Red Bull Are Using Banned Traction Control? What Do You Think Of The Rumors...

[Angellica 0]

No way Vettel and webber's car are the same, like Irvine/barrichello's Ferrari with Schumacher, not the same car.

Maybe they try the new things on Vettel's car first, but you know the team need two drivers with good results to win the championship, so I can't imagine for one second they impair Webber's chances by always giving him a sub standard car as you seem to imply. Most of the teams give one car the new parts first and in this case it's Vettel, Alonso gets the best new bits first, Hamilton seemed to get them at McLaren, you can bet Kimi gets them at Lotus. It's standard practice.

[Emmcee 0]

I understand that but webber seemed alot closer to seb in 09-10 now he gets a walloping, and seems to always have the mechanical issues,where I can't even remember the last time seb retired due to mechanical problems. These cars both run the same kers system,yet webber has all the kers issues as seb has none. Wtf is going on with that?

[Angellica 0]

It could be as simple as Seb has mentally broken Mark down a bit. I get what you're saying about the KERS issue with Mark's cars, but I just can't believe it's a purposeful thing, more just unlucky on his part maybe. I could be totally wrong, maybe the team are hugely favouring Seb, but would you stay in a team like that? I know I wouldn't and I can't see Mark accepting it either if he truly believed that of them.

[Emmcee 0]

Well you just have to look at 2010 when mark was fighting for the title,he was mathematically in with a better chance and had better results most of the season, when seb was consistently asked if he would help mark, he didnt, Redbull still backed Vettel instead if webber. Redbull would have looked like clowns if seb didn't pull it of, I do think Vettel is a phenomenal driver, but there comes a time in the title race where you have to back the best driver in your team at that point. 2010 they didn't, they still went with seb. I can understand what your saying about webber staying there, but this is a guy who has spent most of his career retiring from races let alone standing on the podium and winning, there is no way he would leave at his age and point in career when he could still win a couple more gp's

[HandyNZL 1]

I understand that but webber seemed alot closer to seb in 09-10 now he gets a walloping, and seems to always have the mechanical issues,where I can't even remember the last time seb retired due to mechanical problems. These cars both run the same kers system,yet webber has all the kers issues as seb has none. Wtf is going on with that?

Pure dumb luck.

You shouldn't read so much into the situation.

Mark was probably at his peak in 09/10, but Vettel is only now hitting his straps.

It has nothing to do with the car and everything to do with the drivers, sorry to say for your favourite.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I understand that but webber seemed alot closer to seb in 09-10 now he gets a walloping, and seems to always have the mechanical issues,where I can't even remember the last time seb retired due to mechanical problems. These cars both run the same kers system,yet webber has all the kers issues as seb has none. Wtf is going on with that?

So what you are effectively saying is that RBR intentionally disadvantage one of their drivers through fabricated technical gremlins...

[Emmcee 0]

Pure dumb luck.

You shouldn't read so much into the situation.

Mark was probably at his peak in 09/10, but Vettel is only now hitting his straps.

It has nothing to do with the car and everything to do with the drivers, sorry to say for your favourite.

Well maybe, but I tell you what, every teammate he had he beat,so when I heard seb was joining rb I thought mark would beat him to as I put sebs monza win in the toro Rosso just down to the weather that weekend and luck of course. But it's had been awfully hard to swallow watching mark gets his a$$ handed to him every gp by his teammate is the "same" car, can't imagine how mark feels,seb cost mark his first win in 2007 IMO when seb ran up the back of him. British gp 2011 seb was miles ahead on points yet rb still wanted mark to give him yet another win,bs IMO, but like you said maybe he has gone passed his best and is just a halfway driver now. I mean he will win when his car is the best on the day,any other time it's anywhere in the top 10

[KoolMonkey 0]

Give it up with the RBR sabotage theme. The only cool connection with "Sabotage" is The Beastie Boys.

WebRic, I'm an Aussie and I don't believe there is a conspiracy against Webber. I'm not knocking you for supporting him, but rather stating it makes no sense whatsoever for RBR in making him go slower when he's able to do it all by himself. Just look at this starts. They were lousy in Williams too.

Vettel has had more than his share of car breakdowns, and I remind you that his were more critical than Webbers. How many times has Webber failed to finish a race while leading? It's happened to Vettel on several occasions. Thus having a car failure when you're 5th isn't the same as when you have one when coming 1st.

The simple fact is they are both driving Andrian Newey cars. 2005 is all I have to say about that. They are beautiful but can be extremely erractic and fragile. McLaren's 2003 MP4-18 was never raced, so they had to use the 2002 car. He might be a genius but he's not without cases where his cars are prone to failure.

Vettel has had kers issues as well. So guys, enough with this mis-information that Webber has been the only person to suffer or lose results at RBR.

As for 2010, RBR made the right call in the end. That was Webber at his peak and I can't see him back to those levels ever again.

It is not a conspiracy to have two different setups on cars. Guess what!? There are two different drivers with different levels of tweaks, setups and likes to their cars. Thus they will never be the same ever. They however start out the same. As for one team member getting parts before the other, that is standard F1 practice. The team member getting the part is often, the team leader, has better feedback thus validating if the part is effective or not, and can also adapt and doesn't fall to pieces if the car doesn't handle as well.

Some drivers seriously go off the rails if so much as the colour of their seat belts change. Thus their ability to provide feedback, or make up for a mishandling car make it worth that person being the first to get a part. And the reason this also occurs, is there isn't enough time to make 2x of the new parts. Thus one is made and instantly shipped to the GP location for the next race.

Who here seriously thinks that giving a new untested part to Massa will give them better feedback than Alonso? No offense to Massa but he's so hot and cold, the temperature of his morning porridge will determine whether he has 0 spins or 7 during the race.

Nothing in all of this spells conspiracy. It's only how you look at it that determines how it appears.

[Angellica 0]

Give it up with the RBR sabotage theme. The only cool connection with "Sabotage" is The Beastie Boys.

WebRic, I'm an Aussie and I don't believe there is a conspiracy against Webber. I'm not knocking you for supporting him, but rather stating it makes no sense whatsoever for RBR in making him go slower when he's able to do it all by himself. Just look at this starts. They were lousy in Williams too.

Vettel has had more than his share of car breakdowns, and I remind you that his were more critical than Webbers. How many times has Webber failed to finish a race while leading? It's happened to Vettel on several occasions. Thus having a car failure when you're 5th isn't the same as when you have one when coming 1st.

The simple fact is they are both driving Andrian Newey cars. 2005 is all I have to say about that. They are beautiful but can be extremely erractic and fragile. McLaren's 2003 MP4-18 was never raced, so they had to use the 2002 car. He might be a genius but he's not without cases where his cars are prone to failure.

Vettel has had kers issues as well. So guys, enough with this mis-information that Webber has been the only person to suffer or lose results at RBR.

As for 2010, RBR made the right call in the end. That was Webber at his peak and I can't see him back to those levels ever again.

It is not a conspiracy to have two different setups on cars. Guess what!? There are two different drivers with different levels of tweaks, setups and likes to their cars. Thus they will never be the same ever. They however start out the same. As for one team member getting parts before the other, that is standard F1 practice. The team member getting the part is often, the team leader, has better feedback thus validating if the part is effective or not, and can also adapt and doesn't fall to pieces if the car doesn't handle as well.

Some drivers seriously go off the rails if so much as the colour of their seat belts change. Thus their ability to provide feedback, or make up for a mishandling car make it worth that person being the first to get a part. And the reason this also occurs, is there isn't enough time to make 2x of the new parts. Thus one is made and instantly shipped to the GP location for the next race.

Who here seriously thinks that giving a new untested part to Massa will give them better feedback than Alonso? No offense to Massa but he's so hot and cold, the temperature of his morning porridge will determine whether he has 0 spins or 7 during the race.

Nothing in all of this spells conspiracy. It's only how you look at it that determines how it appears.

Again, what I was trying to say, only said much better than I ever could.

[Emmcee 0]

Iam not saying it is a conspiracy but what I meant is that, they give Vettel all the good stuff first, which is only fair, but they have done that from day one. Even before seb starting winning everything. Even when webber was in contention more so than seb in 2010. That's what Meant, how is he supposed to beat someone like senna said "in running shoes and everyone with lead shoes". They have never ever given him a fair and equal shot, which IMO he deserved. But in saying that seb seems to just get better and better, as for the car statement that everyone makes, I think he will be held in a higher reguard if he can win win something else. Monza 2008 was just a fluke, Hamilton the same,but since he has moved to merc,has shown signes of his true pace. Schumacher one in two cars,same with senna,Prost,Mansell,piquet and so on. All the true great have one in more than one machine. Don't get me wrong i don't think it's that at all,but the majority do.

[The Shadow 0]

Iam not saying it is a conspiracy but what I meant is that, they give Vettel all the good stuff first, which is only fair, but they have done that from day one. Even before seb starting winning everything. Even when webber was in contention more so than seb in 2010. That's what Meant, how is he supposed to beat someone like senna said "in running shoes and everyone with lead shoes". They have never ever given him a fair and equal shot, which IMO he deserved. But in saying that seb seems to just get better and better, as for the car statement that everyone makes, I think he will be held in a higher reguard if he can win win something else. Monza 2008 was just a fluke, Hamilton the same,but since he has moved to merc,has shown signes of his true pace. Schumacher one in two cars,same with senna,Prost,Mansell,piquet and so on. All the true great have one in more than one machine. Don't get me wrong i don't think it's that at all,but the majority do.

I am not Vettel's fan, but facts are facts. The kid's done everything his team has asked him (and gone beyond that in many more) to secure the maximum championship points. Credit where credit is due, he is a triple world champion and nobody should try to devalue that fact. Doesn't mean everybody's gotta like him. We are, after all, dealing with a subjective matter here.

Coming to your point about development parts being used on Seb's car rather than Mark's, maybe RB know what we didn't know at the time? At that time we saw MW at the peak of his abilities, but Seb was the young gun with the future promise. The team will always do whatever they can so as to maximise the results by race end every weekend and they probably make decisions like that very carefully, with the benefit of data that we do not and cannot posess. We would probably only find out what happened behind the scenes in maybe 20 years when SV and MW commision their memoirs.

What I'm trying to say is that it's unlikely that RB would ever make any decision lie that just to deliberately shaft Mark for amusement. There must be a reason, and us trying to get to the bottom of it is just being in a refuse creek with only an orally located silver spoon as a propulsion device

[Emmcee 0]

Lol love the description, no your right,maybe I also let the hype of a Grand Prix also get to me. Staying up late only to see webber botch his start or retire and you would have also heard the local commentary talking about a conspiracy against him, so I will probably look at that as an excuse to. Like you said Vettel can't be denied, he has delivered time and time again, but I don't like his attitude either, I used to be the same with Hamilton, but I think Hamilton has slowly grown up in some of the things he says, so I respect lewis a bit more now than I used to. But honestly some of the things that happen to WEBBO really make you scratch your head in comparison to Vettel. Honestly there is light and day between them,It has to affect marks performance to get hammered like that all the time. But In saying that on his day he gives them a hiding, a big one to. To bad it's not that often. Ohh I just realised, webber has got all his wins, before Massa has won again. Now we know how long between drinks it usually is for mark, but I didn't realise its been so long since felipe last won. 2008 man time flies.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I am not Vettel's fan, but facts are facts. The kid's done everything his team has asked him (and gone beyond that in many more) to secure the maximum championship points. Credit where credit is due, he is a triple world champion and nobody should try to devalue that fact. Doesn't mean everybody's gotta like him. We are, after all, dealing with a subjective matter here.

Coming to your point about development parts being used on Seb's car rather than Mark's, maybe RB know what we didn't know at the time? At that time we saw MW at the peak of his abilities, but Seb was the young gun with the future promise. The team will always do whatever they can so as to maximise the results by race end every weekend and they probably make decisions like that very carefully, with the benefit of data that we do not and cannot posess. We would probably only find out what happened behind the scenes in maybe 20 years when SV and MW commision their memoirs.

What I'm trying to say is that it's unlikely that RB would ever make any decision lie that just to deliberately shaft Mark for amusement. There must be a reason, and us trying to get to the bottom of it is just being in a refuse creek with only an orally located silver spoon as a propulsion device

Did'nt Mark dislike the front-wing before it was given to Seb?? I remember reading something like that??

[Emmcee 0]

No, that's what Redbull said but mark later stated he was made to give it up as seb damaged his own one earlier in the weekend.

[KoolMonkey 0]

I recall Mark not liking the wing either.

What annoys me the most about Webber is that he is almost a saboteur himself. He's said publicly so many times he won't help Vettel, will do whatever he can to win etc. The key comes down to him being Mateschitz' boy basically. Without the support of the head honcho, he would have been gone from that team long ago. I just really get that impression Horner would have replaced him sometime back.

It's kind of mind boggling how much he has done to mess things up. Brazil 2012 is possibly the best example. How he kept his seat is only something RBR will know. As far as I'm concerned Webber is on borrowed time, and there will be another occasion at some point in the future that just might be his last "racing incident"

[Angellica 0]

Did'nt Mark dislike the front-wing before it was given to Seb?? I remember reading something like that??

Yes I read that too. I know Seb broke his but I am sure Mark had said something about not liking it or not seeing any benefit or whatever.

[Emmcee 0]

I read on marks official site at the time, he said rb made him give the wing up after seb broke his own, I think the media or rb said that mark said it had no benefit, otherwise I can't see him jumping up and down like he did over the issue, either way someone is lying lol.

[The Shadow 0]

Whether he likes it or not, he still won the race with the old one, so we should give him kudos for that..

Maybe RB feel that he has to be put under pressure to perform well, like a plucky action hero. Downside to that is sometimes the pressure is too much and we see an almost defeated man reflected in his performance. Could go a small way to explaining why RB renews his contracts on a year to year basis. To pressure him with the threat of being replaced, then after a few racing weekends give him reinforcement by signing him on for another year I may be cynical, but there may be correlation to that and him performing well from Catalunya through the German rounds. Perhaps its just confirmation bias.

Or perhaps I'm just talking out of my behind

[The Shadow 0]

On a side note, shouldn't we be having this discussion on the Webber Destination 2014 thread?

[Emmcee 0]

I don't know, he seems to think its up to him contract wise and HE only asked for the 1yr deals as he doesn't know where his motivation will be 12months later, but he has also recently said its up to him weather he stays at rb or not next year. To me that doesn't sound like he has that much control, sounds like he is trying to talk like seb. Only a champion and proven consistent race winner would have that much pull in the team. I just think rb holds onto him ATM because there isn't anybody available at the time that could do a better job. But at the end of this year,it's a different story, rb has option and so does mark abit very little. So it will be quite interesting in that point, but if he doesn't retire he will be number 2 at rb yet again.

[The Shadow 0]

Agree with you WebRic.

If I was in his position and I were to get 1 yr extensions I'd claim it was up to me and not the team. RB won't make a big deal about it because it doesn't make any difference to them whether its the truth or a lie. Well, whatever makes him fell better...

[Emmcee 0]

Well that's right, he needs some mental reprieve as he can only do it very rarely on the circuit.

[Emmcee 0]

I think Redbull hold mark in the same category as the toro rosso drivers, here's what I think has happened. Redbull have tried to sign kimi already, he is staying at lotus, therefore have given mark the choice as they couldn't be fussed what he does as they would just promote vergne or ricciardo, without any remorse or regret. That's just my opinion.

[rwgordon 0]

I think Seb said somewhere that he might want to leave F1 and go do something else right before he signed on to stay with Red Bull another two years... so supposedly that was just posturing. When I hear Webber say, "The decision to stay here is mine to make," I can't tell if he means it or he's been asked to say that to put other drivers on the back foot as far as negotiations go.

[Emmcee 0]

I think seb is keen on a move to Ferrari tbh, but doesn't want to go there while alonso is there, as I think he thinks alonso will eat him up and I do to, alonso is the fastest in f1 IMO but anyway, I think he is looking to join Ferrari when fernando leaves.