Spanish Grand Prix

[Quiet One 15]

Who the hell were Ferrari drivers talking to on the phone? Luca?

And did anybody notice how "friendly" Stefano was with Kimi? Bet Boullier wanted to go there and punch him in the face! Don't mess with my Kimi! Bitch!

[JHS18 0]

It's simply to say that every race in the world can be framed in any light you want it to be. You can define "real racing" in whatever way you like, including whichever series and excluding whichever series at will. Go ahead, do that, but realize you're creating a massive abstraction in doing so. There's no inherent definition of a motor race that says it can't include conservation, strategy, or periods in which no passing is occurring. There's no inherent definition to say it can't include rules that allow for/disallow for contact, that allow for/disallow for blocking, that allow for/disallow for green-white-checkered or safety cars or alternative fuels or spec cars or engine sizes or DRS or KERS or whatever it is we're discussing.

I think it's just easier to say, "I didn't enjoy that one" than to try to say it falls outside of whatever arbitrary definitions we like to come up with to feel right about our opinions based solely on emotion. It's not to say "every race is the best one ever! I love everything!" That's unrealistic, and silly if you don't actually feel that way (and few do). I simply mean that trying to say "it's not a sport" or "it's not a motor race" or whatever every time it doesn't keep you on the edge of your seat is sort of dishonest. It actually was a motor race, complete with its own attributes, positive, negative, and downright silly, just like any other form of racing has. This "pure" ideal that keeps getting done to death doesn't exist. It's grounded in nothing.

Of course, that, too, is just an opinion. One I've obviously been bottling up for a while, but still an opinion.

Don't just take it from me...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107402

[Quiet One 15]

Er...Red Bull complaints are hardly useful, as they come from the team that has more to lose from this change in the variables.

I do think that Pirelli got the tires all wrong for this race, and that they still need to find ab equilibrium. But that's not the same as saying that this race was a farce or unfair in any way. Unlike most of the other alternatives, this one affects ALL cars and racers. If Kimi could do a normal 3 stopper and Alonso said he could push 90% of the time, the tires might have been way too fragile but still allowed for the drivers to show their talent.

Mass hysteria on the net because, no British driver is in contention aside, what makes this year's races worse than any other? Let's see:

1) Ferrari, Lotus and RBR were the candidates, Marussia and Caterham finished last. That is soooo ludicrous because...?

2) Adrian Neweys' supercar had ONE (1) race in which it didn't go well. Shall we watch poker on TV instead? First, they can't have the perfect car for all races. Second, even if these tires were actually only harming them, then they deserve to be told by all the other teams what they use to say when they win from pole in 9 out of 10 races: "They should make better cars instead of complaining".

3) Merc and McLaren woes are not because of the tires. Merc has been producing the same 'fast qualiftying, crappy racing" cars since their comeback, the only difference is that now that they have Lewis, who can race the whole distance compared to Schumi, it is more clear how much the car loses through the whole race. McLaren has been lost without a clue for quite some time.

4) Ferrari, Lotus, Force India, STR seem to be doing well with these tires. And even RBR is doing good, just not Bahrain good, that's not the end of the world.

5) Barcelona was always a snorefest. With lasting tires, refueling and all the other crap people is asking for it would have been excruciating.

So, yes, they need to make somewhat less degrading tires (or Canada is going to be a 10 stopper race) but F1 is still F1 much to RBR's chagrin. Managing tires and being smart were always been vital components of a great driver, pedal to the metal and may the fatsest car wins is gardly an interesting measure of drivers talents.

[Massa 0]

Don't just take it from me...

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/107402

One of us is missing the other's point, then.

My point isn't that everything is perfect and you should all enjoy everything. No, not at all. You're allowed to be negative and miserable if you want to be, and you're allowed to share that.

My point is that every time we have a good race, we don't need to say "F1 IS THE PINNACLE, IT'S THE BEST THING EVER, NOTHING COULD EVER COMPARE TO THIS! EVERYONE NEEDS TO WATCH THIS!"

Every time we have a bad race, we don't need to say "F1 IS NO LONGER A SPORT, IT'S THE MOST BORING THING OUT THERE, THIS ISN'T MOTOR RACING!"

Yet time and time again, everyone wants to generalize things to extremes for the sake of sounding like they have sound opinions. You could just say "I really enjoyed that race" or "I found that race really boring."

If you're going to make big claims, that the Spanish Grand Prix wasn't a motor race, or that F1 isn't a sport, you better tell me what you definition of a motor race is, and what you definition of a sport is, and what you think falls into that definition. I can guarantee you that anything you say is a motor race, or is a sport, someone else (me) can tell you why it isn't. It's just a goofy argument to make.

Believe it or not, everything you enjoy isn't the best thing ever, and everything you don't enjoy isn't some horrible thing that needs to change. We all want to assert our personal, emotional responses to a race as facts. We all want to say "I enjoyed the race, so F1 is great," and I've done that. We all want to say "I didn't like this race, so F1 is a total farce."

You really can find a race boring while not knee-jerking your way to discrediting the entire thing. You don't need to be an extremist, either in the positive or negative direction. People's claims have absolutely no meaning because they use the most extreme terms to try to prove their points. Every damn thing is "NOT A SPORT" or it's "REAL RACING" or whatever. Those words are so, so empty because they're completely abused by people who watch a race, consider it boring, and freak out over it.

You can hate this race. You can think it was the biggest waste of your time. But that's all it was. A waste of your personal time. Not a waste of the world's. Not a farce. Not so bad that it isn't a sport anymore. Not so bad that the Lord's Highest Definition of "Real Racing" must now exclude it.

I promise you that F1 is still a sport, and that the Spanish Grand Prix was a motor race. It may be a sport you don't enjoy anymore, or regularly, and it may have been a motor race you didn't enjoy. But enjoyment doesn't determine what falls into totally abstract, made up, personalized definitions of "sport" and "motor race." It can't.

They hyperbole and empty rhetoric just make you lose your point. It's something to consider, given your field of choice. I don't mean that in a saucy/mean/I-know-more-than-you way; I don't want my tone to come across like that. I'm just frustrated with "real racing" and "purity" and "farce" and "sport" and "motor race" as they words that we all feel we don't need to define, and can just posit our own opinion and justify them with definitions we never even had. It's careless.

You, and many others, found the race boring. Just find the race boring.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Good job by Kimi during the race. I like to think he was in with a shot, but he didn't seem to have the pace really.

I will say that I am more and more each year, I really look forward to the Barca GP. Maybe because I've visited there, and they happen to be my fav soccer team. But I don't recall seeing full stands like that in ages. And enthusiastic fans too. How many years are we going to be subjected to the empty stadiums in Bahrain, Malaysia and China. And so much so, they tighten the camera angles and limit the aerial shots to hide the fact the circuit is near empty. Good on the Spanish for packing out the race, it looked like and electric atmosphere.

As for the racing, well Merc were horrible. Makes the Trulli trains of years past look good in comparison. I reckon it's harder to make a good qualy car into a good race pace car that it is for a good race pace car, to get better in qualy. At any rate, I knew they were not going to win, but did not expect them to blow out and fade that badly. Will make things interesting, but for now Ferrari look to be the top team. Don't count out RBR though. They have shown they can come back and develop their car. Last year in particular they were looking really rough for easily half the season, then blitzed the end of the year.

[pabloh20 1]

Er...Red Bull complaints are hardly useful, as they come from the team that has more to lose from this change in the variables.

I do think that Pirelli got the tires all wrong for this race, and that they still need to find ab equilibrium. But that's not the same as saying that this race was a farce or unfair in any way. Unlike most of the other alternatives, this one affects ALL cars and racers. If Kimi could do a normal 3 stopper and Alonso said he could push 90% of the time, the tires might have been way too fragile but still allowed for the drivers to show their talent.

Mass hysteria on the net because, no British driver is in contention aside, what makes this year's races worse than any other? Let's see:

1) Ferrari, Lotus and RBR were the candidates, Marussia and Caterham finished last. That is soooo ludicrous because...?

2) Adrian Neweys' supercar had ONE (1) race in which it didn't go well. Shall we watch poker on TV instead? First, they can't have the perfect car for all races. Second, even if these tires were actually only harming them, then they deserve to be told by all the other teams what they use to say when they win from pole in 9 out of 10 races: "They should make better cars instead of complaining".

3) Merc and McLaren woes are not because of the tires. Merc has been producing the same 'fast qualiftying, crappy racing" cars since their comeback, the only difference is that now that they have Lewis, who can race the whole distance compared to Schumi, it is more clear how much the car loses through the whole race. McLaren has been lost without a clue for quite some time.

4) Ferrari, Lotus, Force India, STR seem to be doing well with these tires. And even RBR is doing good, just not Bahrain good, that's not the end of the world.

5) Barcelona was always a snorefest. With lasting tires, refueling and all the other crap people is asking for it would have been excruciating.

So, yes, they need to make somewhat less degrading tires (or Canada is going to be a 10 stopper race) but F1 is still F1 much to RBR's chagrin. Managing tires and being smart were always been vital components of a great driver, pedal to the metal and may the fatsest car wins is gardly an interesting measure of drivers talents.

Geez, I am starting to think the British media have more influence than the British Empire ever had...................

Anyway, I agree in the main, they got the tyres wrong for this race, which is sort of surprising considering how much testing is done here.

I think there might be a correlation between how many times the safety car has been out this season and how much the drivers are able to push on these tyres.

I know what you mean about being smart is a vital component of a driver and managing tyres, the car, or whatever is a skill, yes. However, as I have said before, I prefer that managing tyres lets them race at 100% some of the time before they can burn their tyres out.

There is also absolutely nothing wrong with pedal to the metal racing either and I could throw your point back that just being able to manage tyres is hardly an interesting measure on drivers' talents by itself either, it needs a comparison.

I do think it's better to have a variance rather than everybody driving (or being forced to drive) 'smart' and then there is always the extra opportunity for smugness when 'slow and steady' or 'pedal to the metal' wins the day, depending on which camp you are in

Oh and far be it from me to disagree with Alonso, not that I am suggesting he has an agenda or anything considering the Ferrari looks pretty good on it's tyres, but if he was racing at 90% for some of the time yesterday, it was for about the first 4 corners and that's it

[Massa 0]

Er...Red Bull complaints are hardly useful, as they come from the team that has more to lose from this change in the variables.

I do think that Pirelli got the tires all wrong for this race, and that they still need to find ab equilibrium. But that's not the same as saying that this race was a farce or unfair in any way. Unlike most of the other alternatives, this one affects ALL cars and racers. If Kimi could do a normal 3 stopper and Alonso said he could push 90% of the time, the tires might have been way too fragile but still allowed for the drivers to show their talent.

Mass hysteria on the net because, no British driver is in contention aside, what makes this year's races worse than any other? Let's see:

1) Ferrari, Lotus and RBR were the candidates, Marussia and Caterham finished last. That is soooo ludicrous because...?

2) Adrian Neweys' supercar had ONE (1) race in which it didn't go well. Shall we watch poker on TV instead? First, they can't have the perfect car for all races. Second, even if these tires were actually only harming them, then they deserve to be told by all the other teams what they use to say when they win from pole in 9 out of 10 races: "They should make better cars instead of complaining".

3) Merc and McLaren woes are not because of the tires. Merc has been producing the same 'fast qualiftying, crappy racing" cars since their comeback, the only difference is that now that they have Lewis, who can race the whole distance compared to Schumi, it is more clear how much the car loses through the whole race. McLaren has been lost without a clue for quite some time.

4) Ferrari, Lotus, Force India, STR seem to be doing well with these tires. And even RBR is doing good, just not Bahrain good, that's not the end of the world.

5) Barcelona was always a snorefest. With lasting tires, refueling and all the other crap people is asking for it would have been excruciating.

So, yes, they need to make somewhat less degrading tires (or Canada is going to be a 10 stopper race) but F1 is still F1 much to RBR's chagrin. Managing tires and being smart were always been vital components of a great driver, pedal to the metal and may the fatsest car wins is gardly an interesting measure of drivers talents.

Agreed.

(One could argue the Mercedes has a tire wear issue, but they'd be getting worse tire wear than anyone on any compound if it's truly a camber/loading issue, so it wouldn't matter if the compounds changed).

People don't have to like this kind of racing, of course, or even enjoy every race if they do, in general, like this format (as I, in general, do). I just don't think we've reached "farce" status. Nothing F1 is doing is any worse than what every other racing series does, or what nearly every other major sport does.

[JHS18 0]

One of us is missing the other's point, then.

My point isn't that everything is perfect and you should all enjoy everything. No, not at all. You're allowed to be negative and miserable if you want to be, and you're allowed to share that.

My point is that every time we have a good race, we don't need to say "F1 IS THE PINNACLE, IT'S THE BEST THING EVER, NOTHING COULD EVER COMPARE TO THIS! EVERYONE NEEDS TO WATCH THIS!"

Every time we have a bad race, we don't need to say "F1 IS NO LONGER A SPORT, IT'S THE MOST BORING THING OUT THERE, THIS ISN'T MOTOR RACING!"

Yet time and time again, everyone wants to generalize things to extremes for the sake of sounding like they have sound opinions. You could just say "I really enjoyed that race" or "I found that race really boring."

If you're going to make big claims, that the Spanish Grand Prix wasn't a motor race, or that F1 isn't a sport, you better tell me what you definition of a motor race is, and what you definition of a sport is, and what you think falls into that definition. I can guarantee you that anything you say is a motor race, or is a sport, someone else (me) can tell you why it isn't. It's just a goofy argument to make.

Believe it or not, everything you enjoy isn't the best thing ever, and everything you don't enjoy isn't some horrible thing that needs to change. We all want to assert our personal, emotional responses to a race as facts. We all want to say "I enjoyed the race, so F1 is great," and I've done that. We all want to say "I didn't like this race, so F1 is a total farce."

You really can find a race boring while not knee-jerking your way to discrediting the entire thing. You don't need to be an extremist, either in the positive or negative direction. People's claims have absolutely no meaning because they use the most extreme terms to try to prove their points. Every damn thing is "NOT A SPORT" or it's "REAL RACING" or whatever. Those words are so, so empty because they're completely abused by people who watch a race, consider it boring, and freak out over it.

You can hate this race. You can think it was the biggest waste of your time. But that's all it was. A waste of your personal time. Not a waste of the world's. Not a farce. Not so bad that it isn't a sport anymore. Not so bad that the Lord's Highest Definition of "Real Racing" must now exclude it.

I promise you that F1 is still a sport, and that the Spanish Grand Prix was a motor race. It may be a sport you don't enjoy anymore, or regularly, and it may have been a motor race you didn't enjoy. But enjoyment doesn't determine what falls into totally abstract, made up, personalized definitions of "sport" and "motor race." It can't.

They hyperbole and empty rhetoric just make you lose your point. It's something to consider, given your field of choice. I don't mean that in a saucy/mean/I-know-more-than-you way; I don't want my tone to come across like that. I'm just frustrated with "real racing" and "purity" and "farce" and "sport" and "motor race" as they words that we all feel we don't need to define, and can just posit our own opinion and justify them with definitions we never even had. It's careless.

You, and many others, found the race boring. Just find the race boring.

How is Formula One a motor race any more when the tyres dictate the performance so much?

How can Lotus, for instance, go from being the winners of the first race, to being pretty much nowhere one week later in Malaysia?

How can Red Bull go from winning in the heat of Bahrain, with Ferrari struggling, to Ferrari taking an easy win in the cooler conditions of Barcelona, with Red Bull struggling?

The only consistency has been Mercedes shredding tyres faster than anyone else.

The tyres play too great a part in it now. This inconsistency in the results is not about the merits of the cars, it is about who can make these fragile tyres last the best.

It isn't about racing, it isn't about going flat out. It's about tyre management and who gets lucky on any given weekend, at any given track. How do we know for instance that in a couple of races time it won't be Ferrari struggling again? Is that really how the championship should be? So dependent on tyres?

How is it racing when drivers can't really attack in qualifying because they have to preserve tyres, yet can't attack in the race either because they're doing the same thing? That just makes it a glorified cruise, not a motor race.

It isn't racing when numerous drivers have suffered identical tyre failures this year which wreck their cars when they haven't been doing anything wrong.

You point out flaws with other forms of motorsport - but at least they can race flat out. Do the tyres have such a big impact on the racing in any other form of motorsport? No.

Formula One is more about the show than racing these days. That's my view.

[Quiet One 15]

Geez, I am starting to think the British media have more influence than the British Empire ever had...................

I know my remark sounded too anti British (well, that's an Empire that produced you, which is worst than any dictator the German Empire has produced. I don't think I am exagerating there at all!)

If I sound too anti British is merely because 99% of my F1 world is composed of British journalist from Brtitish sites and British people in British forums. If I decided to read only Spanish media and go to Spanish forums I would propbably rant about them and their stupid excuses for which F1 is wirthless every time Alonso is unable to have a good race. (Yes, If you read Spanish comments after Bahrain, for example, then THAT was the race that was a farce...see a pattern there?)

Anyway, I agree in the main, they got the tyres wrong for this race, which is sort of surprising considering how much testing is done here.

I think there might be a correlation between how many times the safety car has been out this season and how much the drivers are able to push on these tyres.

I know what you mean about being smart is a vital component of a driver and managing tyres, the car, or whatever is a skill, yes. However, as I have said before, I prefer that managing tyres lets them race at 100% some of the time before they can burn their tyres out.

There is also absolutely nothing wrong with pedal to the metal racing either and I could throw your point back that just being able to manage tyres is hardly an interesting measure on drivers' talents by itself either, it needs a comparison.

I do think it's better to have a variance rather than everybody driving (or being forced to drive) 'smart' and then there is always the extra opportunity for smugness when 'slow and steady' or 'pedal to the metal' wins the day, depending on which camp you are in

I think we al fundamentally agree, same with JHS18. We all think that this race was a little bit over the top. And yes, this was not the best race ever, and yes the Pirelli tires could last longer or at least have a broader operating window. I am far from satisfied with the extreme preponderance of tires this year. But, as Eric said, once thing is to think that these are points to improve and another is yelling "It's the end of the world!!!" as seems to be the norm. It bothers me because it is pretty obvious in many comments (no, not yours nor JHS's) that what really bothered them was the fact that Alonso won and that Button/Lewis/Vettel had an abysmal race. I know, those comments shouldn't bother me but (and here comes the British factor), if the tires allowed Button/Lewis to have a good race but ruined the Sauber's, Ferrari's and even Vettel's race there would not be all this bombardment of this being the worst tires ever and the worst races ever.

It also bothers me because, based on that widespread alarmism making everybody think F1 was never this awful, some people with no memory whatsoever start arguing that everything that made races processional in the old days should be brought back. Dear George!

Oh and far be it from me to disagree with Alonso, not that I am suggesting he has an agenda or anything considering the Ferrari looks pretty good on it's tyres, but if he was racing at 90% for some of the time yesterday, it was for about the first 4 corners and that's it

Of course, I also want the fastest driver to win, not the best chess player, Alonso was quite frank and honest about everything this last press conference, he admitted the tires are far from perfect, he said that it makes it difficult for people to know who is actually leading (my main complaint, altough I find it as confusing as it was in the refuelling days, not much worse), he said that this was not his most brilliant race as it was pretty easy once he got past the first pitstops, so hardly he was trying to maintain the status quo just because he won this one.

One more thing: being fast makes you a good driver, but to be more than that you need to be smart. If you are fast but you can't manage the tires, the engine, know when to attack and when to bide your time then you won't win much except if placed on the fastest car. Many of the past champions were not only fast, but smart as well. Schumi was particularly famous for finding some extra trick to do to be even more dominant that he already was.

Press mentioned two things about Alonso in the past races to illustrate those points: at China, I think, he tried to overtake the cars BEFORE the DRS zone, so he could afterwards use the DRS to break away from the other guy. This race, Alonso commented that he observed in the GP2 race that turn 3 was a good place to overtake, so once he realized his move in turn 1 would not work, he saved his KERS for turn 3.

Now, you may say that these are things that everybody else does, but the truth is that you hardly ever hear of tricks like these (again, you used to hear that kind of thing of Schumi and now of Vettel) I guess it's just a matter of tastes, but I'd rather hear about the guy winning becuase he does these things than a guy that is merely fast and i a fast car in which case all you can say about his race is "well, he was fast, he pulled a one sec advantage over everybody else and...that's pretty much it"

I don't know how to express myself so you don't think that I am 100% happy with the current state of F1. I am not. I just don't ike the confusion between mere criticism and outright hysteria.

[Massa 0]

How is Formula One a motor race any more when the tyres dictate the performance so much?

How can Lotus, for instance, go from being the winners of the first race, to being pretty much nowhere one week later in Malaysia?

How can Red Bull go from winning in the heat of Bahrain, with Ferrari struggling, to Ferrari taking an easy win in the cooler conditions of Barcelona, with Red Bull struggling?

The only consistency has been Mercedes shredding tyres faster than anyone else.

The tyres play too great a part in it now. This inconsistency in the results is not about the merits of the cars, it is about who can make these fragile tyres last the best.

It isn't about racing, it isn't about going flat out. It's about tyre management and who gets lucky on any given weekend, at any given track. How do we know for instance that in a couple of races time it won't be Ferrari struggling again? Is that really how the championship should be? So dependent on tyres?

How is it racing when drivers can't really attack in qualifying because they have to preserve tyres, yet can't attack in the race either because they're doing the same thing? That just makes it a glorified cruise, not a motor race.

It isn't racing when numerous drivers have suffered identical tyre failures this year which wreck their cars when they haven't been doing anything wrong.

You point out flaws with other forms of motorsport - but at least they can race flat out. Do the tyres have such a big impact on the racing in any other form of motorsport? No.

Formula One is more about the show than racing these days. That's my view.

It's a motor race because there are cars on a circuit trying to complete a scheduled distance in the fastest amount of time possible given all the constraints.

Every team is using the same tires as everyone else under the same tire rules. The results are changing because different cars have different strengths and different weaknesses. The Lotus is the easiest on the tires, yet has only won once. The tires dictate the course of the race, you're correct. However, everyone is using the same exact tires, so if one car is really all that dominant and supposed to win every weekend, it would, because it's competing under the same circumstances as all the others.

Using Bahrain as an example is silly, too. Ferrari didn't struggle because of tires. Ferrari struggled because Alonso's DRS slot opened and he had to make two extra stops; he was then never able to use it when going through the field again. Massa broke his front wing, so he had little front downforce. The lack of front downforce caused tire wear that would not have happened if Ferrari just changed his front wing.

Do you honestly believe that all other racing is flat-out, all-the-time, all-race? Endurance racing is all about consistency and conservation. Take Daytona and Talladega (gimmicks in themselves) out, and NASCAR's all about finding a rhythm, falling into place, and saving the, oh, what's the word, tires, for the finish. DTM and IndyCar have similar tire regulations to F1, though a bit less extreme. Still, James Hinchcliffe doesn't win St. Petersburg if not for tires; was that not a motor race?

Le Mans isn't a motor race because they have Balance of Performance. Should a championship be decided by Balance of Performance? No other championship is so reliant on Balance of Performance.

NASCAR isn't a motor race because they have Green White Checkered. Should a championship include races decided by "extra laps?" No other championship is so reliant on overtime.

IndyCar isn't a motor race because they have Push-to-Pass. Should a championship be decided by Push-to-Pass? No other championship is so reliant on Push-to-Pass.

We can go on forever, but my point, again, isn't to do that. My point is to make you think:

We each have a personal idea of what we'll put up with (whether it's BoP or long lines or dirty buses or cell phone fees) and what we won't put up with! It's not universal. It can't be put into universal terms of "this is a motor race, this isn't!" It can only be put into terms of "I like this and I don't like that."

You can't say "F1 isn't a motor race" without saying other things aren't motor races.

You can say "I don't enjoy F1" and still say "I do enjoy ALMS."

That's the difference. It's not about the opinion you have (that I don't share). Not at all. It's about putting things in over-arching, absolute hyperboles instead of expressing them as what they are: your own views!

If you don't want tires to play this big of a role, find a series where they don't. If you don't want conservation, find a series where they run shorter races, so they don't have to. Find a series where, in your personal opinion, the good makes you ignore the bad.

SparkNotes: Stop watching F1, because your view is a personal opinion, not a universal fact, as you present it.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Who the hell were Ferrari drivers talking to on the phone? Luca?

And did anybody notice how "friendly" Stefano was with Kimi? Bet Boullier wanted to go there and punch him in the face! Don't mess with my Kimi! Bitch!

That would've been me in disguise

[Quiet One 15]

That would've been me in disguise

That really made me laugh out loud!

[pabloh20 1]

I know my remark sounded too anti British (well, that's an Empire that produced you, which is worst than any dictator the German Empire has produced. I don't think I am exagerating there at all!)

If I sound too anti British is merely because 99% of my F1 world is composed of British journalist from Brtitish sites and British people in British forums. If I decided to read only Spanish media and go to Spanish forums I would propbably rant about them and their stupid excuses for which F1 is wirthless every time Alonso is unable to have a good race. (Yes, If you read Spanish comments after Bahrain, for example, then THAT was the race that was a farce...see a pattern there?)

I am worse than Hitler? Your personality is only exceeded by your charm and beauty. I don't think I need to remind you how little competition your personality has.

I think we al fundamentally agree, same with JHS18. We all think that this race was a little bit over the top. And yes, this was not the best race ever, and yes the Pirelli tires could last longer or at least have a broader operating window. I am far from satisfied with the extreme preponderance of tires this year. But, as Eric said, once thing is to think that these are points to improve and another is yelling "It's the end of the world!!!" as seems to be the norm. It bothers me because it is pretty obvious in many comments (no, not yours nor JHS's) that what really bothered them was the fact that Alonso won and that Button/Lewis/Vettel had an abysmal race. I know, those comments shouldn't bother me but (and here comes the British factor), if the tires allowed Button/Lewis to have a good race but ruined the Sauber's, Ferrari's and even Vettel's race there would not be all this bombardment of this being the worst tires ever and the worst races ever.

It also bothers me because, based on that widespread alarmism making everybody think F1 was never this awful, some people with no memory whatsoever start arguing that everything that made races processional in the old days should be brought back. Dear George!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/

Where is the alarmism? Where is the widespread hysteria? And the BBC is not at the level it used to be anymore.

If I am being honest, I have only heard fairly reasonable comments from British media/personnel, but then maybe I don't go seeking out the alarmists? However, comments from bitter Argentinians, they are just the worst. And the loud mouthed Austrian is not far behind, either. It seems most of the 'hysteria' is coming from that quarter. Then again, I am sure he is no different to how Montezemelo has been when things weren't going his way.

However, to try and say this is coming from British media because Button or Lewis are not winning is stretching reality somewhat. As a nation we are more than used to our sports people not winning, in fact we prefer it that way, we like nothing better than an underdog, generally, unless the sports person is from another country, then we like winners. Don't ask me, I don't make the rules.

Of course, I also want the fastest driver to win, not the best chess player, Alonso was quite frank and honest about everything this last press conference, he admitted the tires are far from perfect, he said that it makes it difficult for people to know who is actually leading (my main complaint, altough I find it as confusing as it was in the refuelling days, not much worse), he said that this was not his most brilliant race as it was pretty easy once he got past the first pitstops, so hardly he was trying to maintain the status quo just because he won this one.

One more thing: being fast makes you a good driver, but to be more than that you need to be smart. If you are fast but you can't manage the tires, the engine, know when to attack and when to bide your time then you won't win much except if placed on the fastest car. Many of the past champions were not only fast, but smart as well. Schumi was particularly famous for finding some extra trick to do to be even more dominant that he already was.

Press mentioned two things about Alonso in the past races to illustrate those points: at China, I think, he tried to overtake the cars BEFORE the DRS zone, so he could afterwards use the DRS to break away from the other guy. This race, Alonso commented that he observed in the GP2 race that turn 3 was a good place to overtake, so once he realized his move in turn 1 would not work, he saved his KERS for turn 3.

Now, you may say that these are things that everybody else does, but the truth is that you hardly ever hear of tricks like these (again, you used to hear that kind of thing of Schumi and now of Vettel) I guess it's just a matter of tastes, but I'd rather hear about the guy winning becuase he does these things than a guy that is merely fast and i a fast car in which case all you can say about his race is "well, he was fast, he pulled a one sec advantage over everybody else and...that's pretty much it"

I don't know how to express myself so you don't think that I am 100% happy with the current state of F1. I am not. I just don't ike the confusion between mere criticism and outright hysteria.

Of course we want drivers to be fast and smart, but at this particular race, I am not convinced they were that fast. It was a brilliant overtake by Alonso at the start, Kimi did a couple of great moves too, as did Vettel, although Alonso's was the best out of all of them, I think. That was pretty much your lot though, but who wouldn't want to see more of those sort of overtakes during a race? There is still some smartness involved, as you alluded to, so I have no problem with it.

It's great that Alonso is doing stuff like that, however, I don't seem to remember you being all that impressed when Schumacher used to do it and let's be honest, he was the master at it. Alonso is a mere pretender, not even the equivalent to a wart on the great man's backside.

Anyway, I don't think there is, hysteria, it is but one race after all. All I will say is the same comment I made earlier in the season when tyres were lasting 6-8 laps - it doesn't really give anybody a chance to be that smart or clever with strategy. I want them to be able to manage tyres and then race flat out at some point, attack the driver in front towards the end of a stint, for example, because they have managed their tyres better earlier in the stint, etc, etc.

By the way, I am British and I don't get as bothered by the British media as you do and I am surrounded by it. If it irks me, as it can do, I ignore it and don't go seeking it out unless I have to. I suggest you do the same

[Quiet One 15]

I am worse than Hitler? Your personality is only exceeded by your charm and beauty. I don't think I need to remind you how little competition your personality has.

Why thank you, handsome!

Wait...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/

Where is the alarmism? Where is the widespread hysteria? And the BBC is not at the level it used to be anymore.

Oh, please! Next thing you'd be telling me that BBC is one of the main media resources! Wait, again...

Anyways, here's the thing: you are British, so naturally BBC has more relevance to you. For me, it is just another F1 site, as I do not usually go to BBC for anything else. Mostly, my perception on the media comes from checking the GPToday news, which I guess are not representative Then there are the other forums (please, no, Eric, I am not going to write 'fora'...d'oh!) I suggest you to go give a read on their GP thread and count how many comments containing nothing but "this is a farce" are there!

So ok, it is a matter of perception. This is the danger with media internatinally. Without the local context, you can get VERY distorted perceptions from a country (I know it happens regarding to mine as well)

If I am being honest, I have only heard fairly reasonable comments from British media/personnel, but then maybe I don't go seeking out the alarmists? However, comments from bitter Argentinians, they are just the worst. And the loud mouthed Austrian is not far behind, either. It seems most of the 'hysteria' is coming from that quarter. Then again, I am sure he is no different to how Montezemelo has been when things weren't going his way.

However, to try and say this is coming from British media because Button or Lewis are not winning is stretching reality somewhat. As a nation we are more than used to our sports people not winning, in fact we prefer it that way, we like nothing better than an underdog, generally, unless the sports person is from another country, then we like winners. Don't ask me, I don't make the rules.

Di Montezemolo whines as much as Mateschitz does, or as Withmarsh does, or as whoever owns Marussia does (Stalin?) He is a whinger and there's no denial in that. Actually, Ferrari also complained in the past about the tires, when they did not worked well for them (last year, for example) but nowhere as close as Mateschitz/Marko are doing now, and that is saying a lot, as I do not consider LdM or SD nice, fair guys at all.

I must disagree with the following paragraph, though. Again, go check the other forums. I know you are quite objective, and this is the most objective forum you'll ever find, except for Brad and myself, perhaps

Of course we want drivers to be fast and smart, but at this particular race, I am not convinced they were that fast. It was a brilliant overtake by Alonso at the start, Kimi did a couple of great moves too, as did Vettel, although Alonso's was the best out of all of them, I think. That was pretty much your lot though, but who wouldn't want to see more of those sort of overtakes during a race? There is still some smartness involved, as you alluded to, so I have no problem with it.

It's great that Alonso is doing stuff like that, however, I don't seem to remember you being all that impressed when Schumacher used to do it and let's be honest, he was the master at it. Alonso is a mere pretender, not even the equivalent to a wart on the great man's backside.

Anyway, I don't think there is, hysteria, it is but one race after all. All I will say is the same comment I made earlier in the season when tyres were lasting 6-8 laps - it doesn't really give anybody a chance to be that smart or clever with strategy. I want them to be able to manage tyres and then race flat out at some point, attack the driver in front towards the end of a stint, for example, because they have managed their tyres better earlier in the stint, etc, etc.

By the way, I am British and I don't get as bothered by the British media as you do and I am surrounded by it. If it irks me, as it can do, I ignore it and don't go seeking it out unless I have to. I suggest you do the same

Of course you didn't hear me make the same comments about Schumi, mostly because of two reasons:

1) At Schumi's peak, when he made me grudgingly admire those sort of things I was not a member of this forum.

2) When Schumi came back, the only trick I saw him doing was the "look-how-I-crash-against-Vergne" trick. I'm quite sure that it is not one you would like me to comment about?

And yes, I want the same as you. As many times in the past, the debate arrives to a point in which both are talking about the same grey square, but you call it "Dark white" whereas I call it "Light black". Conclussion: we are both idiots who cannot say "Grey" correctly.

Wait...

[Rainmaster 7]

Hmm, I agree that the tyres were not ideal here and I hope Pirelli tweak them a little bit to provide the sort of racing/strategy opportunities that Paul mentioned. I still prefer them closer to how they are now than what Pirelli are capable of doing (i.e. Bridgestone spec tyres that last ages). I am not too convinced of the British element of this "hysteria" either. I am not too sure it even exists but then again, I'm strange in that I only visit websites that I actually think talk sense and forums that aren't full of idiots I recommend this to everyone. One thing you could say I suppose is that in a British dominated F1 landscape it's easy to find a British element to any controversy?

Other than that, I'd like to say this thread is a farce and I am never posting in this forum again.

[Quiet One 15]

Hmm, I agree that the tyres were not ideal here and I hope Pirelli tweak them a little bit to provide the sort of racing/strategy opportunities that Paul mentioned. I still prefer them closer to how they are now than what Pirelli are capable of doing (i.e. Bridgestone spec tyres that last ages). I am not too convinced of the British element of this "hysteria" either. I am not too sure it even exists but then again, I'm strange in that I only visit websites that I actually think talk sense and forums that aren't full of idiots I recommend this to everyone. One thing you could say I suppose is that in a British dominated F1 landscape it's easy to find a British element to any controversy?

Other than that, I'd like to say this thread is a farce and I am never posting in this forum again.

I agree. This isn't anymore about who can post faster, everybody trying to make their posts laaaaaaaaaaaaassssssssttttttt loooooooongeeeeeeerrrrrr

What a joke.

[pabloh20 1]

Oh, please! Next thing you'd be telling me that BBC is one of the main media resources! Wait, again...

Anyways, here's the thing: you are British, so naturally BBC has more relevance to you. For me, it is just another F1 site, as I do not usually go to BBC for anything else. Mostly, my perception on the media comes from checking the GPToday news, which I guess are not representative Then there are the other forums (please, no, Eric, I am not going to write 'fora'...d'oh!) I suggest you to go give a read on their GP thread and count how many comments containing nothing but "this is a farce" are there!

So ok, it is a matter of perception. This is the danger with media internatinally. Without the local context, you can get VERY distorted perceptions from a country (I know it happens regarding to mine as well)

Can't say I really read gptoday news unless somebody links to it, so I have no idea if it's representative or not. The odd ones I have read, I would say not. I still think the BBC is probably the best of the bunch with regards to the British media, although sadly they are not as high a standard as they used to be, sensationalism and lazy journalism is very evident these days.

Also, not being a smart arse like yourself, I can barely speak English, let alone any other language, although I am quite adept at swearing in Polish.......long story...........so I don't read any non-English news or F1 reports, unless you kind people translate it for me So I have no practical opinions on Spanish, Argentinian or any other country's media, for that matter. However, I basically go on the theory that they are all probably very similar to the British media in that they vary between ok and dire, just in a different language

Di Montezemolo whines as much as Mateschitz does, or as Withmarsh does, or as whoever owns Marussia does (Stalin?) He is a whinger and there's no denial in that. Actually, Ferrari also complained in the past about the tires, when they did not worked well for them (last year, for example) but nowhere as close as Mateschitz/Marko are doing now, and that is saying a lot, as I do not consider LdM or SD nice, fair guys at all.

I must disagree with the following paragraph, though. Again, go check the other forums. I know you are quite objective, and this is the most objective forum you'll ever find, except for Brad and myself, perhaps

What's the old saying - fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me...........

I have no sympathy if you continually go to these other sites that have these widely distorted views on them, but don't come on here spouting your hysteria bollocks as fact

I agree with George on this, just go on websites and forums that you think talk sense. And for future reference, even if the standards aren't what they once were, if there is no hysteria to be found on the BBC F1 website, that's because there is no hysteria

Of course you didn't hear me make the same comments about Schumi, mostly because of two reasons:

1) At Schumi's peak, when he made me grudgingly admire those sort of things I was not a member of this forum.

2) When Schumi came back, the only trick I saw him doing was the "look-how-I-crash-against-Vergne" trick. I'm quite sure that it is not one you would like me to comment about?

And yes, I want the same as you. As many times in the past, the debate arrives to a point in which both are talking about the same grey square, but you call it "Dark white" whereas I call it "Light black". Conclussion: we are both idiots who cannot say "Grey" correctly.

Wait...

Hey don't be giving me that, you joined around the same time as I did and you were lurking for a while before that, just like me. You were here to witness the great man at his prime, tricks and all, in the latter part of the season when the tyres allowed him to catch up to Alonso......................wait

Edit: I just like arguing with you, by the way, because the 'making up' is so good afterwards.

[pabloh20 1]

The F1 today thread reminded me, so I thought I would post it in here, seems it was during the race - did anybody else hear Vettel's comments about the Merc drivers going too slow on the warm up lap? Not sure why he was complaining, that was pretty much their full race pace they were going at.

Somebody does needs to remind him, though, that if he wants to dictate the warm up lap pace, he has to qualify 1st. It's probably such an unusual situation for him not being at the front, he forgot

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

spouting your hysteria bollocks as fact

I had a sprouting wisteria, once but it had no bollocks...

...oh ...spouting hysteria <slaps head>

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Somebody does needs to remind him, though, that if he wants to dictate the warm up lap pace, he has to qualify 1st. It's probably such an unusual situation for him not being at the front, he forgot

Not this year

[BradSpeedMan 6]

The F1 today thread reminded me, so I thought I would post it in here, seems it was during the race - did anybody else hear Vettel's comments about the Merc drivers going too slow on the warm up lap? Not sure why he was complaining, that was pretty much their full race pace they were going at.

Somebody does needs to remind him, though, that if he wants to dictate the warm up lap pace, he has to qualify 1st. It's probably such an unusual situation for him not being at the front, he forgot

LOL, brilliant!!

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Not this year

You just wait and see, just wait and see

[LabradoRacer 2]

The F1 today thread reminded me, so I thought I would post it in here, seems it was during the race - did anybody else hear Vettel's comments about the Merc drivers going too slow on the warm up lap? Not sure why he was complaining, that was pretty much their full race pace they were going at.

Somebody does needs to remind him, though, that if he wants to dictate the warm up lap pace, he has to qualify 1st. It's probably such an unusual situation for him not being at the front, he forgot

The Mercs were going slowly probably to avoid chewing up the tyres.

[Quiet One 15]

The F1 today thread reminded me, so I thought I would post it in here, seems it was during the race - did anybody else hear Vettel's comments about the Merc drivers going too slow on the warm up lap? Not sure why he was complaining, that was pretty much their full race pace they were going at.

Somebody does needs to remind him, though, that if he wants to dictate the warm up lap pace, he has to qualify 1st. It's probably such an unusual situation for him not being at the front, he forgot

Actually, they WERE really slow, Merc asked them to bunch up the whole field so as not to have their cars stationary in the grid for too long.

I love how he ends up most of his rants with a "Do something!"

[The Shadow 0]

I don't really think the problem lies with the tyres. It's just that due to circumstances in the past (due to amounts of testing etc.) teams were better equipped to design and build a car around a certain group of regulation and standardised equipment.

If data about the tyres was fully quantified and a car was designed to best perform with that as one of several specific design criteria, then we would have a different scenario.

The elephant in the room I think is that the cars racing this year are all losely based upon the designs that surfaced in 2009 and then adapted over the seasons to suit the regulations and the teams failed to recognise that for this year the tyre would dictate the design direction and a fresh design was needed. One that would be kinder to the tyres and not subject it to as much stress as with devices like blown diffusers (please, hot blown diffusers are still the keyword for the whole rear region). Several telling reasons, I assert, is that Newey has mentioned his designs are evolutions of the RB5 and secondly the initial reaction of many team bosses crying foul after Australia that the "design language" of the Lotus (which was the Pirelli test car) gave them an unfair advantage.

Teams did a bad job at interpreting the conditions for this year. They were happy to just merely modify their designs instead of think of new ways to exploit the short life of the tyres.

Now when the drivers mentioned going 80% of full pace all the time, It is just a reflection of a failure to adapt to changing situations. And anyway, call it what you want but drivers never drove at 100% for full race distances during modern F1 races, Exceptions of course were when Schumi had to do 40 quali laps in which race I forget and I haven't checked this up but I believe Webber did it in Monaco 2006 I think. If drivers actually drove their cars to the limit, race fastest laps should be at least 2 seconds off Quali lap time.

Blaming the tyres is like blaming the rain. Everybody has to undergo the same conditions, and those that are brave in making a call and doing something different, even if it goes wrong, at least will have the satisfaction of knowing that they took the reins of their fate in their hand and at least did something instead of crying about it.