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Apples127

Sounds About Engine Noise

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I think until you've experienced a Grand Prix trackside James it's difficult for you to understand what it's actually like. Most people never forget their first time as the noise has such an impact it's unforgettable. Sadly for you even if you do make it to a race you'll never experience the same sensation as the noise now is underwhelming. If you don't like loud noises perhaps you're following the wrong sport

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Respectfully, I disagree. I love motorsports of all kinds and I've been to a few races. ALMS, World of Outlaws, Springfield Mile, and even the occasional tractor pull. Wearing ear plugs all the time because I'd like to keep my hearing. To me, racing isn't about noise. It is about a driver piloting their vehicle as fast or strategically as possible to win the race.

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I think until you've experienced a Grand Prix trackside James it's difficult for you to understand what it's actually like. Most people never forget their first time as the noise has such an impact it's unforgettable. Sadly for you even if you do make it to a race you'll never experience the same sensation as the noise now is underwhelming. If you don't like loud noises perhaps you're following the wrong sport

Just his opinion man, don't get upset because some people don't agree with you. I do agree with you that the sound is crap, but realistically since I most likely won't ever make it to a gp as I support 2 kids and my partner, money is tight, so I only know f1 from watching it on tv, and from what I saw, it was a vast improvement in terms of control and drivability, yeah they might sound crap, like I said before, I most likely won't make it to a live race so what I see on tv is the best I get and it has improoved immensely, just the professionalism in car control now required is awesome.

Edited by WebRic

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Look, 90% of F1 fans watch races on TV and this sport has always evolved with the times we live in. I am sure there is some middle ground where we can learn something from Indy and turn up the noise a tad because empty stadia will bring F1 racing to a swift end. Everyone knows that, FOM, the teams, the FIA. More importantly, we have to facilitate a way where these guys can drive the car to the max. Coasting and short-shifting just won't cut it for the majority of fans and the drivers. It needs tweaking for sure but it will probably take a season before any real changes are brought in.

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Yes Insider, I agree that the cars should be driven at full tilt. My comment to James was not meant to offend, I wasn't upset just making a point about being trackside

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Sitting in the stand at Luffield, no ear plugs. Not pleasant.

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I honestly never did understand the obsession with the noises that the V10s and the V8s made. Undoubtedly something was lost in translation between the mics at the track and the speakers on my T.V. but they always seemed a rather one dimensional weeeeeee weeeeee weeeeeeee. Now we get treated to all sorts of fun noises like wizzes, pops, bangs, and bwaaas.

Secondly, if I ever do get the opportunity to see a race in person, I'm sure the lack of stupidly loud noises will make me as happy as a clam. I never did like loud noises.

Yes.

Volume ≠ quality in sound, to me.

Respectfully, I disagree. I love motorsports of all kinds and I've been to a few races. ALMS, World of Outlaws, Springfield Mile, and even the occasional tractor pull. Wearing ear plugs all the time because I'd like to keep my hearing. To me, racing isn't about noise. It is about a driver piloting their vehicle as fast or strategically as possible to win the race.

And this, too.

Look, 90% of F1 fans watch races on TV and this sport has always evolved with the times we live in. I am sure there is some middle ground where we can learn something from Indy and turn up the noise a tad because empty stadia will bring F1 racing to a swift end. Everyone knows that, FOM, the teams, the FIA. More importantly, we have to facilitate a way where these guys can drive the car to the max. Coasting and short-shifting just won't cut it for the majority of fans and the drivers. It needs tweaking for sure but it will probably take a season before any real changes are brought in.

I still think the big issue with empty tracks (which they already are) is this:

Let's compare the USGP in Elroy, TX to the NASCAR Sprint Cup and IndyCar races in Fort Worth.

The USGP offers no race tickets that aren't weekend passes. If you cannot attend Friday/Saturday, too bad. You pay for it.

At $223.88 for the weekend, general admission is the cheapest option. The most expensive option for NASCAR is $160.29; for IndyCar, it is $88.29.

That's not fair, you say. USGP is a weekend ticket. Yes, but cash outlay is cash outlay to some purchasers. They aren't dividing this out. If they don't have $223.88 to pay, they can't go. It's that simple for them.

But maybe for other fans, it is more complex. So, let's run those.

You want to sit in the main grandstand, near start/finish, a bit high up, for the full weekend of any of these races.

That's a nice $1,419.84 for F1. $228.14 for NASCAR. $145.33 for IndyCar.

Okay, sure you could go to F1's weekend for $223.88. That's general admission. I'm talking best seats in the house for NASCAR (see the whole track, too) for under $5 more. We're comparing apples to apples. These are the best seats. The IndyCar deal is the best seats for cheaper, with some ex-F1 drivers, and a NASCAR Truck race the day before. A good variety, and a very popular race for Indy's fans.

You want the bad seats? Again, F1's weekend is $223.88. NASCAR: $73.54 weekend. IndyCar: $83.54 weekend. See where I'm going?

If you want to divide it out by hours of racing, you'll find NASCAR to be the best value because the races are long. I won't do it because I really don't know of a single, ticket-purchasing human being who calculates hourly rates when deciding. Maybe people should, but people don't. Most just look at the total price.

Now, yes. NASCAR and IndyCar and F1 are not always substitutes. Some people like oval racing. Some people don't. Some people like open-wheel cars. Some people don't. Some people think Jimmie Johnson and Kyle Busch are the world's best. Some people think Sebastian Vettel and Fernando Alonso are. Some people think Scott Dixon and Will Power are. So, not everyone looking at F1 tickets is going to say, "well, I'll go to NASCAR, instead" because not everyone likes NASCAR, obviously.

But I think my point sticks: NASCAR and IndyCar races are nowhere near as full as they used to be, and they are racing in markets where they have a following, and in markets that traditionally like motor racing. And they're doing that a lot cheaper than F1. So, what do you expect to see in the stands when tickets that offer more access at a lower price and are marketed to people who actually want to go to the races aren't selling?

Noise is irrelevant to that.

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Yes.

Volume ≠ quality in sound, to me.

And this, too.

I still think the big issue with empty tracks (which they already are) is this:

Let's compare the USGP in Elroy, TX to the NASCAR Sprint Cup and IndyCar races in Fort Worth.

The USGP offers no race tickets that aren't weekend passes. If you cannot attend Friday/Saturday, too bad. You pay for it.

At $223.88 for the weekend, general admission is the cheapest option. The most expensive option for NASCAR is $160.29; for IndyCar, it is $88.29.

That's not fair, you say. USGP is a weekend ticket. Yes, but cash outlay is cash outlay to some purchasers. They aren't dividing this out. If they don't have $223.88 to pay, they can't go. It's that simple for them.

But maybe for other fans, it is more complex. So, let's run those.

You want to sit in the main grandstand, near start/finish, a bit high up, for the full weekend of any of these races.

That's a nice $1,419.84 for F1. $228.14 for NASCAR. $145.33 for IndyCar.

Okay, sure you could go to F1's weekend for $223.88. That's general admission. I'm talking best seats in the house for NASCAR (see the whole track, too) for under $5 more. We're comparing apples to apples. These are the best seats. The IndyCar deal is the best seats for cheaper, with some ex-F1 drivers, and a NASCAR Truck race the day before. A good variety, and a very popular race for Indy's fans.

You want the bad seats? Again, F1's weekend is $223.88. NASCAR: $73.54 weekend. IndyCar: $83.54 weekend. See where I'm going?

If you want to divide it out by hours of racing, you'll find NASCAR to be the best value because the races are long. I won't do it because I really don't know of a single, ticket-purchasing human being who calculates hourly rates when deciding. Maybe people should, but people don't. Most just look at the total price.

Now, yes. NASCAR and IndyCar and F1 are not always substitutes. Some people like oval racing. Some people don't. Some people like open-wheel cars. Some people don't. Some people think Jimmie Johnson and Kyle Busch are the world's best. Some people think Sebastian Vettel and Fernando Alonso are. Some people think Scott Dixon and Will Power are. So, not everyone looking at F1 tickets is going to say, "well, I'll go to NASCAR, instead" because not everyone likes NASCAR, obviously.

But I think my point sticks: NASCAR and IndyCar races are nowhere near as full as they used to be, and they are racing in markets where they have a following, and in markets that traditionally like motor racing. And they're doing that a lot cheaper than F1. So, what do you expect to see in the stands when tickets that offer more access at a lower price and are marketed to people who actually want to go to the races aren't selling?

Noise is irrelevant to that.

I should have let you manage me when I had money! There are untapped markets which overpricing neuters. F1 should be run by the teams with a salaried business CEO plus admin staff and priced to succeed. Whitmarsh would be good at this. There is plenty of cash to go around when Bernie hasn't got his hand on the till.

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Hey peeps, how about this for an add on thought for debate....

What if F1 is trying to attract the wrong manufacturers? Companies like Honda, Renault, Mercedes etc are mass car producing manufacturers and what they stand for maybe better suited and promoted within the new Formula E environment. Then all the green loving environmentally firiendly people that prefer squealing tyres & electricity over brutal sounding screaming engine noises would be right at home.

I read Ross Brawn said that the old formula of V8 engines was not going to attract manufacturers like Honda back to F1. Perhaps Ross wasn't asking the "right" manufacturers a leading question.....What I mean by the right manufacturers is exotic sports car companies like Lamboghini, Maserati, Ferrari, Aston Martin & the like who's image is much more in keeping with F1 - Glamour, fame, horsepower & awesome sounding engines and everything else in excess that both F1 & these car manufacturers so obviously have in common. I wonder if Ross has asked these exotic sports car companies that if F1 was to go back to a V10 or V12 normally aspirated engine would they be interested in being engine suppliers? I'm pretty confident Ferrari would've been on board & to the best of my knowledge the other sports car companies still produce V10 & V12 brutal awesome sounding horsepower units! Wouldn't this be much more aligned to what both F1 is about and these sports car manufacturers that turn your head when you see one of their products pass you by in your local neighborhood street?

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Ok people how about this for a thought for debate....

What if F1 is trying to attract the wrong manufacturers? Companies like Honda, Renault, Mercedes etc are mass car producing manufacturers and what they stand for maybe better suited and promoted within the new Formula E environment. Then all the green loving environmentally firiendly people that prefer squealing tyres & electricity over brutal sounding screaming engine noises would be right at home.

I read Ross Brawn said that the old formula of V8 engines was not going to attract manufacturers like Honda back to F1. Perhaps Ross wasn't asking the "right" manufacturers a leading question.....What I mean by the right manufacturers is exotic sports car companies like Lamboghini, Maserati, Ferrari, Aston Martin & the like who's image is much more in keeping with F1 - Glamour, fame, horsepower & awesome sounding engines and everything else in excess that both F1 & these car manufacturers so obviously have in common. I wonder if Ross has asked these exotic sports car companies that if F1 was to go back to a V10 or V12 normally aspirated engine would they be interested in being engine suppliers? I'm pretty confident Ferrari would've been on board & to the best of my knowledge the other sports car companies still produce V10 & V12 brutal awesome sounding horsepower units! Wouldn't this be much more aligned to what both F1 is about and these sports car manufacturers that turn your head when you see one of their products pass you by in your local neighborhood street?

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Tbh mate me personally, I couldn't care less what manufacturer is there as long as the racing is good, ill watch it.

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The other thing is it's not just about the manufacturers wanting to go green, it's f1 having to justify its own existence to the world's governments by showing that it's contributing to battling climate change etc and not contributing to it.

And those sportscar manufacturers are nearly all owned by parent companies, who will only enter F1 if they think there's a business case for it to help market their product. I understand that a Maserati team might help market Maserati's, but I imagine the target market is so tiny that it wouldn't be worth the humungous investment.

Also I guess you could argue that we already have the FIA GT championship for the kind of thing you're talking about perhaps?

I personally liked having lots of privateer teams like we had in the 90's but those days are long gone.

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The problem is modern F1 is more aero than engine. So even if Audi/VW/Lambo/Astin/Porsche etc. were enticed to come join the show, it's such a huge risk and investment that has a very real chance of failing. I hope one day they make for instance the front wings free of all the triple decker loop le loops, and all the other stupid gadgets on the car. Even the mirrors are becoming wings yet again and I thought they'd banned that.

The aero trickery has to be scaled back and, allow more mechanical down force. Even then I couldn't see any of the other car companies coming to play. Engine freezes, fuel limits, fuel flow limits, it's embarrassing how bad F1 is now. Engine sound... sure, Lambo's going to sign up for that one eh. Not a chance.

We're one loon away from being a spec series now. The only differences are how creative the team PR guys are on twitter.

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My point is relative in terms of size & scale.....there are only 22 F1 cars in the world that start a race 19 times per year so in the scheme of things & how they actually pollute the climate is so minute it's not even a drop in the ocean. It's a bit like the tiny market you referred to if Maserati were to be a supplier to F1. If F1 were supported by "tiny" market car manufacturers that represented such a tiny percentage of climate damage then how can the world complain about them compared to a manufacturer as large as Mercedes? At least the tiny market you're referring to would bring a "huge" deal of pleasure to its "huge" F1 fan base that F1 is now on the back foot of holding on to

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We'd probably have 22 very unreliable cars, then.

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Or we could just bring back the DFV and be done with it.

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Couldn't be worse than the cars we've seen over winter testing & at least they'd sound awesome whilst they are running..... Oh I forgot, this years cars are so quiet if you were track side you wouldn't know if they're running or broken down....

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I'm all for technology, I just think it could be done with exotic engine manufacturers such as Lamborghini, Ferrari, Maserati etc that produce brutal awesome sounding normally aspirated engines whom also currently develop hybrid systems then everyone is happy. I wouldn't expect the current F1 suppliers to follow suit because unlike the sports car manufacturers they don't produce a V12 road car. My point is sports car manufacturers are much more aligned with what F1 is about

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Couldn't be worse than the cars we've seen over winter testing & at least they'd sound awesome whilst they are running..... Oh I forgot, this years cars are so quiet if you were track side you wouldn't know if they're running or broken down....

You would have to be the first person I've met who specifically just listens to f1 instead of watching it, we know you don't like the sound mate, you've made that clear, you don't have to remind us every post.

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You would have to be the first person I've met who specifically just listens to f1 instead of watching it, we know you don't like the sound mate, you've made that clear, you don't have to remind us every post.

Indeed.

I have been watching F1 since the 70s. Like most of us, I am perfectly able to find articles and footage about the eras I didn't see, thanks to Google and Youtube. So I am barely being original when I say that car noises have change substantially in these past 64 years. Same goes for the cars design, the engines, the tires, the fuel, the teams, the drivers, the rules...everything changes continually.

There's only one thing that's eternal: the F1 doomsayers.

When I was young and known as "goldilocks" (and the dinosaurs roamed the earth), there was no interweb, so it was harder for people to make their concerns known, yet even then "F1 was not anymore the pinnacle of motorsport!!!". Why? Because team orders, because sponsorship, because turbos, because side skirts, because FISA vs FOCA, because drunken unprofessional drivers, because deaths, because too many electronic aids, because banning of turbos, because too professional drivers, because no refueling, because refueling, because qualifying formats, because no safety, because too much safety...and the list goes on.

64 years later and F1 has nothing in common with the Fangio-era sport. Yet people keep seeing the apocalypse any day soon.

This weekend I will still wake up at 4 a.m. to watch the race and enjoy it lots, or be bored to death, but it will still be F1 and I will still be looking forward for the next race, the next set of rules, the next championship.

Live with it.

EDIT: FISA, you dumbkopf, not FOTA!

Edited by Quiet One

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Ok people how about this for a thought for debate....

What if F1 is trying to attract the wrong manufacturers? Companies like Honda, Renault, Mercedes etc are mass car producing manufacturers and what they stand for maybe better suited and promoted within the new Formula E environment. Then all the green loving environmentally firiendly people that prefer squealing tyres & electricity over brutal sounding screaming engine noises would be right at home.

I read Ross Brawn said that the old formula of V8 engines was not going to attract manufacturers like Honda back to F1. Perhaps Ross wasn't asking the "right" manufacturers a leading question.....What I mean by the right manufacturers is exotic sports car companies like Lamboghini, Maserati, Ferrari, Aston Martin & the like who's image is much more in keeping with F1 - Glamour, fame, horsepower & awesome sounding engines and everything else in excess that both F1 & these car manufacturers so obviously have in common. I wonder if Ross has asked these exotic sports car companies that if F1 was to go back to a V10 or V12 normally aspirated engine would they be interested in being engine suppliers? I'm pretty confident Ferrari would've been on board & to the best of my knowledge the other sports car companies still produce V10 & V12 brutal awesome sounding horsepower units! Wouldn't this be much more aligned to what both F1 is about and these sports car manufacturers that turn your head when you see one of their products pass you by in your local neighborhood street?

Mercedes as a green, mass car producer is a funny one to little U.S. American me. Mercedes is a high-luxury, low-volume performance brand here. :P

But anyway.

Renault is in Formula E as a technical partner. McLaren, too; they build the actual motor. Wait, did I just say...McLaren?! The supercar builder?! Oh, golly, what have I done.

Renault is also still in F1. How funny.

Honda's electric adventures are in hydrogen, not in the batteries Formula E uses. It would be a bad fit. I can't think of a single Mercedes using electric technology, but what do I know?

High volume car producers can better afford this than low volume ones. So, consider that, too.

See, if we invited Ferrari, we'd be silly because Ferrari's here with V6s, anyway.

And if we invited Maserati, we'd be silly, because FIAT is already here with Ferrari. Not that they can't be there at the same time, but you're not really adding a new manufacturer unless Maserati does it totally separately from Ferrari.

Why would Volkswagen Audi Group come as Lamborghini with V10s or V12s when Volkswagen Audi Group won't come as Volkswagen or Audi with V6s? In fact, Audi is more involved in Formula E, and with hybrids at Le Mans, than anything else. And they have Porsche there, too, now. Why? Because the engines there got smaller and more fuel efficient, too.

Aston Martin? They ran V12s in Le Mans Prototype. And they folded the whole program. You know why? Because for them, racing GT cars (the GT3s have a V12, the GTEs have a V8) makes more sense when trying to sell the cars those GT cars are oh so similar to.

So, let's talk about that. There's probably something you can get from being in F1 technologically, yes. But kid yourself not: this is marketing. And F1 sure is expensive marketing for a low-volume seller when F1 is watched by the masses of us who will never own such cars. Bad match. Hondas? Renaults? We buy those. High-volume car companies in a racing series with the highest fan volume of any. You can't justify the expense of F1 as easily when you aren't trying to market to the masses.

See, if their products make my head turn when they pass by, their products are speaking pretty well as aspirational, high-glamor, high-excess things. Why use F1 to send the same exact message to me? And wouldn't an unsuccessful racing team do a lot to damage that reputation?

GT racing makes sense for people who build sports cars. There's a huge link between those cars and the road car in technology. It's cheaper. It's marketed at more of a niche fan-base; niche company. It checks out.

Maybe you'd like to watch it.

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BTW, I don't mind people disagreeing with the noise, even if I like it. I can understand people saying "I don't like the new noise", what I argue against is about "Different noise equals death of F1".

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You would have to be the first person I've met who specifically just listens to f1 instead of watching it, we know you don't like the sound mate, you've made that clear, you don't have to remind us every post.

I watch and listen to F1 & have attended Grands Prix in 5 European countries, Singapore and of course Australia every year since 2000. I think that qualifies that I "watch" Grands Prix. May I ask WebRic, have you been to a Grand Prix?

Edited by Apples127

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