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Apples127

Sounds About Engine Noise

246 posts in this topic

FIA has and always will ignore fans, except when they have there hand out when you want to see a race.

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If my asking simple questions such as "have you been to a Grand Prix" or stating simple facts like "Ron Walker is speaking first hand" or that I watched people leave the Melbourne circuit in disgust with an hour to go in FP2 is deemed as attitude to you then I think you're missing the point. Either you can't handle it when I take people to task who are debating with me that have either not been to a Grand Prix or been track side with the 2014 cars or you don't like hearing facts.

I find it quite amusing that some people would seem to argue black & blue with me that have never even been to a race so on what grounds of experience are they speaking from?. And to be honest with you I'm tired of your attitude and you jumping all over me when I state a fact you don't like. If you don't like the content of this thread then don't read it. If you're going to continue to contribute in such a strong tone perhaps only stipulate your views on matters you have experience with. To date anything regarding attending a Grand Prix you have no experience with

Edited by Apples127

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So watching it since I was 5 yrs old on tv doesn't count for experience? I already admitted I havnt been and that watching it on tv is all I really know, but sound doesn't make your experience any different doesn't it? Of course it does if your there, but as the overall topic of the sport? IMO I don't think so, and it's a shame people can't look past the sound, as Ive said many times before, I do agree with you, I hate the sound, but to me at home watching on tv, really doesn't make much difference and IMO shouldn't to you either, unless your loaded and are going to attend every single race trackside, at some point you'll watch it on tv and realise, it's not really an issue, compared to the race we just saw. I would be delighted if they changed the tone but if the races continue as we saw in Melbourne, I can live with that. As for "jumping all over you" whats that about? Do you dissect what I post and only remember what you want? Can't you remember how many times I said I agree with you? But you don't need to talk about it every single post, we all know you don't like it, the other day, you posted the same topic in 3 different sections, wtf was that? That's not trying to force your opinion onto others?

Edited by WebRic

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The topics of the threads I've started have been derived around the sound so I don't understand why you keep telling me to stop mentioning it when it's the essence of the discussion. How the races look on TV is another matter and I recorded the Melbourne race and have since watched it and yes you're right that they look spectacular under acceleration.

F1 & it's promoters rely on ticket sales and my underlying concern which is yet to be determined is that should the noise fester into a major debacle that results in people not buying tickets and attending Grands Prix next year puts the sport at grave risk. In the unlikely event that should occur how long do you think the races will air on TV with empty grand stands? Force India's boss, Vijay stated this in Melbourne.

Yes I am an opinionated person and my post in three different sections is out of concern for the sport & to rally discussion about the concept of inviting sports car manufacturers to the sport who's image is in keeping with F1. I haven't seen or read anything recently about that concept but it may have already been covered long ago as I don't claim to have read everything on the internet about F1.

One post of yours from a different thread that I absolutely agree with hands down is that Ayrton Senna was in a league of his own. My point is the comments I make in the threads I started are about a very hot topic that will continue until at least F1 returns to Europe. Who knows what might happen then, it very may well fizzle into nothing and the crowds accept it but I think it's too early to determine that yet

Edited by Apples127

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Perhaps classic cars are your bag Pabloh20, since when are F1 cars supposed to handle like classic cars? Everyone is entitled to their opinion, you like watching classic cars out of control I prefer to watch & listen to an F1 car pass me by that leaves me with goose bumps.Say what you will about Ron Walker, however, remember, like me he was actually at the Melbourne race so is speaking from first hand experience & whether he's close to Bernie or not is irrelevant. It's been well documented Bernie has been against this new formula from the very onset. Bernie has made F1 what it is today by building it up over 30+ years, not enough people give him credit for that instead I read derogatory comments about him, people calling him names which is unacceptable. We know F1 for what it is today because he has made it the glamorous exotic high octane show with it's huge world audience, celebrity following, fame, money the lot. If F1 had been in the wrong hands for the past 30 years it could very well have become a 2 bit low profile European series that nobody outside of Europe pays any attention to.

When or where did I say F1 cars are supposed to handle like classic cars? If you had actually read it correctly and indeed any previous posts, you would see I was referencing the skill of the drivers involved, not that I prefer classic cars over F1. Which is why I also mentioned that watching the F1 cars in the rain at Bridge corner was much more entertaining than in the dry. I am not sure how else I can reference driver skill without you jumping to conclusions of which race series I prefer?

If you prefer to have the noise of an F1 car to leave you with goose bumps, that's fine, that's your opinion, however all other people were trying to tell you that not everybody will feel the same way. And rather like you jumping to conclusions and saying I must prefer classic cars over F1, maybe if I suggested that if engine noise is that important to you then maybe drag racing would be your bag? You would probably think I was talking complete bollocks for jumping to that conclusion.

Again, I am not sure where I called Bernie names? However, you are correct, Bernie has been against this from the start and if Ron Walker is close to him, I have no idea if he is, I just saw it on google, then maybe he has an agenda. Also, maybe Ron Walker just doesn't like the sound of the new engines, that's fine, it's his opinion after all, however, to say it is going to be the death of F1 is sensationalism at best. Eric Boullier was at the race too, probably much closer than Roy Walker and he didn't see the problem, although accepts if fans complain then it can't be dismissed, but said the focus should be on the positives of the new engines, not just the noise. Claire Williams was also at the race, she said she likes the sound of the new engines, but then she just loves watching F1 cars go around a track. That is pretty much what a few people on here are saying too, so it's not just the opinions of 'people who have not seen the 2014 F1 cars live', as you put it. You can't also ignore the fact that maybe it's a lot better on the ears of the people who have to work around the cars all the time.

I can't really formulate an opinion on Bernie. Yes, he has made F1 what it is today, but let's not ignore the fact that he has made an awful lot of money out of it too. You are right in that F1 had been in the wrong hands for the last 30yrs that it could be much worse, but you could also argue that if it had been in the hands of somebody who truly loved F1 then it could be an awful lot better too. We will never know.

Edited by pabloh20

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Perhaps classic cars are your bag Pabloh20, since when are F1 cars supposed to handle like classic cars? Everyone is entitled to their opinion, you like watching classic cars out of control I prefer to watch & listen to an F1 car pass me by that leaves me with goose bumps.

Say what you will about Ron Walker, however, remember, like me he was actually at the Melbourne race so is speaking from first hand experience & whether he's close to Bernie or not is irrelevant. It's been well documented Bernie has been against this new formula from the very onset. Bernie has made F1 what it is today by building it up over 30+ years, not enough people give him credit for that instead I read derogatory comments about him, people calling him names which is unacceptable. We know F1 for what it is today because he has made it the glamorous exotic high octane show with it's huge world audience, celebrity following, fame, money the lot. If F1 had been in the wrong hands for the past 30 years it could very well have become a 2 bit low profile European series that nobody outside of Europe pays any attention to.

Edited by Apples127

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When or where did I say F1 cars are supposed to handle like classic cars? If you had actually read it correctly and indeed any previous posts, you would see I was referencing the skill of the drivers involved, not that I prefer classic cars over F1. Which is why I also mentioned that watching the F1 cars in the rain at Bridge corner was much more entertaining than in the dry. I am not sure how else I can reference driver skill without you jumping to conclusions of which race series I prefer?

If you prefer to have the noise of an F1 car to leave you with goose bumps, that's fine, that's your opinion, however all other people were trying to tell you that not everybody will feel the same way. And rather like you jumping to conclusions and saying I must prefer classic cars over F1, maybe if I suggested that if engine noise is that important to you then maybe drag racing would be your bag? You would probably think I was talking complete bollocks for jumping to that conclusion.

Again, I am not sure where I called Bernie names? However, you are correct, Bernie has been against this from the start and if Ron Walker is close to him, I have no idea if he is, I just saw it on google, then maybe he has an agenda. Also, maybe Ron Walker just doesn't like the sound of the new engines, that's fine, it's his opinion after all, however, to say it is going to be the death of F1 is sensationalism at best. Eric Boullier was at the race too, probably much closer than Roy Walker and he didn't see the problem, although accepts if fans complain then it can't be dismissed, but said the focus should be on the positives of the new engines, not just the noise. Claire Williams was also at the race, she said she likes the sound of the new engines, but then she just loves watching F1 cars go around a track. That is pretty much what a few people on here are saying too, so it's not just the opinions of 'people who have not seen the 2014 F1 cars live', as you put it. You can't also ignore the fact that maybe it's a lot better on the ears of the people who have to work around the cars all the time.

I can't really formulate an opinion on Bernie. Yes, he has made F1 what it is today, but let's not ignore the fact that he has made an awful lot of money out of it too. You are right in that F1 had been in the wrong hands for the last 30yrs that it could be much worse, but you could also argue that if it had been in the hands of somebody who truly loved F1 then it could be an awful lot better too. We will never know.

Firstly your second paragraph stated that the classic cars out of control was more enjoyable than the main event which lead me to believe you prefer classic car racing. Secondly, I never accused you of calling Bernie names what I said was I've read "people" have written derogatory things about him and called him names. Finally, if F1 hadn't taken the sound away in the first place that's its had since it's inception then I wouldn't have to consider going to drag racing to get a fix of noise. Oh and today I read on GPToday that Olivier Panis doesn't approve of the new formula and I quote "I think the sound is part of formula one, because it allows you feel the power of these machines,"

Edited by Apples127

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Firstly your second paragraph stated that the classic cars out of control was more enjoyable than the main event which lead me to believe you prefer classic car racing. Secondly, I never accused you of calling Bernie names what I said was I've read "people" have written derogatory things about him and called him names. Finally, if F1 hadn't taken the sound away in the first place that's its had since it's inception then I wouldn't have to consider going to drag racing to get a fix of noise. Oh and today I read on GPToday that Olivier Panis doesn't approve of the new formula and I quote "I think the sound is part of formula one, because it allows you feel the power of these machines,"

What I actually said was -

The noise is/was an added bonus, but it was more fun for me to watch the drivers struggling to control the cars in the rain than the outright noise. To that extent, even the classic car race that was on after the main event was more enjoyable to watch than F1 in the dry.

Olivier Panis is entitled to his opinion just like everybody else.

I would imagine the 2014 F1 engine is still noisier than a fair few other F1 engines we have had over the years, especially when they only used to rev to 12000rpm or less. According to the FIA, last years engines were 145db, this year's engines are 134db.

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I agree that those in charge of F1 rarely seem to care what the fans think. If they did, the double-points rule would not exist and is proof that no-one gives a [email protected] what the fans want.

An article here which has the comments of Vettel, Rosberg & Button on the engine noise. I think I like Button's comments the bestest!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/26768206

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What I actually said was -

The noise is/was an added bonus, but it was more fun for me to watch the drivers struggling to control the cars in the rain than the outright noise. To that extent, even the classic car race that was on after the main event was more enjoyable to watch than F1 in the dry.

Olivier Panis is entitled to his opinion just like everybody else.

I would imagine the 2014 F1 engine is still noisier than a fair few other F1 engines we have had over the years, especially when they only used to rev to 12000rpm or less. According to the FIA, last years engines were 145db, this year's engines are 134db.

That's where you are wrong my friend, even when they had turbo's in the 1980's that revved to 12,000rpm they were much louder than this years engines as they didn't have electric power combined with combustion engine and their exhausts were not a tiny single pee shooter hanging out the back. The decibel readings do not reflect the true impact of actual sound, this I can assure you because I've been track side and heard them all. That's why nobody in the crowd at this years race had ear plugs in.

Look it's very frustrating for me to try to explain to people that haven't been track side before what it's actually like - I've said it before & I'll say it again there was nothing on earth that sounded like an F1 car until this year. I've taken many people to F1 track side over the years that had never been before & as much as I try to explain or warn them what they sound like has never being able to do justice until they've heard themselves in person - in ever case everyone has been absolutely overwhelmed, thrilled excitedly and amazed!

I went to the Adelaide Grand Prix in 1993 (last race Senna won) & I watched my best friend who was at his first Grand Prix turn into an absolute dribbling mess when the V12 Ferrari's passed him by and within 5 minutes of that happening he bought a flag, a hat & Tee shirt & has being a Ferrari fan ever since. He still to this day recalls with absolute clarity 20 years later what they sounded like and what it did to him. Need I say more.....

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I think we need to cut Mr Apples a bit of slack and put our handbags away; I understand the point he's making.

I can't see that he is saying a person's opinion is invalid just because they haven't been to a GP; he's saying that it's hard to appreciate what the sound aspect does for the sport if you haven't experienced it for yourself, and thus he disagrees with someone saying 'sound doesn't matter' when that person has not experienced the blow-your-pants-off noise that F1 cars used to make.

Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion which thankfully we've all acknowledged, however I must admit if you're an f1 fan then going to see it live with the 'old' noise really did put a big smile on your face. Yes there's more to the whole spectacle than just the noise, but I can tell you the noise played a major part.

Of course watching on TV, makes no difference. But I feel 99% sure if I went to silverstone I'd be disappointed by the noise, because when I've been previously the noise is incredible and I love it.

In 2014 I dont think audience figures will be affected; what will be interesting is whether 2015 audience levels are affected, once the die-hard GP-attenders have already had a taste of watching the new formula in person.

Edited by namechanged

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That's where you are wrong my friend, even when they had turbo's in the 1980's that revved to 12,000rpm they were much louder than this years engines as they didn't have electric power combined with combustion engine and their exhausts were not a tiny single pee shooter hanging out the back. The decibel readings do not reflect the true impact of actual sound, this I can assure you because I've been track side and heard them all. That's why nobody in the crowd at this years race had ear plugs in.

Look it's very frustrating for me to try to explain to people that haven't been track side before what it's actually like - I've said it before & I'll say it again there was nothing on earth that sounded like an F1 car until this year. I've taken many people to F1 track side over the years that had never been before & as much as I try to explain or warn them what they sound like has never being able to do justice until they've heard themselves in person - in ever case everyone has been absolutely overwhelmed, thrilled excitedly and amazed!

I went to the Adelaide Grand Prix in 1993 (last race Senna won) & I watched my best friend who was at his first Grand Prix turn into an absolute dribbling mess when the V12 Ferrari's passed him by and within 5 minutes of that happening he bought a flag, a hat & Tee shirt & has being a Ferrari fan ever since. He still to this day recalls with absolute clarity 20 years later what they sounded like and what it did to him. Need I say more.....

Well, I certainly don't remember the noise of F1 engines being quite like recent years when they have been revving to 18000rpm, or in previous years when some of them were revving to 20000rpm, before it was capped. I would love to see some comparisons of this, as I would imagine the noise has fluctuated over the years. However, the only thing I have found so far is the FIA quote saying there is only an 11db difference.

Just for info how long have you been going trackside and heard all the F1 engines? I mean are we talking back to the 80s, 70s, 60s??

And I am not even going to get into the argument of complaining about the lack of F1 noise then inferring that in all the previous years the crowd had ear plugs in, that would make no sense to me.

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I think we need to cut Mr Apples a bit of slack and put our handbags away; I understand the point he's making.

I can't see that he is saying a person's opinion is invalid just because they haven't been to a GP; he's saying that it's hard to appreciate what the sound aspect does for the sport if you haven't experienced it for yourself, and thus he disagrees with someone saying 'sound doesn't matter' when that person has not experienced the blow-your-pants-off noise that F1 cars used to make.

Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion which thankfully we've all acknowledged, however I must admit if you're an f1 fan then going to see it live with the 'old' noise really did put a big smile on your face. Yes there's more to the whole spectacle than just the noise, but I can tell you the noise played a major part.

Of course watching on TV, makes no difference. But I feel 99% sure if I went to silverstone I'd be disappointed by the noise, because when I've been previously the noise is incredible and I love it.

In 2014 I dont think audience figures will be affected; what will be interesting is whether 2015 audience levels are affected, once the die-hard GP-attenders have already had a taste of watching the new formula in person.

I don't think that's the case at all, Jem, I think plenty of slack and understanding has been given.

However, as I have said, as other people have said, the noise is great, it's just not the be all and end all for us. That's just our opinion, it doesn't make it right or wrong and it doesn't make Apple's opinion any less valid. He has experienced it for himself, after all, so he is not just jumping on somebody else's band wagon and I have no problem with that. I think what people object to is the sensationalism of the death of F1.

At the end of the day, if it becomes that much of an issue, then I wouldn't have thought it would take that much to change the noise levels. Stick a cherry bomb exhaust on it, that will keep them happy :lol:

Edited by pabloh20

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Well, I certainly don't remember the noise of F1 engines being quite like recent years when they have been revving to 18000rpm, or in previous years when some of them were revving to 20000rpm, before it was capped. I would love to see some comparisons of this, as I would imagine the noise has fluctuated over the years. However, the only thing I have found so far is the FIA quote saying there is only an 11db difference.

Just for info how long have you been going trackside and heard all the F1 engines? I mean are we talking back to the 80s, 70s, 60s??

And I am not even going to get into the argument of complaining about the lack of F1 noise then inferring that in all the previous years the crowd had ear plugs in, that would make no sense to me.

I've being attending Grands Prix since the early 1990's when they were normally aspirated but have heard a 1980's car at a demonstration. The difference is the more cylinders the higher pitch shrill there is as to why the V12's sounded so awesome. At the time the V12's were only revving to 17,000rpm so I'd love to hear how they would've sounded if they'd continued and revved at 20,000rpm. Normally aspirated engines produce a screaming shrill that a turbo never will, they're much more drony sounding.

I would love for there to be a demonstration of the 1990's V12's & the early 2000's V10's & this years engines - there would be no contest from the crowd as to which they'd prefer & the speed comparison demo they do each year in Melbourne proved that as the F1 car they used this year was a 2011 Red Bull & it just emphasized how much better it sounded than this years cars by the rise it got from the crowd. It was quite depressing actually as just as everyone got excited by the V8 Red Bull we then crashed to a disappointing reality of this years car that you couldn't hear approaching the end of the straight before turn 1 until it started to started to wind up through the corner - totally underwhelming as a sort of vacuum cleaning drone went by.

If you want a comparison search V12 F1 Ferrari sounds on YouTube

Edited by Apples127

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I've being attending Grands Prix since the early 1990's when they were normally aspirated but have heard a 1980's car at a demonstration. The difference is the more cylinders the higher pitch shrill there is as to why the V12's sounded so awesome. At the time the V12's were only revving to 17,000rpm so I'd love to hear how they would've sounded if they'd continued and revved at 20,000rpm. Normally aspirated engines produce a screaming shrill that a turbo never will, they're much more drony sounding.

I would love for there to be a demonstration of the 1990's V12's & the early 2000's V10's & this years engines - there would be no contest from the crowd as to which they'd prefer & the speed comparison demo they do each year in Melbourne proved that as the F1 car they used this year was a 2011 Red Bull & it just emphasized how much better it sounded than this years cars by the rise it got from the crowd. It was quite depressing actually as just as everyone got excited by the V8 Red Bull we then crashed to a disappointing reality of this years car that you couldn't hear approaching the end of the straight before turn 1 until it started to started to wind up through the corner - totally underwhelming as a sort of vacuum cleaning drone went by.

If you want a comparison search V12 F1 Ferrari sounds on YouTube

I have no doubt at all that it wouldn't just be the fans at Melbourne who preferred the sound of the older engines, I think it would that would be pretty much most F1 fans anyway, given the choice, as long as it doesn't impact on other areas. I don't think that's the point in question. However, like every other change in F1, it is what it is and we have what we have until they change it again.

I have been watching F1 races on tv for many a year. I have already heard the F1 engines since the 70s in that sort of format, I don't need to look at a youtube video for that. I meant a proper comparison, measuring sound output, etc :lol:

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I agree that those in charge of F1 rarely seem to care what the fans think. If they did, the double-points rule would not exist and is proof that no-one gives a [email protected] what the fans want.

An article here which has the comments of Vettel, Rosberg & Button on the engine noise. I think I like Button's comments the bestest!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/26768206

Vettel is a man after my own heart! Love it!

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Even the drivers disagree. You have Vettel saying (and this is his exact words) "it's sh*t", Jenson saying "us drivers don't care about the noise, if you don't like it go away" and Alonso sitting on the fence cos he knows people will criticise him whatever he says. Panis dislikes it too, Rosberg thinks it's ok...change is always going to cause a stir and discontent cos you can never please everyone.

I still think we're all going to get used to it and this time next year none of us will care. Despite all its changes over the years, F1 still has a huge loyal fanbase and I dont think that will change.

Would I still go to silverstone (if I could afford it) knowing that the noise won't be as loud as before? Yes.

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I think we need to cut Mr Apples a bit of slack and put our handbags away; I understand the point he's making.

I can't see that he is saying a person's opinion is invalid just because they haven't been to a GP; he's saying that it's hard to appreciate what the sound aspect does for the sport if you haven't experienced it for yourself, and thus he disagrees with someone saying 'sound doesn't matter' when that person has not experienced the blow-your-pants-off noise that F1 cars used to make.

Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion which thankfully we've all acknowledged, however I must admit if you're an f1 fan then going to see it live with the 'old' noise really did put a big smile on your face. Yes there's more to the whole spectacle than just the noise, but I can tell you the noise played a major part.

Of course watching on TV, makes no difference. But I feel 99% sure if I went to silverstone I'd be disappointed by the noise, because when I've been previously the noise is incredible and I love it.

In 2014 I dont think audience figures will be affected; what will be interesting is whether 2015 audience levels are affected, once the die-hard GP-attenders have already had a taste of watching the new formula in person.

Thank you namechanged - finally someone who gets what I'm trying to say

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Even the drivers disagree. You have Vettel saying (and this is his exact words) "it's sh*t", Jenson saying "us drivers don't care about the noise, if you don't like it go away" and Alonso sitting on the fence cos he knows people will criticise him whatever he says. Panis dislikes it too, Rosberg thinks it's ok...change is always going to cause a stir and discontent cos you can never please everyone.

I still think we're all going to get used to it and this time next year none of us will care. Despite all its changes over the years, F1 still has a huge loyal fanbase and I dont think that will change.

Would I still go to silverstone (if I could afford it) knowing that the noise won't be as loud as before? Yes.

Nutshell.

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Something that vegetarians eat while pretending that it's really meat. No, I don't understand it either.

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