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So When Will Pirelli Bring Better Tires ?

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Ok guys let's get back to Tires discussion for a sec.cool22.gif

- Pirelli says they will bring hard compounds from Spain onwards - they are under pressure so that may mean that some of us are correct

in assuming that Pirelli's right now are below parr.

Hoep they last longer than 6 laps and that the new tires can provide more Qualifying laps. After all the fans wants to see more running than hiding/waiting at the pits...

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Ok guys let's get back to Tires discussion for a sec.cool22.gif

- Pirelli says they will bring hard compounds from Spain onwards - they are under pressure so that may mean that some of us are correct

in assuming that Pirelli's right now are below parr.

Hoep they last longer than 6 laps and that the new tires can provide more Qualifying laps. After all the fans wants to see more running than hiding/waiting at the pits...

It's wrong to describe them as below par. That's completely subjective to the standard you use to judge them. Some people use the standard "how long the tyre lasts". Other people are using the standard "how interesting does it make the racing". They are different standards and neither of them are objectively the right way to measure how "good" a tyre is. They are just personal preferences. Nothing wrong with personal preferences, but in the case of what type of tyres you prefer in F1, they are about as meaningful as what your favourite colour is compared to somebody else.

Incidentally, the only objective standard I can think of that we could actually know about, to measure whether a tyre is "below par" or not, would be safety, which obviously isn't an issue here. The other standard would be the intention of the company, which we know about only to a certain extent (through Pirelli press releases). Obviously, if Pirelli intended to make tyres last a full GP, their tyres would currently be below that standard. Pirelli clearly don't appear to want this and they are designing tyres that degrade after x amount of distance. So they are not in any objective sense below par.

The fact they are under pressure and responding has no relationship with whether any of us are correct or not. It just means that pressure exists (mainly from the teams, actually) and Pirelli feel they can't resist it. That doesn't mean the teams are right, just that they are lobbying for what will benefit them the most. The same is true of the fans, they are also "lobbying" for what they want to see based on personal preference. Teams have "personal" preferences just like fans; though they are generally based on more objective criteria. The reverse also follows, even if Pirelli didn't respond to the criticism it wouldn't mean those teams or fans who had no issue with the tyres were right. There is no universal truth on how long a tyre should last.

Should all this actually result in more durable tyres, it'll be worth remembering that the main team doing the lobbying is apparently Red Bull. That makes sense: Red Bull may have potentially the fastest car again, and more consistent and durable tyres reduces the ability of other teams to react in a strategic way to their pace. The fastest car will always win more races in a condition where strategy is reduced and tyres are easily managed. Some people consider that a purer form of racing. I have no idea what the obsession is with "pure" racing or what it actually means (as far as I can tell, the purest form of racing is karting yet journalists and fans who drone on about the importance of purity don't seem to watch those championships, and F1 has never been pure, and has been lot more "impure" than it is now), so I don't really care about the purity argument. Again, personal preference.

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Lots of mindless babblings.

Ok, just a small correction to what George said and to which I agree: it is not Pirelli who "intends" to make the tires behave one way or another. It's the teams and the FIA. Pirelli is only guilty of trying to make tires up to the teams and FIA desires.

I think they are doing a pretty good job. I moght not always like the results but they try, and learn. That can never be bad.

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I don't really want Pirelli to bring harder compounds from Spain onwards. I'm having too much fun right now. Not that there weren't good races in the "harder" part of 2012 (i.e. Texas), but I just like things as they are.

Even if we can define "pure racing," I'm not sure it'd be very compelling in modern reality. The cars are very reliable now, so you don't get some big shocking twist, and the cars cannot break speed records year after year for safety concerns. In the "old days," "pure" races could be filled with surprises because technology was low. There was a lot of experimentation (which would now be simulated before it ever made a track, so everything would converge on the same exact thing), which meant unpredictability. Fuel calculations done by pen and paper were messed up, new engines failed, whatever it was. Likewise, there were unthinkable, incredible speeds for the time, but we have truly hit the limit of speed until we have driver-less cars and fan-less grandstands to avoid killing people. People like to romanticize the automobile and old-time racing, but I'm not entirely sure if that translates into what we'd enjoy today. Maybe it does, for some.

Not that I think harder tire compounds brings us all the way to that point.

Still, I think tire strategy is cerebral and engaging. I'd much rather rely on that to mix things up than on rain or on oddly-timed safety cars, and I recall it being like that pre-Pirelli.

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Ok, just a small correction to what George said and to which I agree: it is not Pirelli who "intends" to make the tires behave one way or another. It's the teams and the FIA. Pirelli is only guilty of trying to make tires up to the teams and FIA desires.

I think they are doing a pretty good job. I moght not always like the results but they try, and learn. That can never be bad.

I feel much the same way about your posts :P

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It's wrong to describe them as below par. That's completely subjective to the standard you use to judge them. Some people use the standard "how long the tyre lasts". Other people are using the standard "how interesting does it make the racing". They are different standards and neither of them are objectively the right way to measure how "good" a tyre is. They are just personal preferences. Nothing wrong with personal preferences, but in the case of what type of tyres you prefer in F1, they are about as meaningful as what your favourite colour is compared to somebody else.

Incidentally, the only objective standard I can think of that we could actually know about, to measure whether a tyre is "below par" or not, would be safety, which obviously isn't an issue here. The other standard would be the intention of the company, which we know about only to a certain extent (through Pirelli press releases). Obviously, if Pirelli intended to make tyres last a full GP, their tyres would currently be below that standard. Pirelli clearly don't appear to want this and they are designing tyres that degrade after x amount of distance. So they are not in any objective sense below par.

The fact they are under pressure and responding has no relationship with whether any of us are correct or not. It just means that pressure exists (mainly from the teams, actually) and Pirelli feel they can't resist it. That doesn't mean the teams are right, just that they are lobbying for what will benefit them the most. The same is true of the fans, they are also "lobbying" for what they want to see based on personal preference. Teams have "personal" preferences just like fans; though they are generally based on more objective criteria. The reverse also follows, even if Pirelli didn't respond to the criticism it wouldn't mean those teams or fans who had no issue with the tyres were right. There is no universal truth on how long a tyre should last.

Should all this actually result in more durable tyres, it'll be worth remembering that the main team doing the lobbying is apparently Red Bull. That makes sense: Red Bull may have potentially the fastest car again, and more consistent and durable tyres reduces the ability of other teams to react in a strategic way to their pace. The fastest car will always win more races in a condition where strategy is reduced and tyres are easily managed. Some people consider that a purer form of racing. I have no idea what the obsession is with "pure" racing or what it actually means (as far as I can tell, the purest form of racing is karting yet journalists and fans who drone on about the importance of purity don't seem to watch those championships, and F1 has never been pure, and has been lot more "impure" than it is now), so I don't really care about the purity argument. Again, personal preference.

Pirellis are BELOW PARR

It's 6-8 laps tires. How can that be above parr?

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I don't really want Pirelli to bring harder compounds from Spain onwards. I'm having too much fun right now. Not that there weren't good races in the "harder" part of 2012 (i.e. Texas), but I just like things as they are.

Even if we can define "pure racing," I'm not sure it'd be very compelling in modern reality. The cars are very reliable now, so you don't get some big shocking twist, and the cars cannot break speed records year after year for safety concerns. In the "old days," "pure" races could be filled with surprises because technology was low. There was a lot of experimentation (which would now be simulated before it ever made a track, so everything would converge on the same exact thing), which meant unpredictability. Fuel calculations done by pen and paper were messed up, new engines failed, whatever it was. Likewise, there were unthinkable, incredible speeds for the time, but we have truly hit the limit of speed until we have driver-less cars and fan-less grandstands to avoid killing people. People like to romanticize the automobile and old-time racing, but I'm not entirely sure if that translates into what we'd enjoy today. Maybe it does, for some.

Not that I think harder tire compounds brings us all the way to that point.

Still, I think tire strategy is cerebral and engaging. I'd much rather rely on that to mix things up than on rain or on oddly-timed safety cars, and I recall it being like that pre-Pirelli.

Pirreli has pressure with a lot of team so they have to move their butts otherwise get kicked out soon.

Whether or not they can provide better tires by using harder ones remains to be seen.

Bottom line, their tires are below parr simply because it can't hold on to the machine's power. A good and above parr tires should last 10-12 laps.

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Good job, otherwise the tyres would not work smile.png

Is that air or nitrogen or custard pressure?

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Pirreli has pressure with a lot of team so they have to move their butts otherwise get kicked out soon.

Whether or not they can provide better tires by using harder ones remains to be seen.

Bottom line, their tires are below parr simply because it can't hold on to the machine's power. A good and above parr tires should last 10-12 laps.

Pirelli always bring tyres to a race that can last at least 10-12 laps, I cannot remember a race where one of the compounds doesn't last that long. I wasn't a fan of the 6-8 laps tyres, as I said earlier and for the reasons I stated earlier, but I don't know if they were asked to produce tyres that lasted that long or not. It may be that they just got it wrong with the compounds, but that's ok, they are allowed to make a mistake every once in a while, it's not the end of the world.

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OMG OMG OMG

It's the end of the world!!! The sky is falling!!!

Someone!!

Save meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!

(Or at least Andres, but only because he's funny like a mascot)

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OMG OMG OMG

It's the end of the world!!! The sky is falling!!!

Someone!!

Save meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!

(Or at least Andres, but only because he's funny like a mascot)

Why thank you!

Wait...:eusa_think:

Anyways, I think the Pirellis are on Parr...their tires last as much as his Williams used to...

*Ba dum tss*

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Is that air or nitrogen or custard pressure?

biggrin.png Well, glad you asked (you will regret this)....thing is that custard is a non-Newtonian fluid, which means under compression gets firmer. If you don't believe me, mix some cornflour in a bowl with water (quite thick)... you can stir it OK with a spoon, but if you try to jab it or pull the spoon out quick it instantly thickens... so a tire filled with this could provide extra support when under pressure...., cornering, etc....

I tell you there's mileage in custard (if you pardon the pun) smile.png

(OK I know its bollocks but work with me here.....) smile.png

Edited by Grabthaw the Hammerslayer

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OMG OMG OMG

It's the end of the world!!! The sky is falling!!!

Someone!!

Save meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!

(Or at least Andres, but only because he's funny like a mascot)

Kids - let this be a lesson to you on the pitfalls of excessive alcohol consumption. The sky is not falling, he will realise that after his blood takes over his alcohol stream again whistling.gifeekout.gif

Edit. I was too drunk to spell alcohol :lol:

Edited by pabloh20

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biggrin.png Well, glad you asked (you will regret this)....thing is that custard is a non-Newtonian fluid, which means under compression gets firmer. If you don't believe me, mix some cornflour in a bowl with water (quite thick)... you can stir it OK with a spoon, but if you try to jab it or pull the spoon out quick it instantly thickens... so a tire filled with this could provide extra support when under pressure...., cornering, etc....

I tell you there's mileage in custard (if you pardon the pun) smile.png

(OK I know its bollocks but work with me here.....) smile.png

I can go further...

What sort of custard? I'd suspect Bird's would be better because it doesn't contain eggs. It is true that a non-Newtonian fluid like custard will get firmer under compression, but you have not addressed the issues of density (unsprung mass) and harmonic vibration (custard's wobbliness). Not to mention you probably would need to design new tyres that won't burst out custard when it hits a pothole (what with custard being incompressible)

Something to ponder....

And yes, I am drunk now..

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I can go further...

What sort of custard? I'd suspect Bird's would be better because it doesn't contain eggs. It is true that a non-Newtonian fluid like custard will get firmer under compression, but you have not addressed the issues of density (unsprung mass) and harmonic vibration (custard's wobbliness). Not to mention you probably would need to design new tyres that won't burst out custard when it hits a pothole (what with custard being incompressible)

Something to ponder....

And yes, I am drunk now..

On custard??? I salute your achievement :lol:

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Pirellis are BELOW PARR

It's 6-8 laps tires. How can that be above parr?

It is neither above nor below a young salmon or the 6th wife of Henry VIII.

Thank me later!

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Kids - let this be a lesson to you on the pitfalls of excessive alcohol consumption. The sky is not falling, he will realise that after his blood takes over his alcohol stream again whistling.gifeekout.gif

Edit. I was too drunk to spell alcohol laugh.png

but I don't drink....and perhaps it is the earth that is swelling thus giving the impression that the sky is falling

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but I don't drink....and perhaps it is the earth that is swelling thus giving the impression that the sky is falling

All alcoholics say that :lol:

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Who set the par? Why was the par set at the level at which it was set? Under what criteria did we establish that we even needed a par?

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They're black, they're round, and everyone has the same ones, so whats the problem?

Build a bridge and get over it.

Shut up and race.

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They're black, they're round, and everyone has the same ones, so whats the problem?

Is it because they are black?

Edited by Quiet One

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