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Emmcee

Vettel Or Alonso, Who Is Better?

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I dont think the number of titles is the best argument to use, if the rules hadnt changed for '09, and stayed the same for another 5 years, Felipe Massa might have ended up a triple-world champion.

Is Jacques Villeneuve better than Stirling Moss cos he has a world title & Moss doesn't?

Don't get me wrong I've finally acknowledged in the last year or 2 that Vettel really is special. But I don't think the argument "he's better cos he has 4 titles to Alonso's 2" has much weight. Alonso hasn't been driving a Newey-designed RBR for the last 5 years.

Next year Alonso has a formidable team-mate, this will give a better indication of how great (or not?) he really is.

And if RBR get it wrong and Vettel is scrapping just to get on the podium, perhaps he'll keep crashing and show us all that he's not such a legend after all? We'll see. I can't wait! But number of titles and wins doesnt do it for me.

Yep, couldn't agree more, well put.

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It's all a bit of a daft argument really as if you are looking at "the complete package" you would need to take the car into consideration.

e.g. I would argue Massa in a Red Bull could probably match/beat Vettel in a Ferrari (and I am not a fan of Massa, but you get my point). If Massa had been there four years running would we be saying the same thing about him?

Does complete package also include their behaviour/fan & media friendliness? In which case some drivers plummet off the list and others shoot up.

Hmmm is all I will say! :)

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It's all a bit of a daft argument really as if you are looking at "the complete package" you would need to take the car into consideration.

e.g. I would argue Massa in a Red Bull could probably match/beat Vettel in a Ferrari (and I am not a fan of Massa, but you get my point). If Massa had been there four years running would we be saying the same thing about him?

Does complete package also include their behaviour/fan & media friendliness? In which case some drivers plummet off the list and others shoot up.

Hmmm is all I will say! :)

Talk about dissecting a theory, geez. So do we have to take what type of fuel there using into consideration aswell and hair styles?

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If we're talking hairstyles then Max Chilton's older brother wins it hands down!! Probably the closest Max will ever get to winning in F1! tongue.png

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If we're talking hairstyles then Max Chilton's older brother wins it hands down!! Probably the closest Max will ever get to winning in F1! tongue.png

Haha, I had to go Look :

416838.jpg

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Like Insider, I too hear Alonso is generally considered ahead of the rest among the F1 intelligentsia.

For myself, I say Vettel. I've been going over the last few seasons I've missed in anticipation of 2014. Vettel is, by numbers, the best driver in F1 history. No doubts. No questions. No maybes. The man is lightyears ahead of every other driver ever in the competition.

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Yeah but there is so much to take into account if your making the conclusion he is the best ever.

1- different time now, more points awarded and more Grand Prix in a season

2- cars are a hell of alot more reliable these days, so win streaks and massive points margins are more easily obtained.

3- we now have kers and drs which help overtaking and overall lap times in qualifying.

4- cars nowadays refuse to leave pitlane in fear of serve tyre degradation in the race, allows for a slightly better chance of a victory. I know some points are clutching at straws, but that seems to be the difference and it seems to snowball into each statistic.

5- I think vettel's era isn't as competitive as say schumis when he started. Few may argue and say this current field is more challenging with multiple champions in alonso,Raikkonen,button and Hamilton. But when Schumi started it was Senna,Prost,Piquet,Mansell and if you want it go further you could also say Alesi,Berger,Patrese and so on. I hold this group of drivers/champions higher than today's field. Why you may ask? Well in those days there wasn't the aids on the cars like today,manual gearbox without paddle shifters, the old sequential shift stick, same race distances as today but without the aids and downforce of today. Yeah today's cars are quicker, but do you think it would be harder to do 78 laps around Monaco now or 78laps around Monaco 20yrs ago, basically one handed and your other hand is to busy consistanly shifting gears, while you correct oversteer with one hand.

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lol drivers in yesteryear didn't have aids biggrin.png

Anyway yeah webric your points above reiterate that comparisons across different decades are largely pointless. If we put today's 22 drivers in 1980's f1 cars and let them do a 50-lap race at Spa, with manual shifting & all the rest, maybe Jean Eric Vergne would blow everyone away, who knows! All we can say is that with today's cars and today's set of regulations, Vettel & Red Bull as a package are the best.

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lol drivers in yesteryear didn't have aids biggrin.png

Anyway yeah webric your points above reiterate that comparisons across different decades are largely pointless. If we put today's 22 drivers in 1980's f1 cars and let them do a 50-lap race at Spa, with manual shifting & all the rest, maybe Jean Eric Vergne would blow everyone away, who knows! All we can say is that with today's cars and today's set of regulations, Vettel & Red Bull as a package are the best.

Of course they are, my points were to proove exactly just that, it's impossible to compare different drivers from different eras, but we can draw a similar comparison,accurate or not, it's the best we can come up with. I see alot of Senna in Vettel, but does that mean he is in the same tier as Senna? I think not, well not ATM anyway. But like we have both mentioned,it's not a fair comparison. Vettel is this era's Schumi/Senna or whoever you fancy. I still think its unfair to class Vettel as the best so soon, it's sort of disrespecting the legends of this sport, but he has a serious chance of becoming the greatest. One thing that would really help this happen for him, switch teams and do it again like some of the greats before him. I know it's unfair to say that after such dominating seasons from him but that's just how it is.

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I very much agree, good point. All the greats have shown their greatness at multiple teams, and when the odds were not really in their favour.

The media (even though i've never, ever heard Seb say it himself or even hint at it) are always saying how Seb is a massive fan of historical f1 and wants to break all records, so if he wants his place in the history books then surely he should try a new challenge in a different team in a year or two. Ferrari being the obvious choice for me.

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I very much agree, good point. All the greats have shown their greatness at multiple teams, and when the odds were not really in their favour.

The media (even though i've never, ever heard Seb say it himself or even hint at it) are always saying how Seb is a massive fan of historical f1 and wants to break all records, so if he wants his place in the history books then surely he should try a new challenge in a different team in a year or two. Ferrari being the obvious choice for me.

Yeah that's right, some people may disagree, well fair enough but it's just how it is, and like you just said he has an obsession to break as many records as possible. So I see him trying the whole Schumi build Ferrari thing again. He says himself he isn't on the level Schumi was, that's a close one IMO but he obviously feels that way because Schumi won in more than one type of car consistantly.

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I dont even know where this idea comes from though that he really wants to break all records.

In fact, quite the opposite. Recently when he was asked about equalling Ascari's records, he said when he's racing he doesnt think about any of these things, but one day when he's old it will be nice to look back on. Confused.

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I dont even know where this idea comes from though that he really wants to break all records.

In fact, quite the opposite. Recently when he was asked about equalling Ascari's records, he said when he's racing he doesnt think about any of these things, but one day when he's old it will be nice to look back on. Confused.

Of course he wants to smash all the records, he just doesn't want to sound c0cky by saying he wants to smash them. Whats the point of being in formula one if you don't want to be the best ever?

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So I see him trying the whole Schumi build Ferrari thing again.

But Schumi dragged a bad Ferrari into championship contention, Vettel walked into a RBR team who had already built one of the fastest cars on the '09 grid - so for me he needs to move teams, sooner the better!

Of course he wants to smash all the records, he just doesn't want to sound c0cky by saying he wants to smash them. Whats the point of being in formula one if you don't want to be the best ever?

But the media can't just be making an assumption, cos they always say it about Seb and nobody else, I don't know about other broadcasters but the BBC commentators are always referring to it, yet I've never once heard Seb make any mention of it at all.

Looks like it's just you and me on the forums today!! Could be this way until March lol.

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That hit the nail on the head, Vettel moved into a well developed Redbull that was winning from the word go. Schumis 96 Ferrari was a dog and still dragged it by the scruff of its neck to 3 gp wins in that year, Schumi was the man to beat for over 10yrs, wether the car was good or not, whether he was champion or not, he was the one to beat if you wanted the title. Vettel is bloody good dont get me wrong, but he still has alot more to achieve before being permenatly placed in the top class.

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They compete not for my adoration or for my opinion. They compete to win the World Drivers' Championship. Vettel's winning it, year after year after year. He'll stop winning it one day, of course. They all do. But for now, he's the only one accomplishing the actual goal of this competition.

I offer this:

To think that the champion is not the best driver is to acknowledge that the driver is not the largest factor in the championship.

To acknowledge that the driver is not the largest factor in the championship negates the entire purpose of figuring out who the best one is.

But I'm happy to see people talking in the winter, so go on. :)

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He is the best ATM moment, that's down to his driving AND an unbeatable car, now to sit here and say it ALL down to his driving and partially the car, is a joke itself. You need someone to drive it to win in it. So therefore he wouldn't have won anything if it wasn't for the car. It's just better drivers just drive these better cars even better than the rest. Does this mean I think Vettel is just milking the Redbull, certainly not, he is an unbeleivable driver. But I still rate alonso higher, simply on his out right consistancy for so long, if seb keeps going the way he is, he will most definatly pass alonso, but he will pass everyone else aswell, so it remains to be seen.

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If RBR had had only one driver this year, they would have still won the constructor's championship with Vettel's points alone.

Vettel is not only the best in F1 history. If mad scientists were to take all other drivers from the 40s on and smashed them together into a single franken-mega-driver, Vettel would still win by a landslide without even leaving the pitlane. Numbers don't lie.

That's what we are being sold.

I'm looking forward to Vettel's utter, complete, and total dominance for decades to come. Anything less makes no sense.

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How is this possible yet though? Wins,poles and championships don't dictate a drivers position on the list of all time greats. I don't doubt he will be the best ever, certainly looks that way ATM. But to say that now and he has basically spent his whole career in the one team, that has had the best car by far for some time now, a slap in the face to hardcore legends like Senna, Prost and Mansell. Vettel might not even be capable of driving there cars on the limit, therefor puts a whole other perspective on things. Lewis Hamilton drove Senna car and said he couldn't even imagine how it would be possibly to do a full race distance on the limits in these older cars, he said it was terrifying. But you cant compare different eras. This era definatly belongs to Vettel, but it's a tad bit unfair to claim he is the best ever yet. He might leave Redbull and join Ferrari like everyone thinks he will and not win hardly any IF any races at all, though it sounds very slim, it could be possible, then where would that put Vettel? Still the best ever? I don't think so.

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I tolerated Vettel when he drove his BMW to 6th in the USGP, but since his win at Monza, it has easily been more about his car than anything else...and that's where I get hung up.

When Schumi was around, I thought he was the best driver solely based on statistics and his Bridgestones. But then Alonso beat him fair and square and he did NOT make it look easy. Thus, Alonso has been rated an all-time great by my count. He dethroned the most statistically successful driver in the history of the sport, barely.

Enter Vettel. He's not new to the sport, and he's actually been around longer than Alonso had been when he first started when Minardi. Most of the time, his performances are utter dominance and that's with a field full of WDC's. But everyone comparing different eras to others forgets how long Vettel has been around. He has ONLY driven through the V8 era with an emphasis on aero. He's learned what he has needed to in order to master this generation of regulations.

Alonso and the rest of the WDC's have driven through multiple shifts in car/chassis combos. This is where Vettel's claim as the best ever loses steam, but gains credibility when we call him the best of his era. Sure, he did well with V8's, but next year will be different. We could see someone even YOUNGER than Vettel surprising us. Or, if he continues to trounce his rivals, then he will be worth a bit more in my eyes.

F1 is about relativity. I have always felt most drivers need to prove themselves within F1 in order for me to consider them successful. Whether that be down to statistics or racecraft, it's got to be something. The ONLY thing that impresses me about Vettel is his speed. It's only his gaps that allow him to manage races. You could argue a big gap is the best way to manage a race, but it's definitely easier to win it if you have that luxury. The rest of the current crop of champions have not won their WDC's as easily as Vettel and I think that's why many can't take him as seriously as his stats say we should.

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I tolerated Vettel when he drove his BMW to 6th in the USGP, but since his win at Monza, it has easily been more about his car than anything else...and that's where I get hung up.

When Schumi was around, I thought he was the best driver solely based on statistics and his Bridgestones. But then Alonso beat him fair and square and he did NOT make it look easy. Thus, Alonso has been rated an all-time great by my count. He dethroned the most statistically successful driver in the history of the sport, barely.

Enter Vettel. He's not new to the sport, and he's actually been around longer than Alonso had been when he first started when Minardi. Most of the time, his performances are utter dominance and that's with a field full of WDC's. But everyone comparing different eras to others forgets how long Vettel has been around. He has ONLY driven through the V8 era with an emphasis on aero. He's learned what he has needed to in order to master this generation of regulations.

Alonso and the rest of the WDC's have driven through multiple shifts in car/chassis combos. This is where Vettel's claim as the best ever loses steam, but gains credibility when we call him the best of his era. Sure, he did well with V8's, but next year will be different. We could see someone even YOUNGER than Vettel surprising us. Or, if he continues to trounce his rivals, then he will be worth a bit more in my eyes.

F1 is about relativity. I have always felt most drivers need to prove themselves within F1 in order for me to consider them successful. Whether that be down to statistics or racecraft, it's got to be something. The ONLY thing that impresses me about Vettel is his speed. It's only his gaps that allow him to manage races. You could argue a big gap is the best way to manage a race, but it's definitely easier to win it if you have that luxury. The rest of the current crop of champions have not won their WDC's as easily as Vettel and I think that's why many can't take him as seriously as his stats say we should.

Nice post

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I tolerated Vettel when he drove his BMW to 6th in the USGP, but since his win at Monza, it has easily been more about his car than anything else...and that's where I get hung up.

When Schumi was around, I thought he was the best driver solely based on statistics and his Bridgestones. But then Alonso beat him fair and square and he did NOT make it look easy. Thus, Alonso has been rated an all-time great by my count. He dethroned the most statistically successful driver in the history of the sport, barely.

Enter Vettel. He's not new to the sport, and he's actually been around longer than Alonso had been when he first started when Minardi. Most of the time, his performances are utter dominance and that's with a field full of WDC's. But everyone comparing different eras to others forgets how long Vettel has been around. He has ONLY driven through the V8 era with an emphasis on aero. He's learned what he has needed to in order to master this generation of regulations.

Alonso and the rest of the WDC's have driven through multiple shifts in car/chassis combos. This is where Vettel's claim as the best ever loses steam, but gains credibility when we call him the best of his era. Sure, he did well with V8's, but next year will be different. We could see someone even YOUNGER than Vettel surprising us. Or, if he continues to trounce his rivals, then he will be worth a bit more in my eyes.

F1 is about relativity. I have always felt most drivers need to prove themselves within F1 in order for me to consider them successful. Whether that be down to statistics or racecraft, it's got to be something. The ONLY thing that impresses me about Vettel is his speed. It's only his gaps that allow him to manage races. You could argue a big gap is the best way to manage a race, but it's definitely easier to win it if you have that luxury. The rest of the current crop of champions have not won their WDC's as easily as Vettel and I think that's why many can't take him as seriously as his stats say we should.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

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Nice post

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Thanks guys. Alonso might not be the best the sport has ever seen, but he's the last (and arguably, the best) of the multi-generation (Massa, Raikkonen, Button, and Rosberg are on equal terms in my eyes) drivers who have seen the sport change. These guys have truly endured. I think we can all agree that this new generation (Kyvat, Magnussen, Ricciardo, etc) of drivers have so much to live up to. Where F1 goes over the next few years will be vital for its credibility.

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Thanks guys. Alonso might not be the best the sport has ever seen, but he's the last (and arguably, the best) of the multi-generation (Massa, Raikkonen, Button, and Rosberg are on equal terms in my eyes) drivers who have seen the sport change. These guys have truly endured. I think we can all agree that this new generation (Kyvat, Magnussen, Ricciardo, etc) of drivers have so much to live up to. Where F1 goes over the next few years will be vital for its credibility.

I wonder. I too saw Alonso beat Schumacher but the man had his eight title in the bag before a breakdown in Japan.

But I will say this for Schumacher. He was great once and then favoritism turned into a joke. In my opinion, he was never able to function properly after Barrichello, that is, after the team stopped blatantly fixing races for him. Not the first driver (or last) to "crash" his talent that way.

Anyway, if Vettel sinks, which by his standards is anything less than to demolish everyone else, what would that say about the last four seasons?

And even if RBR produces a lemon, Vettel must drive it way beyond its potential or else this will only provide further confirmation of the depth of the fraud that led me to stop following the TV sitcom known as F1 almost half a decade back.

No, I'm betting on Vettel coming through true. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother with the competition. There is a limit to how much fiction, how much suspension of belief is demanded of the fans.

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