also true that a driver who disobeys their team can be dealt with as their team sees fit, and it's pointless to speculate on what that might be or think our opinion as fans actually counts for anything in that regard.

I said before that I don't think this was a good example of Vettel lacking good sporting ethics. That's because Vettel disobeying a team order is a contractual issue between him and his team, rather than a sporting issue in this case (since Vettel did not, for example, break any FIA rules)*. The most convincing argument I've heard against this point of view is the "they were not on equal footing, Webber had turned his engine down, so it was unfair" argument.

I think that argument is superficially convincing but quickly becomes weak when you think about. Let's assume that Vettel did not turn his down too (Horner wouldn't confirm this but it's a safe bet, right?). First of all, it ignores the fact that Webber knew that Vettel was attacking him, and that Vettel had passed him, and at any point could have turned his engine back up, either prior to being passed or after he was passed.

Secondly, it assumes that Vettel's advantage came from the engine, in reality we don't know how much of it did come from different engine settings, but we certainly know that there are big differences between the two alternate tyre compounds they were on at that stage and that Vettel seemed much quicker. We can also assume that Webber would push as much as he felt he could to try and win, once he knew he was openly racing Vettel. The result we got was the faster driver, on better tyres, won the race, as if the team had not intervened at all. That sounds like a good definition of "fair" to me but I'd be willing to hear how it isn't fair.

Thirdly, and more broadly, it ignores the fact that such a thing as an "equal footing" does not exist in life and definitely not in F1 in general. If you want to see races where everyone is on an equal footing F1 is definitely not the series for you, with all the various intra team politicking with characters like Helmut Marko, different tyre strategies, different drivers getting different updates at different stages, contractual clauses about being the number 1, etc etc ad infinitum. So it's fair enough to say they weren't on an equal footing, that much is true, but I don't think it was so uniquely unequal to be considered unsporting (which by the way, we have seen many times in the past and I won't bother to bring these examples but everybody knows them).

I am sure that disobeying an instruction from an employer in F1 could be unethical from a sporting pov in some situations, though I think they are quite hard to come up with. Strangely, it seems a lot easier to me to think of examples where following a team instruction would violate sporting ethics, e.g. racing a car that you know is using an illegal component, or deliberately crashing to cause a safety car.

*Oh, I'd also like to say that had team orders still been "illegal" as per the FIA's regs, would we be holding Vettel up as an example of a driver who disobeyed his team in the interests of true sporting principles? I suspect not but I like the idea of it laugh.png

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Man, where did you "pick" this up! Hilarious!!!

One of the better things I saw on Twatter. Interestingly, I have since seen an interview with Vettel (before he realised how p**sed off some people were) where he said he didn't give a damn what people thought and it was an issue between himself, Mark and the team. I guess that makes him arrogant...

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One of the better things I saw on Twatter. Interestingly, I have since seen an interview with Vettel (before he realised how p**sed off some people were) where he said he didn't give a damn what people thought and it was an issue between himself, Mark and the team. I guess that makes him arrogant...

True, and againts Alonso fans better jugdment, as I've heard these excuses b4 of his misdemeanors, would be a trait of a great world champion!!!!

Vettel is going to be in the class of the truly great if he goes on like this

Edited by BradSpeedMan

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What's weird is if the roles were reversed, and Webber had been told to not pass Vettel and he did, which he did try at Silverstone but couldn't actually pass him, then Webber would be glorified as the guy who said things as they were, fighting against his own team, the injustice of it all. So it's the hate towards Vettel that makes it ok for the roles to be reversed. Heck if anything I've possibly become a bit more of an admirer. Vettel's got that killer instinct. Schumi had it, Senna had it and they were both legends. Vettel's already a legend holding alot of records to his name already. At any rate, he really does need to goto a PR class or something. He could have diffused alot of this, or even come out and said straight out it was payback for Brazil.

Where is the uproar over Nico being told to hold behind Hamilton? Reverse that situation and you'd have the BBC, heck the whole of Brittain crying foul that their golden wannbee gangstarr was asked to not pass his teammate.

There's a really good post on James Allens website about this. And alot of good comments too. Great to see that alot of the posters have not had the wool pulled over their eyes and are mentioning Webbers previous antics.

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I still think that this year, the RBR TEAM and the Ferarri TEAM are closer matched, and that it will require a good TEAM effort to deliver the WDC and WCC.

Possible future RBR radio message to webber - CH "Mark, Alonso is behind you , do not him past". MW " Sorry sport, I've accidentally run wide and he's already passed!harhar.gif "

Probable future Ferrari radio message to massa - MS "felipe, Vetel is behind you , do not him past". FM " Yes sir boss man, whatever you say boss..........did I mention that I'm forever grateful for being given a new contract.....I love you!"

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I had the exact thoughts on this too. Vettel is a 3x WDC! and in a RBR. If Vettel had not been in that team during this time and it was just Webber and some lesser degree driver (Kovi, that Russian guy, errm even Rubens), then RBR might have 1x WDC, might. But then again Alonso could have had one more WDC to his tally as well. Like him or not Vettel is top dog in RBR as far as drivers go.

How about Webber's antics of almost taking out Vettel in Brazil... or coming out and stating he wasn't going to help his team mate... or making comments that he hoped/thought Alonso would win. Hardly playing the team card there is he. Then to carry on like he does now, as though he's been the loyal subject, playing the team role for years finally waiting for his chance to shine... BS. What goes around comes around, and you have to say Webber has also not carried himself well in this at all, as his past is being spoken about to remind folks he's not an innocent by any means. He's a hypocrite. I didn't see Vettel going off on Webber, flipping the finger, spewing his issues out into public to try and embarrass his team mate, and thereby embarrassing his own team. Vettel could have easily hoped out of his car at Brazil and taken a swing at him that's how ridiculous Webber was on that day and I wouldn't have had a problem with it. Heck if Senna and past drivers have been that riled up, then having your own team mate almost scuttle your chance at a WDC would certainly qualify. Webber got a taste of his own medicine.

All good points. My thinking on this is that a driver can still be reckless when it comes to tyre management and fuel consumption. Smashing the accelerator, or thrashing your tyres, means you're maybe as a driver not yet fully understanding that the modern day F1 does not = being able to go flat out all the time. You have to pace yourself and choose your moments.

Nico has come out and said that wasn't the case, that he was never asked to conserve fuel or tyres. And if he was then I wouldn't have a problem with them being asked to hold position. But he was disadvantaged either due to Mercedes not fueling Hamilton correctly, or Hamilton not being able to conserve fuel as well as Nico. Thus why should Nico have been punished for that? It would be like coming down hard on Button because he was easy on his tyres, or Kimi in Melbourne. It makes not sense. A driver should be rewarded for such things. But Nico was effectively held back not because of his own fuel worries or tyre issues, but because of his team mates. Now if this was the last race of the season and it mean Hamilton winning the WDC, then by all means do it. But it wasn't. And it didn't make sense to ask him to stay behind Hamilton. And Hamilton new this. It was like he was embarrassed he had been exposed as the teachers pet and getting preferential treatment.

Yes, it could be a case of thrashing the accelerator or tyres, but I don't think that applies in this situation and as previously said, they told both drivers to race hard earlier in the race to try and catch the RBRs.

I can't really remember Lewis having abnormal amounts of fuel issues before, aside from being under-fuelled on occasion,so I don't think it's a case of Lewis being unkind in that area. I would like to see how much difference a driver could actually make in that regard when driving under 'normal' circumstances (ie. not trying to save fuel), I really don't think huge gains/losses could be made. I think Lewis' natural driving style is to be hard on the tyres, but I also think this is an area where he has improved considerably the last few years and as such is able to conserve tyres reasonably well. And I don't think either driver got any calls to try and save tyres, as far as I can remember, however, Lewis has said that he perhaps could have managed his tyres a bit better yesterday. I think ultimately he was hampered by the amount of fuel, though.

You can look at it both ways. I thought they should let Rosberg through too, however, it's not Lewis' fault that they miscalculated how much fuel to put in either. Unfortunately, one of the drivers was going to be disappointed, this time it was Nico.

Edited by pabloh20

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Brawn said that if the roles of Lewis and Nico had been reversed the order would have been the same. I don't know whether I believe that or not but at least Nico can remember that, and he said he would remember the incident.

I think Mercedes' instruction makes at least as much sense as Red Bull's, if not more given the respective performance histories of those teams. I think Nico's decision to follow it also made sense, in light of his situation at Merc compared to Vettel's at Red Bull. Winning three titles probably gives you some flexibility in terms of the misdemeanours you can ultimately get away with in a team. I don't think Nico has the stature in Mercedes or in the sport to get away with disregarding a team order, at least not for a podium. It would hurt his position in the team too much. That's why it was smart of him to obey.

I think it's arguable whether this has hurt Vettel or helped him, which is the same as deciding whether it was a stupid thing to do or not. On the one hand, he can probably get away with it without any serious discipline. On the other, he now has a team mate who doesn't want to play ball whatsoever (I know, Webber never really played ball, but now he'll be even worse). If I were him I'd probably be slightly concerned that next time I tried to pass Webber he's just going to put me in the gravel. These guys are professionals and they wouldn't do that, you say? Senna and Prost, I say. So in one sense Vettel's unprofessional act could have some bad results for his championship in the future, on the other, it has certainly helped him considerably in the championship in comparison to his main rivals, Kimi and Alonso, in the present. So I can understand it. I think if he'd really been thinking, though, he might have found the former view a bit more logical in the long term.

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