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Apples127

Sounds About Engine Noise

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Mercedes as a green, mass car producer is a funny one to little U.S. American me. Mercedes is a high-luxury, low-volume performance brand here. tongue.png

But anyway.

Renault is in Formula E as a technical partner. McLaren, too; they build the actual motor. Wait, did I just say...McLaren?! The supercar builder?! Oh, golly, what have I done.

Renault is also still in F1. How funny.

Honda's electric adventures are in hydrogen, not in the batteries Formula E uses. It would be a bad fit. I can't think of a single Mercedes using electric technology, but what do I know?

High volume car producers can better afford this than low volume ones. So, consider that, too.

See, if we invited Ferrari, we'd be silly because Ferrari's here with V6s, anyway.

And if we invited Maserati, we'd be silly, because FIAT is already here with Ferrari. Not that they can't be there at the same time, but you're not really adding a new manufacturer unless Maserati does it totally separately from Ferrari.

Why would Volkswagen Audi Group come as Lamborghini with V10s or V12s when Volkswagen Audi Group won't come as Volkswagen or Audi with V6s? In fact, Audi is more involved in Formula E, and with hybrids at Le Mans, than anything else. And they have Porsche there, too, now. Why? Because the engines there got smaller and more fuel efficient, too.

Aston Martin? They ran V12s in Le Mans Prototype. And they folded the whole program. You know why? Because for them, racing GT cars (the GT3s have a V12, the GTEs have a V8) makes more sense when trying to sell the cars those GT cars are oh so similar to.

So, let's talk about that. There's probably something you can get from being in F1 technologically, yes. But kid yourself not: this is marketing. And F1 sure is expensive marketing for a low-volume seller when F1 is watched by the masses of us who will never own such cars. Bad match. Hondas? Renaults? We buy those. High-volume car companies in a racing series with the highest fan volume of any. You can't justify the expense of F1 as easily when you aren't trying to market to the masses.

See, if their products make my head turn when they pass by, their products are speaking pretty well as aspirational, high-glamor, high-excess things. Why use F1 to send the same exact message to me? And wouldn't an unsuccessful racing team do a lot to damage that reputation?

GT racing makes sense for people who build sports cars. There's a huge link between those cars and the road car in technology. It's cheaper. It's marketed at more of a niche fan-base; niche company. It checks out.

Maybe you'd like to watch it.

Insightful input Massa, I agree F1 is expensive marketing.

Your second last paragraph quotes "aspirational, high-glamor, high-excess things" when referring to sports cars - isn't that what F1 has always been about? My suggestion about Lamboghini, Maserati & Aston Martin etc was to be engine suppliers rather full factory teams. The car manufacturers come & go all the time whinging about how expensive F1 is & struggle to justify the cost. So if Renault & Mercedes were to withdraw on the grounds of different engines we'd only be losing two teams because Ferrari wouldn't quit & the departing two teams would likely be bought out like Ross Brawn bought Honda last time they bowed out.

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I watch and listen to F1 & have attended Grands Prix in 5 European countries, Singapore and of course Australia every year since 2000. I think that qualifies that I "watch" Grands Prix. May I ask WebRic, have you been to a Grand Prix?

Yes I have many times. Although not f1 I've been to many surfers paradise Grand Prix when the champ cars were here, so I do have some idea of what the noise level was, don't get me wrong like I said before, I totally agree with you on the noise factor, I seriously do, if I had my way, I'd return to the screaming v10 engines, IMO the best sounding ever. But with what I saw and you would have seen it to and with your extensive knowledge of the sport you would have seen how much more challenging these cars are to drive and what fantastic racing we saw, you would have to agree, we haven't seen that sort of car control required since the days of no traction control and that's a fact. But to go as far as to as to saying it ruins the sport, I think not, far from it infact, but like I said, I only know f1 from tv so it doesn't make much difference. All I see is much more exciting racing and that's a huge plus IMO.

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Or we could just bring back the DFV and be done with it.

I'd be alright with this.

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Yes I have many times. Although not f1 I've been to many surfers paradise Grand Prix when the champ cars were here, so I do have some idea of what the noise level was, don't get me wrong like I said before, I totally agree with you on the noise factor, I seriously do, if I had my way, I'd return to the screaming v10 engines, IMO the best sounding ever. But with what I saw and you would have seen it to and with your extensive knowledge of the sport you would have seen how much more challenging these cars are to drive and what fantastic racing we saw, you would have to agree, we haven't seen that sort of car control required since the days of no traction control and that's a fact. But to go as far as to as to saying it ruins the sport, I think not, far from it infact, but like I said, I only know f1 from tv so it doesn't make much difference. All I see is much more exciting racing and that's a huge plus IMO.

I understand what you're saying mate & I hope the racing is close too but we've only had one race this year where Nico Rosberg took off and won without being challenged. We also don't know how much in reserve he had in terms performance as I would've thought they would have only pushed as little as possible to win the race and not risk reliability. As I've mentioned in a previous post if Hamilton & Rosberg are allowed to race each other my fear is everyone will get sick of the sight of two Mercedes disappearing into the distance every race - this would be reminiscent of Prost & Senna in 1988. Apart from Vettel dominating last year it was only 2 odd years ago that we had a different winner for the first 6 or 7 Grands Prix of the year, I can never recall the racing ever being that close in the 32 years I've followed the sport so I'm confused as to why people think from one race in Melbourne this year is supposedly so much better racing.

Finally, respectfully, since you haven't been track side to a Grand Prix it's impossible for you to accurately conceive what an F1 car actually sounds like. It doesn't compare to Indy at all & it's a shame that you haven't experienced it as you'd probably then better understand why I'm so hot on the topic.

Edited by Apples127

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There are more people in this world than you. smile.png

Yes and there a lot of people that feel the same way as I do. I was at the Melbourne race, I saw people leave the track in disgust with over an hour of FP2 still to run. I've spoken to people who were there that aren't happy, there has been a lot of media hype about it all. I'm struggling to acknowledge some peoples comments who weren't there or have never been - on what authority can you be speaking on?

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I have the solution to the sound "problem" - tried and tested technology....

Remember when you were a kid? To make your bicycle sound cool, you used to attach a piece of cardboard so that it rubbed against the spokes....

Bernie just needs to issue an edict to the F1 teams to do the same :D *

* might not work so well if it is a wet race, though... :)

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They could always shove a trumpet shaped amplifier up the exhaust pipe as depicted on Jenson Button's Facebook page!

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Yes and there a lot of people that feel the same way as I do. I was at the Melbourne race, I saw people leave the track in disgust with over an hour of FP2 still to run. I've spoken to people who were there that aren't happy, there has been a lot of media hype about it all. I'm struggling to acknowledge some peoples comments who weren't there or have never been - on what authority can you be speaking on?

I feel like you're fighting this battle single-handedly. But I'm with you on this. I wouldn't leave silverstone in disgust but I know the lack of noise would disappoint me.

Remember when you were a kid? To make your bicycle sound cool, you used to attach a piece of cardboard so that it rubbed against the spokes....

Nah you were doing it wrong! You have to squish a can (eg coke/pepsi can) and put that on top of the rear tyre, between the tyre and the bit that holds the brake pads. Then it sounded like a motorbike. Although my method probably wasn't so good for my tyre wear.

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I suppose in 2009 when the new cars came out, they looked absolutely ridiculous with the little rear wing and gargantuan snow plough front wing. I hated how they looked, I think a lot of us did. But within a year everyone was used to it.

I hope it's the same with the engine sound, we will just get used to it. We might as well, because it's not like F1 is going to revert to high-revving V8's, probably ever again.

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I'm all for technology, I just think it could be done with exotic engine manufacturers such as Lamborghini, Ferrari, Maserati etc that produce brutal awesome sounding normally aspirated engines whom also currently develop hybrid systems then everyone is happy. I wouldn't expect the current F1 suppliers to follow suit because unlike the sports car manufacturers they don't produce a V12 road car. My point is sports car manufacturers are much more aligned with what F1 is about

I can't see Lamborghini signing up for F1 now. Maybe a few seasons ago when the cars were noisy but not in this turbo era. Maybe their daddies VW and/or Audi but they're probably focused on Dakar & Le Mans respectively. Lamborghini's party piece have always been that big snarling V12 causing mayhem & deafness throughout the land & I doubt they're gonna change their ways by entering in this new quiet/turbo era & not to mention Lambo's awful record in F1 in the past.

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I understand what you're saying mate & I hope the racing is close too but we've only had one race this year where Nico Rosberg took off and won without being challenged. We also don't know how much in reserve he had in terms performance as I would've thought they would have only pushed as little as possible to win the race and not risk reliability. As I've mentioned in a previous post if Hamilton & Rosberg are allowed to race each other my fear is everyone will get sick of the sight of two Mercedes disappearing into the distance every race - this would be reminiscent of Prost & Senna in 1988. Apart from Vettel dominating last year it was only 2 odd years ago that we had a different winner for the first 6 or 7 Grands Prix of the year, I can never recall the racing ever being that close in the 32 years I've followed the sport so I'm confused as to why people think from one race in Melbourne this year is supposedly so much better racing.

Finally, respectfully, since you haven't been track side to a Grand Prix it's impossible for you to accurately conceive what an F1 car actually sounds like. It doesn't compare to Indy at all & it's a shame that you haven't experienced it as you'd probably then better understand why I'm so hot on the topic.

I have been to a Grand Prix and I don't understand why you are so hot on the topic. I can understand you not liking the noise, but to suggest the death of F1 because of it seems a touch, well, myopic, to be honest.

When I went to a race, the noise was fantastic, don't get me wrong, there were pops, crackles & bangs from the engines that I haver never heard being picked up on tv. However, I was sitting at Bridge corner and what disappointed me, to some extent, was how easy the cars could make it around. Due to the chicane they put in before Bridge, the cars could get around so easy......until it rained and then all hell broke loose and that was so much more fun to watch. No amount of engine noise could make up for watching drivers really having to work to get it around the corner when it was raining.

The reason people are more enthusiastic about the racing after just one race is because they looked so much more of a handful to control. The cars were snaking in straight lines under power, we have not seen that for a while. Even if one team runs away and wins it at a canter, if the cars stay like this all season, then they will have earned it, I don't think it's going to be an easy task.

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I can't see Lamborghini signing up for F1 now. Maybe a few seasons ago when the cars were noisy but not in this turbo era. Maybe their daddies VW and/or Audi but they're probably focused on Dakar & Le Mans respectively. Lamborghini's party piece have always been that big snarling V12 causing mayhem & deafness throughout the land & I doubt they're gonna change their ways by entering in this new quiet/turbo era & not to mention Lambo's awful record in F1 in the past.

If the situation gets worse through the season instead of blowing over F1 will have no option but to do something about it otherwise they'll risk having empty stands next year. My suggestion as a solution was for a return to normally aspirated engines in a bid to lure companies like Lamboghini, Maserati etc into being engine suppliers only. If Renault & Mercedes didn't want to play ball & withdraw from F1 it would only need two engine manufacturers to replace them to supply the teams as it's done now. I'm confident Ferrari would be on board

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But you haven't been to a Grand Prix with 2014 cars so until then you don't know what they're like. It's not just me that's hot on this topic, there are new articles through this website daily with the latest being Ron Walker has organized a meeting with F1 promoters in Bahrain to address the issue. Whether you want to hear this or not it's become a major issue with so much press coverage - not just a rant from me

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I think this can be summed up because people keep disagreeing but misunderstanding each other's points:

Do most people prefer the old noise? Yes.

Is F1 ruined? No.

I think we're all agreed on that?

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If Renault & Mercedes didn't want to play ball & withdraw from F1 it would only need two engine manufacturers to replace them to supply the teams as it's done now. I'm confident Ferrari would be on board

I don't think Bernie or FIA want to take that gamble! Far better for the sport to hold on to big manufacturers rather than risk losing them.

And Honda re-entering shows that F1 has done the right thing (in terms of securing its future by attracting big manufacturers), even if there are fans out there who don't like the new formula

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I think this can be summed up because people keep disagreeing but misunderstanding each other's points:

Do most people prefer the old noise? Yes.

Is F1 ruined? No.

I think we're all agreed on that?

I do.

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But you haven't been to a Grand Prix with 2014 cars so until then you don't know what they're like. It's not just me that's hot on this topic, there are new articles through this website daily with the latest being Ron Walker has organized a meeting with F1 promoters in Bahrain to address the issue. Whether you want to hear this or not it's become a major issue with so much press coverage - not just a rant from me

No, I haven't been to a Grand Prix in 2014, but I can imagine an F1 car quieter and with a bit of turbo noise thrown in, albeit very quietly :whistling: However, in all seriousness, I think you missed the point.

The noise is/was an added bonus, but it was more fun for me to watch the drivers struggling to control the cars in the rain than the outright noise. To that extent, even the classic car race that was on after the main event was more enjoyable to watch than F1 in the dry. The classic cars really were struggling for grip and so had spins, etc and you knew that drivers who could not only get around Bridge, but also set themselves up for a pass into the next bend were really on the money and I don't have to be deafened to appreciate that.

People with agendas grasping onto any tiny nugget they can to make a name for themselves is nothing new in F1, nor in life in general. It's almost like a self fulfilling prophecy at times, especially these days when it is so easy to get media coverage over anything. I am pretty certain Kylie Minogue farting could generate more media interest than the revolt over the noise of F1 engines.

It's also interesting that when doing a google search for Ron Walker, you get news about how bad F1 engines sound before information about the cancer drug that saved his life. This is a fairly telling illustration of the modern media. It's also quite interesting there is a suggestion that he is 'too close' to Bernie. Isn't Bernie moaning about the sound of F1 engines too? Coincidence or what?? :lol:

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I think this can be summed up because people keep disagreeing but misunderstanding each other's points:

Do most people prefer the old noise? Yes.

Is F1 ruined? No.

I think we're all agreed on that?

Aye.

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It's also interesting that when doing a google search for Ron Walker, you get news about how bad F1 engines sound before information about the cancer drug that saved his life. This is a fairly telling illustration of the modern media. It's also quite interesting there is a suggestion that he is 'too close' to Bernie. Isn't Bernie moaning about the sound of F1 engines too? Coincidence or what?? laugh.png

Interesting. Could be that he's publically expressing his views so that Bernie remains good chums and "I give you good price".

Re the news point, could be just cos google will bring up the most recent news stories?

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Interesting. Could be that he's publically expressing his views so that Bernie remains good chums and "I give you good price".

Re the news point, could be just cos google will bring up the most recent news stories?

Yep, no doubt it is, even though the story about the drug was only from 13th March this year, however, the fact that Ron Walker thinks F1 sounds too quiet is even a mainstream news item is the problem, not google's sorting order :lol:

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I don't think Bernie or FIA want to take that gamble! Far better for the sport to hold on to big manufacturers rather than risk losing them.

And Honda re-entering shows that F1 has done the right thing (in terms of securing its future by attracting big manufacturers), even if there are fans out there who don't like the new formula

That may be so but if the fans don't like the new formula big manufacturer or not what future does F1 have if they lose their fans. I think that's a bigger risk for F1 if in the event things don't settle down & the FIA ignore the fans

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Aye.

I tend to agree with you namechanged, however I think during the course of the year the situation will become clearer once there's been enough races to establish how the fans are reacting once they've been trackside. Thus far there's only been Melbourne and there appears to be so many experts on the matter through this forum that were not at the race.

Edited by Apples127

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No, I haven't been to a Grand Prix in 2014, but I can imagine an F1 car quieter and with a bit of turbo noise thrown in, albeit very quietly whistling.gif However, in all seriousness, I think you missed the point.

The noise is/was an added bonus, but it was more fun for me to watch the drivers struggling to control the cars in the rain than the outright noise. To that extent, even the classic car race that was on after the main event was more enjoyable to watch than F1 in the dry. The classic cars really were struggling for grip and so had spins, etc and you knew that drivers who could not only get around Bridge, but also set themselves up for a pass into the next bend were really on the money and I don't have to be deafened to appreciate that.

People with agendas grasping onto any tiny nugget they can to make a name for themselves is nothing new in F1, nor in life in general. It's almost like a self fulfilling prophecy at times, especially these days when it is so easy to get media coverage over anything. I am pretty certain Kylie Minogue farting could generate more media interest than the revolt over the noise of F1 engines.

It's also interesting that when doing a google search for Ron Walker, you get news about how bad F1 engines sound before information about the cancer drug that saved his life. This is a fairly telling illustration of the modern media. It's also quite interesting there is a suggestion that he is 'too close' to Bernie. Isn't Bernie moaning about the sound of F1 engines too? Coincidence or what?? laugh.png

Perhaps classic cars are your bag Pabloh20, since when are F1 cars supposed to handle like classic cars? Everyone is entitled to their opinion, you like watching classic cars out of control I prefer to watch & listen to an F1 car pass me by that leaves me with goose bumps.

Say what you will about Ron Walker, however, remember, like me he was actually at the Melbourne race so is speaking from first hand experience & whether he's close to Bernie or not is irrelevant. It's been well documented Bernie has been against this new formula from the very onset. Bernie has made F1 what it is today by building it up over 30+ years, not enough people give him credit for that instead I read derogatory comments about him, people calling him names which is unacceptable. We know F1 for what it is today because he has made it the glamorous exotic high octane show with it's huge world audience, celebrity following, fame, money the lot. If F1 had been in the wrong hands for the past 30 years it could very well have become a 2 bit low profile European series that nobody outside of Europe pays any attention to.

Edited by Apples127

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I tend to agree with you namechanged, however I think during the course of the year the situation will become clearer once there's been enough races to establish how the fans are reacting once they've been trackside. Thus far there's only been Melbourne and there appears to be so many experts on the matter through this forum that were not at the race.

Mate whats with the attitude? You come accross as your opinion is all that matters and everyone else's is incorrect, like when you asked me if I've been to a gp, I've been to plenty of champcar races here where the sound level would be almost the same, not same sound, but the same loudness, therefore I could make an assumption on how they would sound and still that isn't good enough for you. Mate simple, you don't like it now, don't watch it, simple as, you gotta learn to take critism, wheather you know your right or not or others will just have no intrest in what you have to say, it's a simple as that, iam already starting to get over your constant rants on the sound, and I don't want to be as I can see you possess an extensive knowledge of the sport, but to come on here and see you basically having a go at everyone here labelling them sarcastically, "experts" is not fair and iam shocked to see that come from someone of mature age and experience.

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