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Emmcee

Ricciardo Confirmed?

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Yes I agree. Sv would never have risk Kimi coming in the team and beat him race after race. Lets home ric has guts and will fight vettel on the track despite team orders and won't just roll over.

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Yes I agree. Sv would never have risk Kimi coming in the team and beat him race after race. Lets home ric has guts and will fight vettel on the track despite team orders and won't just roll over.

Yeah I knew his would happen as soon as it was mentioned, I know Vettel wouldn't risk it either. Ricciardo will do anything Redbull tell him to as he will just be happy to be on the podium. That's until he realises he could possible win a race a two, then we will see the real battle I think.

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Yes I agree. Sv would never have risk Kimi coming in the team and beat him race after race. Lets home ric has guts and will fight vettel on the track despite team orders and won't just roll over.

same way Alonso would'nt risk Vettel at Ferrari and vetoed it... same rule applies then

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same way Alonso would'nt risk Vettel at Ferrari and vetoed it... same rule applies then

Ohh yea absolutely, it would be a repeat of Mclaren 2007,Vettel will go to Ferrari, just when alonso leaves, that's why he is staying at Redbull longer than expected IMO.

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Ohh yea absolutely, it would be a repeat of Mclaren 2007,Vettel will go to Ferrari, just when alonso leaves, that's why he is staying at Redbull longer than expected IMO.

I think Vettel is staying at Red Bull because Red Bull is a much better team than Ferrari. Red Bull continually wins the WCC while Ferrari wallows in a weird managerial incompetence.

Or at least I hope that's why. I like to think all drivers want to be in the best situation afforded to them, and Red Bull is that for Vettel. Romantic notions about Ferrari can be very dangerous to a driver's career. They cloud the picture of the best place to be. Schumacher only made it work by building an entirely new team around him, and even then, it took five seasons to get the championship.

Now, for clarity, the best situation is not always the best car today. Mercedes was a better situation for Hamilton than McLaren, even at the time he signed, when McLaren was a winning team and Mercedes was not. There can be factors other than performance that make a situation better than the absolute best car, but those factors are not present, in my opinion, at Ferrari. It would be hard to make the case that Ferrari's working environment was somehow a better "fit" for Vettel that would bring out even more in him, or that Ferrari will overtake Red Bull at the top in a few years. Neither of those things check out with what we know now, and those are the only things you can use to make a decision, obviously.

All that, of course, doesn't address the fact that most top drivers don't want to be partnered with a teammate who can serve as a real distraction, which shouldn't really be surprising at all. These drivers are ultra-competitive; they have something intrinsically making them want to win. They don't require "pushing" from a teammate to be motivated. You wouldn't make it this far into motor racing if you always relied on someone else to motivate you because I guarantee, at some point, these guys all raced against a not-very-good teammate in something. They all have a very strong desire to win, regardless. So, there's not a ton to gain for the lead driver. There's no reason any current number one would want to partner with a teammate who had the potential to beat them. That's not weakness, as some people seem to imply. That's commitment to winning the WDC. The driver who lets Vettel or Alonso partner him, to me, is the one saying, "I do not care about winning the WDC," and for me, that's a worse trait in a driver from a racing standpoint than simply rejecting a teammate who jeopardizes your chance.

You need drivers who want to win to have good racing; watch NASCAR if you'd like to see what happens when everyone is content with a "good points day." It's not very exciting, and I say that as someone who likes stock cars and oval racing. The sport has fallen apart because drivers who want to win are "controversial" and roundly booed, while guys who just drive around in fifth every weekend get the championships. You need the desire to win, and not wanting a teammate who prevents you from winning is part of that desire. If that's a consequence, so be it; I like seeing the five WDCs over five constructors as much as I would like to see two teammates battle. We are in a time, in F1, where so many different constructors can win races that it is more fun to see the drivers spread out. If this were years ago and only two teams could win then, yes, I'd like to see the best drivers concentrate on those two teams so that there would be battles. We're fortunate to not need that.

Anyway, good for Ricciardo if he moves up. I have little to say about him because I guess he hasn't stood out to me as much as Vergne. More experienced, though, and probably steadier. It really is a "we'll see" situation with him.

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Confirmation bias. If Ricci is indeed confirmed at Red Bull it's because "Vettel vetoed Raikkonen". If Raikkonen had been confirmed the conclusion would have been "Vettel didn't have the power to veto Raikkonen but surely tried".

Edit: Plus that there post above.

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A beautiful post, Eric. Well put.

George, you are wrong, as usual.:D

If Kimi had signed it would have been "Because it was agreed that he will be Vettel's number 2. Basically in charge of taking care of the second car, should Vettel need it, and as an organ bank for Seb"

Now, every time Vettel wins over whoever is his number two is because the team sabotaged the other guy. Whereas when the other guy beats Seb it will be an irrefutable proof that this guy is the best and Seb is overrated, even if it only happens once in a blue moon.

That said, Vettel is overrated.

There.

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A beautiful post, Eric. Well put.

George, you are wrong, as usual.biggrin.png

If Kimi had signed it would have been "Because it was agreed that he will be Vettel's number 2. Basically in charge of taking care of the second car, should Vettel need it, and as an organ bank for Seb"

Now, every time Vettel wins over whoever is his number two is because the team sabotaged the other guy. Whereas when the other guy beats Seb it will be an irrefutable proof that this guy is the best and Seb is overrated, even if it only happens once in a blue moon.

That said, Vettel is overrated.

There.

Bah, Alonso is overrated, still no championship for Ferrari for what...4 years...

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Bah, Alonso is overrated, still no championship for Ferrari for what...4 years...

Yes he is over rated I believe. And Alonso would not fear vettel as a team mate at all IMO.

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Sorry, I had the wrong quotation. I meant vettel

Is over rated not Alonso.

Alonso is the best driver in formula one, his last 4yrs proove it, to consistantly battle in the top 3 with that car which is probably at its best with felipe behind the wheel, alonso just makes that car even better. At this stage in schumis and alonso's Ferrari careers. Not much if anything is seperating them at this stage IMO.

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Sorry, I had the wrong quotation. I meant vettel

Is over rated not Alonso.

Strange that having too good a car can be a problem... for some. I reckon Vettel and friends see nothing but awesomeness in the situation.

Anyway, I can say that when I followed F1, Vettel was not at all overrated. He was a gifted driver. Very, very fast. Only a sigh behind Kimi, the best there was in this respect.

But, yeah, the car.

A few weeks after last X-mas, some of my F1 friends invited me to a culinary trip through the Low Countries (anyone ever eaten a proper Bossche bol?). Over the days we had dinner with many motorsport enthusiasts, interesting strangers met through mutual acquaintances. One of these was a Brazilian woman that related how last year's GP was lived from the paddock, the incredulity at Vettel's blunder early on, the mounting embarrassment when driver after driver let Vettel pass, the impossible uneasiness when Vettel finally got off the car bragging about his passing skills.

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Let's see what was that Red Bull couldn't possibly offer to Kimi that wasn't better than his present situation at Lotus...

1) I doubt it was about money. I have this weird feeling that Red Bull might, just might be able to pay him more (and on time)

2) You think Kimi is convinced that next year's Lotus will be a million times better than the Red Bull? Mmmh...nope...

3) Kimi is os in love with Lotus atmosphere that Red Bull would seem too constrictive? Don't think so, both seem like the decontractée kind of workplaces Kimi likes better.

4) So what about he and Vettel and number ones and number twos? :P

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Kimi's manager has confirmed to Finnish Press (Turun Sanomat) that their negotations with Red Bull had ended already a while back and no agreement was reached, so this pretty much confirms Red Bull are going with Ricciardo.

http://www.ts.fi/moo...ry Red Bullille

Replying to myself like a madman... I have to say I find it rather curious that Kimi's management voluntarily reveals that they are not in the running for Red Bull anymore. It would seem to indicate that they have a deal with a team already as well, otherwise they certainly would still use possible Red Bull negotiations as a tool to extract a better deal.

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IMHO, if RB wants a driver, they get the driver, whoever it is. They have the financial means and the car to attrack who they want. If Kimi is not going to RB, it is because Vettel has opposed his veto. He is the king at RB; why would he risk being overthrown? most of us know he would be msn-wink.gif

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I imagine Kimi was concerned about playing second fiddle to Vettel, that would be fairly natural even with assurances from Red Bull that it wouldn't be the case. No doubt it would be a large factor in his decision, especially after his experience in another team where he wasn't considered the outright number 1 (that would be Ferrari). At this stage in his career I don't find it surprising that it might have been enough to put him off, regardless of any other benefits Red Bull might offer.

Still, that's all assuming it was Kimi's decision. By which I don't mean it was Vettel's, but that Red Bull's management preferred Ricci for not completely unreasonable grounds. They won how many titles with the combination of a great driver or almost great driver (that'll be Vettel) and a driver not on his level (Webber). You can see the sense in not changing that line-up. What is confusing is that although you wouldn't rate Ricci on Raikkonen's level, it remains to be seen whether he is even on Webber's, in my opinion. That Raikkonen is such a stronger candidate makes me think the decision was probably more on Raikkonen's side than RB's, and that's probably what Kimi meant when he said weeks ago "some people will think the decision is stupid".

If it was true that Red Bull could get any driver they want, how could it also be true that Vettel can stop Red Bull getting the driver they want?

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Personnaly, I think vettel is very happy with the decision, which is his own in large part IMO. He really is the king there and it would be difficult for anyone at RB to go against his will.

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I think the decision (whoever made it) was the most logical one (if all this ends up being merely a rumor and Kimi signs for Red Bull, feel free to tell me to eat my words)

Kimi to RB made no sense from Vettel's point of view, from Kimi point of view nor Red Bull's.

Seb needs a wingman, not a competitor. Kimi needs freedom to unleash his talents, not a support role. Red Bull needs a focused team, not a catfight between prima donnas. And before somebody tell me that Kimi (or Vettel) would not do that, please understand that I say it in a figurative sense, and even if Kimi is not a melodramatic guy, he certainly has his ways to express his disagreements (actually, he can be worse than that but I don't wanna go there :D)

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I think the decision (whoever made it) was the most logical one (if all this ends up being merely a rumor and Kimi signs for Red Bull, feel free to tell me to eat my words)

Kimi to RB made no sense from Vettel's point of view, from Kimi point of view nor Red Bull's.

Seb needs a wingman, not a competitor. Kimi needs freedom to unleash his talents, not a support role. Red Bull needs a focused team, not a catfight between prima donnas. And before somebody tell me that Kimi (or Vettel) would not do that, please understand that I say it in a figurative sense, and even if Kimi is not a melodramatic guy, he certainly has his ways to express his disagreements (actually, he can be worse than that but I don't wanna go there biggrin.png)

You can really be on song when you take the bloody time!

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Kimi to RB made no sense from Vettel's point of view, from Kimi point of view nor Red Bull's.

Red Bull really considered having Kimi over and there were true négociations between parties (so it made sense to RB, but something ot someone had them change their mind - you know who!).

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You can really be on song when you take the bloody time!

Oh the Kimisteric is back! I won't bother reading whatever you posted but I am sure it was a bunch of lies and crap!

There!

:eusa_think:

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