"hamilton Not In Same League As Top 2"

[Emmcee 0]

Mark webber has started already started to stir the pot with this latest statement.

http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/473982/Hamilton_not_in_the_same_class_as_top_two/

[KoolMonkey 0]

For once I agree with him. However the "top 2" is at the moment really the top 3. You have to say that it's Vettel, Alonso and Kimi at the front of the pack. Then Hamilton, Nico, Button, followed by Hulk, with varying degrees of options after this.

But I expect we'll get years of Webber's opinions aka. like our very own version of a retired JV. Oh joy.

[Emmcee 0]

For once I agree with him. However the "top 3" is a the moment really 3. You have to say that It's Vettel, Alonso and Kimi at the front of the pack. Then Hamilton, Nico, Button, followed by Hulk, with varying degrees of options after this.

But I expect we'll get years of Webber's opinions aka. like our very own version of a retired JV. Oh joy.

Ohh yeah, be wicked if he became a bbc pundent.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

For once I agree with him. However the "top 2" is at the moment really the top 3. You have to say that it's Vettel, Alonso and Kimi at the front of the pack. Then Hamilton, Nico, Button, followed by Hulk, with varying degrees of options after this.

spot on!

[Insider 0]

I think we are going to see just how good Vettel is in 2014. Hamilton is as immature for his age as Seb is mature and therein lies the rub. Lewis has lifestyle problems that he can't seem to leave at home and it's hurt him this past year. I am not a huge Nando fan but he is classy. Unfortunately, I feel his star might fade before Ferraris' shines again and a much-rumoured move to what will be, an experimental car in 2015 at Macca is probably ill-starred. He has a contract for that year and you can bet LdM will hold him too it. I am amazed Webber forgot all about KImi.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Never paid much attention to the Webber vs Kimi goings on. I'm sure Kimi doesn't honestly care, as is happy with his friends. But as for Webber I have no idea if he liked him, or maybe was even jealous of him like JV has become of the years.

Lewis is immature for sure, but it wasn't just last year he had problems. I'd go out on a short limb and say I think he's been immature since he first came into F1. His first year probably doesn't count as he was a rookie and still very young, but from 2008 onwards, he's had far too many stupid off track incidents, and the untold number of stupid things that have come out of his mouth too. His issues with Nicole and his Dad and so forth simply show that life's ups and downs occur for even the famous and wealthy. But his ability of inability to get to grips with it by now, means for me he will probably never get on top of things. That's why I think he thought in his head running away from your problems was the answer. He'll soon be signing a new song once next years Merc turns out to be more of the same 4th team on the grid performances.

If you want to pick drivers to stand with you in the trenches, to not back down or run away when the going get's tough, Hamilton wouldn't be on anyone's list, probably not even Nicoles.

[Emmcee 0]

First of all, I have honestly heard Webber speaking about Kimi, in a recent interview he was asked on his opinions about Kimi and Alonso, he said that Kimi is one of the fastest and that they all know what he can do, he also said he can deliver when it counts, but he also said he is expecting fireworks at Ferrari if Kimi is quick right away.

As for Lewis your right. Every year bar his first has been riddled with his of track soap opera. His first year IMO, was he best to date. Mentally tough, hardly made mistakes, come to think about about it, I think China that year was his only diving fault leading into retirement. Incredible for a rookie living up to so much hype as a double world champion as a teammate. Also he was bloody quick. His drive in Fuji that year is his best yet IMO. We saw Senna that day. Incredible car control. But he really needs to screw his head on, otherwise he won't add to that single title. What a waste.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

I hope we get more of this stuff from Webber, it's interesting to get a driver's insight into how good the other drivers are - they're the ones who know better than anyone.

I think it's unfair to compare him with JV who just trash-talked other drivers

[Emmcee 0]

JV was and still is an idiot. This is a guy who jumps into the best car on the grid and fights with Schumi and has the nerve to call himself a great. Why? Cuz you have a title you won in a car that was miles ahead of the competition, for two years in a row aswell. His class was shown to him and the world in the 1996 Spanish gp. Where Schumi just drove around him and drove of into the distance. That's the skill comparison right there.

Here's a video I came accross of Webber and tennis player Pat Rafter, comparing reaction times.

http://m.gpupdate.net/en/videos/4345/webber-tests-his-reactions/

[KoolMonkey 0]

JV was and still is an idiot. This is a guy who jumps into the best car on the grid and fights with Schumi and has the nerve to call himself a great. Why? Cuz you have a title you won in a car that was miles ahead of the competition, for two years in a row aswell. His class was shown to him and the world in the 1996 Spanish gp. Where Schumi just drove around him and drove of into the distance. That's the skill comparison right there.

Here's a video I came accross of Webber and tennis player Pat Rafter, comparing reaction times.

http://m.gpupdate.ne...-his-reactions/

That's a bit harsh of JV. He is an idiot now, and you may not know this but I was a HUGE fan of his along with nojvnof1. I supported his move to BAR and had hoped he'd do well. When he left F1, it sucked. His comeback at Sauber was met with as much excitement as fans of Kimi's 2 years ago. But he ended up losing his seat to Kubica and that was it. His career was amazing. Indy 500 Champ, IndyCar Champ, F1 Champ, and almost in his first year.

To say he won in the best car... here we go again it's that same old argument. You know Schumi won his first 2x WDC in the best car too. Sometimes the best drivers find themselves in the best cars. Their job is to go fast and win, and they go fast and they win. No one should ever then try to negate or take away from their achievements.

To use JV's career after Williams as proof he was crap doesn't fly with many who understand how motor racing truly works.

The fact is Schumi saw JV as a valid rival. He was fast, he could win, and he did. Schumi's 2 most famously bad sportsmanship episodes involved both Damon and JV. And both in the last race of the season. It hurt Schumi and still does to this day more than it hurt Damon and JV. Because just like in Monaco 2006, it revealed a racer who would do anything unethical including flat out cheating to win.

I can separate the JV of the past, a racer who is in a very select few of multiple Champions, with the JV of today who I feel is probably still bitter about how his career played out in F1. And seeing how well Kimi came back into F1 has to rile him up bigtime, because I'm sure he thought he would be able to do just as well.

JV is still a Champion despite his bad mouth and poor choice of words. But that is overshadowed by him now being an ex bitter F1 driver.

In his day, he was dynomite, and he was never shy of saying things that were controversial. Now however I feel he feels he has to play up to that all the time. It would have been better he just be a great ex and retired Champion, rather than someone constantly blasting Kimi and other drivers.

[Emmcee 0]

You can't honestly say that the 94 Benetton of Schumacher's was better than Hills/Sennas Williams. No way, the ford engine in the Benetton was only a v8 and the Renault of the Williams was a v10, it was an overall better package. It wasn't till 1995 when Benetton aquired the same engines as Williams, which made them almost impossible to beat. So Schumi didn't win in the best car all the time. But Villenueve I agree WAS good but, he did have to have the car to be anywhere near the front, he was nearly beaten by Frentzen in 98 and Massa beat him in the sauber.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

I didnt follow f1 in 1994 but weren't there allegations that Benetton were cheating somehow with Schuey's car?

As for JV on the one hand stats don't lie, he has an incredible CV of achievements and he did have a very impressive rookie season even if he was in the best car. Frentzen showed at Jordan & Sauber that he's actually pretty good, and JV trounced him (for the most part).

But from 03 onwards (after trash-talking Jenson then being beat by him!) he didnt look like much of a champ at all. I remember in particular his Renault stint which was just embarrassing. Hard to judge 99-02 cos the BAR was such a poor machine.

[Emmcee 0]

I didnt follow f1 in 1994 but weren't there allegations that Benetton were cheating somehow with Schuey's car?

As for JV on the one hand stats don't lie, he has an incredible CV of achievements and he did have a very impressive rookie season even if he was in the best car. Frentzen showed at Jordan & Sauber that he's actually pretty good, and JV trounced him (for the most part).

But from 03 onwards (after trash-talking Jenson then being beat by him!) he didnt look like much of a champ at all. I remember in particular his Renault stint which was just embarrassing. Hard to judge 99-02 cos the BAR was such a poor machine.

ive just never really taken to him and he really hasn't impressed me quite as much as some champions

[Jem of the Shire 0]

ive just never really taken to him and he really hasn't impressed me quite as much as some champions

No I should also point out that I too always thought he was a massive douche and still do

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Robert Kubica's take on vettel v alonso (I don't understand which one he's actually choosing here though!):

“As a driver I shouldn’t answer this question,” the 29-year-old responded. ”I think Vettel is in a state of grace. When you have a team and a situation that is so competitive, then it gives you an unbelievable confidence.”

“Any driver in the top ten of Formula 1, in that situation, would be invincible,” added Kubica.

“In contrast, in the situation like Alonso where you are always pushing so hard to win, it’s a constant struggle, and the same goes for the team, always trying extraordinary things, because the ordinary is not enough.

“Put it this way – Vettel is in a tunnel leading straight to victory, while Alonso is in a maze where you are trying to find the way at every turn,”

[Emmcee 0]

Robert Kubica's take on vettel v alonso (I don't understand which one he's actually choosing here though!):

“As a driver I shouldn’t answer this question,” the 29-year-old responded. ”I think Vettel is in a state of grace. When you have a team and a situation that is so competitive, then it gives you an unbelievable confidence.”

“Any driver in the top ten of Formula 1, in that situation, would be invincible,” added Kubica.

“In contrast, in the situation like Alonso where you are always pushing so hard to win, it’s a constant struggle, and the same goes for the team, always trying extraordinary things, because the ordinary is not enough.

“Put it this way – Vettel is in a tunnel leading straight to victory, while Alonso is in a maze where you are trying to find the way at every turn,”

That's a very good analogy, but even proof from someone who has raced against it, they still won't agree that the car is the main ingredient.

[KoolMonkey 0]

I didnt follow f1 in 1994 but weren't there allegations that Benetton were cheating somehow with Schuey's car?

As for JV on the one hand stats don't lie, he has an incredible CV of achievements and he did have a very impressive rookie season even if he was in the best car. Frentzen showed at Jordan & Sauber that he's actually pretty good, and JV trounced him (for the most part).

But from 03 onwards (after trash-talking Jenson then being beat by him!) he didnt look like much of a champ at all. I remember in particular his Renault stint which was just embarrassing. Hard to judge 99-02 cos the BAR was such a poor machine.

It wasn't just allegations, it was proven. Benetton were found to have had traction control in their car. The only reason they got off, was because as stupid as this sounds, having it, it being buried under a maze of secret menus in the software settings, the FIA had no proof they actually used it. Senna himself had make it clear he thought something was funny with their cars in relation to traction control, and many others in pitlane did too. This to me is one of the greatest cases of genuine cheating not being punished in F1. Real cheating, no rule bending, or not following the spirit of hte rules, but flat out, let's put nitrous in our fuel tank. Benetton also cheated in 2004 by removing fuel filters form the refueling rigs, thus allowing them to pump fuel faster and gain an advantage.

This would be like a guy being caught with a dead body in the trunk of his car, the bloody knife used to murder the poor soul having this finger prints on it, the murdered person being the guy's ex girlfriend, and yet the prosecutors can't prove he did it because no one saw him do it. We all know he did it, the evidence shows he did it.

I think the FIA let them off because they feared total embarrassment for their inability to police it. They failed utterly and completely. Of course Benetton were using it.

WebRic, Frentzen was the real deal. He was the Fisi before there was a Fisi, even could be compared to a Kubica actually, and he actually did produce the results. He came very close to being a WDC, both in a Willams and in a Jordan, so him being close to JV isn't a slight in any way.

I agree the first few years of the BAR were atrocious. I don't like that he wrote off Button that way he did, but actually they did end up as friends down the line.

Jem, you can't hold JV's time at Renault in any seriousness I feel or use it as ammo to show he wasn't good. I would compare it to Fisi in the Ferrari. JV should have done better yes, but he didn't know the team, and it was not a car in anyway to his liking. The Renaults of that era were very specific to Alonso's liking, and hardly what I'd call even a neutral car setup wise. Only having 3 races in it and expecting him to do great, it wasn't going to happen. His time at Sauber was better, but not of the level his fans and others expected.

Let's think of his achievements this way. The only other person in recent history to achieve what he had done was Nigel Mansell, and if anything JV did the harder way. He went from IndyCar to F1, and history shows most fail badly. Mansell went from F1 to IndyCar which is strangely alot easier to do. JV missed out on being the WDC in his rookie year by 3 points. Now I can't remember if he had won if that would have been the first rookie ever to do that, or the youngest, but it doesn't matter what car he was driving, that's what he achieved. The next year he did one better and won. So at least for his first 2 years he was consistent and nailing it.

I never thought was a douche until after he left F1. And not the first time he left momentarily after BAR, but after Sauber. At that point he openly because bitter and to me jealous. He honestly was good enough to have still been in F1, but for whatever reason be it personality or who knows, he lost his seat to Kubica. He was never going to be champ again, and probably never going to win another race in the mid teams he was driving for, but he was still clearly good enough to have stayed on if he wanted to, which he did.

I dislike him now, because of what he says. I still admire him, and appreciate what he as done, as he was sometime I loved watching in Cart and F1. It saddens me to see him nowdays. I don't hate the guy, I just wish he'd shutup now and just be grateful and learn to be gracious.