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rwgordon

Red Bull Are Using Banned Traction Control? What Do You Think Of The Rumors...

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Supposedly someone has looked at the marks left on the track following Webber and VDG coming together and the conclusion is that they are using a "traction control-type" system.

Sounds like bunk to me. :\

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Whats the source of this? First I've heard of it...is traction control banned?

Any penalty on RBR would spice up the title race! But like I said I haven't heard anything about this at all

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There isn't a single car on that grid that's operating within the rules. I doubt there's a single car on any professional racing grid that is, to be honest. Some get caught, most don't. They like their odds, and the whole sport is figuring out how to cheat. If they're using some type of traction control and no one's noticed, hey, good for them. If not them, someone else is. That's the culture of this sport, or so I am told but those who have worked in it.

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Is it actually possible to tell there's a traction control system from tyre markings? I didn't know that.

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I think the rumour is true. Vettel is not that good and the car was too strong in Canada compared to other top cars.

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Is it actually possible to tell there's a traction control system from tyre markings? I didn't know that.

I finally found a source for this theory: http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/454973/F1_2013__Red_Bull_using_banned_traction_control/

They do not show the picture so I have no idea how plausible it is. But if the markings are as they say, then yes, you could at least suspect some kind of traction control.

Keyword there was "suspect". Because I am just realizing that they are talking about MW vs VDG collision at the hairpin, and the comment during the whole weekend (in ARgentine TV at least) was how bumpy was the whole sector up to the chicane. So it might as well be a lot of bumping?

Also, and this is Craig's field of expertise, I guess that with standard ECU's and whatnot you can't just go installing a TC system without anybody noticing.

One more thing: nobody ever noticed the sound of a TC device in the RBR? I don't know, my knowledge is limited in these things but I still think that whatever makes RBR supercars, is not a TCS.

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I finally found a source for this theory: http://www.gptoday.c...action_control/

They do not show the picture so I have no idea how plausible it is. But if the markings are as they say, then yes, you could at least suspect some kind of traction control.

Keyword there was "suspect". Because I am just realizing that they are talking about MW vs VDG collision at the hairpin, and the comment during the whole weekend (in ARgentine TV at least) was how bumpy was the whole sector up to the chicane. So it might as well be a lot of bumping?

Also, and this is Craig's field of expertise, I guess that with standard ECU's and whatnot you can't just go installing a TC system without anybody noticing.

One more thing: nobody ever noticed the sound of a TC device in the RBR? I don't know, my knowledge is limited in these things but I still think that whatever makes RBR supercars, is not a TCS.

Ah well, it isn't much to go on at the moment. I also find it sort of unlikely for the points you mention. Also because it feels like the RB is already the best car in most aspects and if it had an advantage like TC too, then surely it would be much more dominant than it has been at any time, even Canada.

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I believe the rumours are true but I dont think its true that they are gaining an advantage from it.

MY guess is every team/most teams are using it.

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Don't Mclaren supply ecu's to most if not all teams? Now iam sure they would have picked something up. In terms of policing it, I don't know, if must teams are using it, like said earlier in the post, it would be alot harder to detect instead of the standout 4th pedal in the 1998 Mclaren which was visible, when you looked in the c#ckpit. If they are running it, it might explain sebs results but definatly not webbers, so I doubt they are running one. One play way IMO to tell there not is how bad were marks starts, he has like one decent start all yeah and that was at Monaco.

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There was a lot of talk at Monaco about this amongst the teams and I am surprised that it took so long to come out. Every team stretches the rules to the nth degree, most violators are caught, some aren't. This is a spec car series though there are huge advantages between the rich and poor teams but the top five are pretty much on par in most seasons. There can't be just one team with such a massive advantage as there was for RBR in Canada without some controversy. There just aren't enough qualified staff to keep a lid on the racing rules at the FIA and race scrutiny is policed mostly by volunteers. If there was an illegal part on an RBR then it's gone for now and it would be damned hard to prove it ever existed. That's F1.

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There was a lot of talk at Monaco about this amongst the teams and I am surprised that it took so long to come out. Every team stretches the rules to the nth degree, most violators are caught, some aren't. This is a spec car series though there are huge advantages between the rich and poor teams but the top five are pretty much on par in most seasons. There can't be just one team with such a massive advantage as there was for RBR in Canada without some controversy. There just aren't enough qualified staff to keep a lid on the racing rules at the FIA and race scrutiny is policed mostly by volunteers. If there was an illegal part on an RBR then it's gone for now and it would be damned hard to prove it ever existed. That's F1.

Exactly, but the thing is, you would have picked it up on the onboard footage of vettel's and webbers car, the throttle response would have sound totally unusual compared to other cars. Like mentioned above its to close for such a massive gain to go unnoticed.

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The essence of TC, which is indeed banned these days (as should be power steering and flappy paddles), is that you just put your foot down and the torque and wheel slip is monitored so as to ensure no wheel spin which 1) gets you nowhere fast and 2) brings the back end around to say hello to the front.

That's a pretty basic overview, because the drivers wouldn't actually just plant their right foot; they will still be feathering in the corners when accelerating as this is what they have learnt in all grades of open wheelers on the way up the ladder. The TC just "fixes" any over exuberance. TC tries to equal out the torque at the wheel from side to side. Higher torque on one wheel over the other will generate more force (traction), thus begin the car spinning. TC matches torque and corner balance (cross weight transference) to prevent one wheel getting more force (traction) on the ground than the other.

Without TC, you can do burn outs (in the olden days (a few years ago) you would hear every race from Martin Brundle how the drivers would be turning off the TC as the formed up on the grid so they can spin the wheels and put some rubber down). Without TC, the back end will wiggle a bit, which can be seen on the skid marks, but it will generally be just one sustained arc. Because one wheel is travelling on a longer arc (the outer one), and because there is more weight transfer on the outer wheel, you will get a darker outer skid mark. You can try this experiment at home...it's fun :)

With TC, the wheels, in theory, should not put down any rubber.

If Webber peeled off without laying rubber, then maybe he just has a better right foot, or was pointing straighter (or at least the front wheels were). If he laid rubber, then this would be an indication that he didn't have TC at all, or if he did, it failed miserably.

The engine note would not necessarily change if you had or did not have TC. TC works on the torque at the wheel, not torque at the engine. All the magic is done in the 'box.

McLaren still supplies all the ECU's. One would imagine that it will be harvesting data all the time in respect to engine torque, wheel torque, yaw, and wheel speed. From that data you would be able to map left and right hand side wheel torques to see if they were being maintained equally which would indicate TC. No driver can do that. Or should I say, do that consistently.

A team could still put in a piggy back system of their own to run TC, but the ECU measurements of the above would still occur, and you would be found out.

The fact that Webber always seems to bog down off the line might actually indicate that he prefers to run a high 1st gear. A high 1st gear will prevent wheel spin, but this is offset with the car getting up to speed quickly. I have a high 1st gear in my car, comparative to everyone else on the grid. I can hold 1st gear normally for 200m if I really wanted to (I don't though, as if I did that then I'd be well back). The bonus for me is that I do not wheel spin (TC in a 40-yr old non-TC Formula Ford), and if the guy infront does, then I have the good chance of passing him off the line; at least that is the theory. However, it really does help in wet and damp conditions, where you go from 8th to 3rd in 100m on a quite damp track.

If his 1st gear was higher than wasshisface, then chances are, that his skiddies would look different on the track.

Or perhaps it was just something to do with green aliens.

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Webber and his race starts. Seriously don't they have a simulator for that kind of stuff? He's bad, nee, he's f**king terrible at starts and that was even when TC was in the game.

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I would have thought that he would have left the vrrrm, vrrrm, vrrrm, vrrrm, vrrrm pulse start technique long behind him in Formula First/Vee. I would hope he's doing the vrrrrrrrRRRRRRRRMMMMMMMMMMMMM (drop clutch) go technique.

Using the pulse technique, there is a 50/50 chance your revs are dropping when the lights go out.

Doing the redline technique means you are at full revs and the engine will only drop off for a second as the clutch bites.

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Exactly, but the thing is, you would have picked it up on the onboard footage of vettel's and webbers car, the throttle response would have sound totally unusual compared to other cars. Like mentioned above its to close for such a massive gain to go unnoticed.

The RBR throttle often sounds 'different' especially in seasons past. The discussion in Monaco centred on that. I doubt the team is stupid enough to concoct an illegal process that could be spotted on TV. The ECU holds the answers but who says it can't be 'doctored'? Certainly not the rest of the paddock.

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Good explanation Craig.

What about limited slip differentials? Since they have a bearing in providing torque and resultant traction to each driven wheel. Could the patterns shown be made by a very clever mechanical differential that Red Bull run?

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It still looks to me that it's just a bumpy part of the circuit

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Personally, I believe if RBR were running TC they would have been discovered long ago. There may be other illegal performance-enhancing parts on the car or another stroke of Newey genius. We don't and probably never will know.

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Here's the pic cheating-bastards.jpg

What you make if this?

It's pretty clear it's the bumpy track surface. Look at the huge patch of off coloured asphalt!!! and the dark painted tar lines. The big thick horizontal line just about the red arrows isn't a tyre mark, it's a tar or black paint sealing whatever repair was done to that part of the circuit.

Everyone loves to rag on old Marko at RBR and he mostly deserves it. But honestly I don't recall a team that has been hounded more than they have been. Pretty much daily someone posts they are a team of cheaters, yet are only doing what every other team has done in F1, find the boundaries of the rules and interpret them. Pretty soon the colour blue will be outlawed because RBR cars are blue in tone. Next Vettel's frequent helmet choices will be banned. Then Red Bull the drink will be banned because it'll be deemed an illegal substance.

Benetton cheated in F1 with traction control. McLaren cheated by accepting stolen plans. Toyota also did the same. BAR got caught with a below weight fuel tank, and on that particular issue, many other teams all had the exact same fuel tanks so it's somewhat a grey example.

Why are people not screaming out at how insane this RBR witch hunt is becoming. Constant re-visions of things they already had passed and deemed legal by Charlie Whiting and the inspectors. But when enough teams cry foul, suddenly it's deemed "illegal". I think people need to understand what "illegal" actually means.

Taking fuel filters off the fuel hoses, that's illegal. Flexing wings that pass all scrutineering, and by that definition are legal, are not illegal.

I know many RBR haters who are finally seeing that it's becoming nothing more than a witch hunt. It may not be, but it seems to always point that way when stories like this come out over and over again. Yet when Brawn make a double diffuser, they are geniuses. McLaren with the F-Duct, geniuses. RBR with a wing that passes all tests, yet flexes at a certain speed, or hydraulics to mimic active suspension or whatever they come up with, nope it's just cheating.

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Personally, I believe if RBR were running TC they would have been discovered long ago. There may be other illegal performance-enhancing parts on the car or another stroke of Newey genius. We don't and probably never will know.

Absolutely, if anytime,it would have been 2011,when seb bloody smashed em. Not only that the Redbull were consistently faster than everybody that year,sometimes the cars cars were up by over a second on everyone else in qualifying. So that would be when I think they were running it, if we're at all. Not now when it's much much closer at the pointy end of the grid than 2011.

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I can't believe that something so scandalous would go unnoticed when there's so much drama this year with protests over drivers wearing their collars up or down, or blinking too many times during a GP weekend

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