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Emmcee

Will This Year Make Or Break Vettel?

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This is the season we have been waiting for and it's already of to a bang with champs Redbull really struggling to do anything as of yet. What if Redbull and I hope not for Ricciardo's sake,really struggle. Will this change your mind on Vettel and his so called legacy? It will most certain make people who said his success was down the car, cement there opinion even more and why not? As he has only dominated one era so far, iam not taken away what he has achieved, certainly not, as I've said before, he is remarkable, no matter how much I loathe him, but if he struggles this year, how good was he really? I mean others will be struggling to so how do you make an assumption out of that? Well you basically can't, but like I mentioned before, it won't stop the comments, they'll gain more fire. I see it like this. He dominated so much, he seems to have control of every situation he encounters, if he fails by previous years standards, it can't be good for him, as we have seen Schumi so dominant in quite a few eras and alonso and kimi also, but in saying that, how many thought Schumi would be fine after leaving Benetton and battling those Mclaren's of hakkinen and coulthard? Most I bet and how often did he looked puzzled and confused? But he stuck it out and it paid of big time, can you see seb doing the same? Not me. He needs to be challenging for wins even if the car is far from it, just like Alonso has done for the past 4 seasons, he does this, ill forever back him and support his efforts, as that would proove to me, his last four world titles on the trot, WERE earned 100% and not so "phoney" looking, as we know how fast that Redbull has been for him and Mark. This is just my opinions and thoughts, don't BBQ me if I have said something about seb you don't like, it's just an opinion. And I do rate him as a superb driver, but he is missing something that all these greats have.

This is a post on his "greatness/legacy/legend" as an all time great, not for now.

Hope you enjoy and have a think.

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This is going to restart the argument we were all having a couple of weeks ago lol.

I've been saying all along I hope RBR get it badly wrong this year so that we can see how Seb handles it. I expect he'll do great things in a bad car, but I want to see it happen before I admit that he really is up there with schuey, senna etc.

Look what Senna did in a bad mclaren in '92 and '93. I want to see what Seb does in a bad car. Maybe he'll get frustrated and keep having incidents in races, then what will everyone say? Oh we didnt realise that actually he's not that great? I can't wait to find out.

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Well, suddenly he has a car that appears to be mid-field'ish, if it even finishes. However, in saying that, one can not excuse the fact that RBR will turn the car around, and this is just the first week of testing with brand new cars with a whole new design philo...phee...filofos....idea as the starting point. The cooling aspect would be the first to-do for Newey and co, and frankly, the easiest to address.

Renault, however, have a few more issues, and if these are not resolved, then it is going to be a long season for anyone with French horses behind their heads, not just Seb.

We do not know if the chassis, suspension, and aero is up to snuff on the car, as frankly, they just haven't done any laps yet, thanks mostly to those damn Frenchies. What we do know, is that Newey is the man you'd want right at this juncture; he is the best there ever has been in F1, and probably no other designer will emulate him again (they simply don't have the same grounding as Adrian had as he moved up through the ranks of motorsport).

At Leyton House he designed a car that at the start of the season (think from memory it was their second season), that didn't perform as expected. But come mid-season, they were challenging at the front again (will have to find the Motorsport interview again to go over some of the details) becuase Adrian figured it out. And on a next to nothing budget too.

So, Seb will get a good car. Eventually. And that "eventually" will depend lagely on Renault, and not the car I feel.

Seb (and Danny Bhouy) will need to be patient. And that is about it, for I have a good feeling the chassis itself is not the issue.

Seb can't lose. His image won't be bent out of line in the slightest. If the car remains a dog, Renault will get the blame for the most part, and what can a driver do if the engine keeps breaking? If Renault sort the engine, and the chassis isn't half bad, then Seb stands an equal chance of winning the title alongside Hammy, Kimi, Alonso, Nico, and Jenson (not keen on thinking Kev-mate can be consistent enough to warrant him staying in touch with their Jense). I do beleive though, engine failures taken out of the equation, that Danny-Bhouy will have a hard time of hanging onto Seb's coat tails when they both finish a race.

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I don't know, I got a funny feeling dan is going to be a suprise, I Beleive he will do more than Webber. If not, then Mark has been seriously underrated. I think most people need to see him at the front reguard less for him to be in senna/Schumi league. Titles, smitles, iam talking about actual,raw talent. Schumi prooves he can win in more than one car and a number of occasions, he had 20+ wins when he joined Ferrari. Seb has won in the toro rosso but needs to win in something to get that "fluke" rubbed of his first winning trophy. Some say he earned it, while others like myself think TR just hit the setup on the head that weekend, afterall it was wet which would have helped TR's top end deferential.

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Seb did an incredible job to win at Monza 2008, just like Hill nearly winning Hungary '97, the setup and tyres were perfect on the day but would was still a perfect drive.

But that was one race and I will still always come back to the fact Maldonado got a pole & win with williams and that was in the dry! So I still have a need that needs to be fulfilled, ie Seb in a bad car.

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What amazes me about seb is his skill on cold tyres, just incredible, if you've ever races go-karts, you'll know how hard a skill that is to master, not only that he is better than the top 21 drivers in the world, weather or not it's the car, he still drove it the best. I still haven't really seen a tactical drive so to speak from him. Schumi was quite coy in his race strategy and could win via that if the car wasn't on par. Seb just drives away at the beginning. We will see where that Redbull is supposed to be and where he is going to put it. Until then I still see him as the greatest driver of the past era but that's it.

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If this year RB10 is not a good enough car will be Vettel's oportunity to prove himself. Don't get me wrong, he is a great driver nonetheless... He has proved that in his 1st year in STR, but i want to see him fighting in the middle of the grid. He has done great races, especially in 2012 (Abu Dhabi) but i think that he had the luck with him, while Alonso , was unlucky and had far worse car. (To be fair Alonso had some luck too in 2012 in Malaysia GP and Valencia). I consider Alonso a nanomilimeter ahead of Vettel, both are greats, and if this year RB fights in the middle of the pack and Vettel again is fighting for podiums (like Alonso in 2012 with that crap car), i will consider Seb THE BEST. I was watching this guy since his first test with williams BMW and i saw his talent in his free practice appearences in 2006... He is already a great to me...!

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I saw Seb's very first F1 race, when he replaced the injured Kubica at the Indy race. I was very impressed with his talent from the get go. Sure, he has ad a dominant car this past 4 years. But, he does have the raw talent to drive and will be able to overcome any early flaws in the RBR. There is no reason to believe that Newey will not be able to correct any flaws in the car. However, the engine issues are a Renault problem, not Red Bulls. While, at heart I have been and always will be a McLaren fan. I rooted for Seb to get his 4 title. Mostly, because he is not a whiney little girl like Alonso and Hamilton are about every little problem. I sincerely hope Massa, out shines Alonso every race this year.

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What you mean? He dummy spits better than all, might not carry on like some, but the way he carries himself, he thinks his sh!7 don't stink, has no respect for anyone when it comes to a collision, everyone's fault but his. Turkey 2010, classic example. Please don't say it was webbers fault, why? Because he didnt move out of his way?

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None of this matters too much, really.

And, besides, FIA made last year's RB work like a charm when all was lost for them.

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He did very well in his 1st full season in 2008 in a STR, 8th for constructors , 8th for driver standings.

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Ahhh, this same old argument again.

Vettel is a proven quanity. He does NOT need to prove anything further. He can retire today, and be considered an all time great. No * asteriks beside his name in the history books either.

I just hope RBR and Renault get their stuff together and produce a good car. Otherwise it will fuel the illiterate Vettel haters with "proof" that he was a no good, bum driver who only won because Newey designed his car. But you know what, not even Senna himself could win in a Marussia, no one can. So we go back all the way to the argument that it is a combination of driver, car and team personal that gives you the best chance of winning.

Vettel's a legend period. He doesn't need to change teams, win in other cars, to prove it to anyone. You can either accept it or not.

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I saw Seb's very first F1 race, when he replaced the injured Kubica at the Indy race. I was very impressed with his talent from the get go. Sure, he has ad a dominant car this past 4 years. But, he does have the raw talent to drive and will be able to overcome any early flaws in the RBR. There is no reason to believe that Newey will not be able to correct any flaws in the car. However, the engine issues are a Renault problem, not Red Bulls. While, at heart I have been and always will be a McLaren fan. I rooted for Seb to get his 4 title. Mostly, because he is not a whiney little girl like Alonso and Hamilton are about every little problem. I sincerely hope Massa, out shines Alonso every race this year.

lovely stuff

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Newey Champions:

Nigel Mansell

Alain Prost

(kinda) Damon Hill (I say "kinda" as Adrian jumped ship and was on gardening leave when Hill won, but it was Newey's car)

Mika Hakkinen (2 in a row)

Seb Vet (4 in a row)

And he fixed the suspension on the Amon F1 car after looking at it for 10-minutes at an Historic Race. Freak.

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Ahhh, this same old argument again.

Vettel is a proven quanity. He does NOT need to prove anything further. He can retire today, and be considered an all time great. No * asteriks beside his name in the history books either.

I just hope RBR and Renault get their stuff together and produce a good car. Otherwise it will fuel the illiterate Vettel haters with "proof" that he was a no good, bum driver who only won because Newey designed his car. But you know what, not even Senna himself could win in a Marussia, no one can. So we go back all the way to the argument that it is a combination of driver, car and team personal that gives you the best chance of winning.

Vettel's a legend period. He doesn't need to change teams, win in other cars, to prove it to anyone. You can either accept it or not.

Just for the record, senna almost won in a toleman at Monaco. If it wasn't for Prost frantically waving his arms about to get the race stopped, iam sure senna would have past him and won. I would rate the toleman on Marussia's level.

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I just hope RBR and Renault get their stuff together and produce a good car. Otherwise it will fuel the illiterate Vettel haters with "proof" that he was a no good, bum driver who only won because Newey designed his car. But you know what, not even Senna himself could win in a Marussia, no one can.

Actually I think RBR producing a bad car will do the opposite, ie it will give Seb a chance to show just how good he really is, and shut people like me and webric up! He's done incredible things and set new standards for this era, no doubt about it. But I'm not satisfied yet lol.

I'm not saying he should win in a Marussia, i just want to see how he performs in a car that isnt capable of winning consistently.

When Alonso moved back to Renault in '08 the car wasnt that good but it was still obvious how good the driver was. When mclaren got their '09 car wrong it was still obvious how good Hamilton was.

If there are no metaphorical asterisks by Vettel's 'legend' status, then why did other drivers happily acknowledge how great Schumacher was whilst he was still an active driver, but those same drivers refuse to acknowledge Vettel in the same way? Jealousy? I dont think so, cos otherwise they would've been jealous of Schumacher too.

They don't rate him up with Schumacher because he's spent 4 years in the best car (yes I know it wasnt the best at EVERY race) whilst the rest of them have had to endure various seasons in bad cars.

So I honestly think the best thing for Seb's "legend" is to start 2014 with an awful car and show us that he is a demi-god.

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Actually I think RBR producing a bad car will do the opposite, ie it will give Seb a chance to show just how good he really is, and shut people like me and webric up! He's done incredible things and set new standards for this era, no doubt about it. But I'm not satisfied yet lol.

I'm not saying he should win in a Marussia, i just want to see how he performs in a car that isnt capable of winning consistently.

When Alonso moved back to Renault in '08 the car wasnt that good but it was still obvious how good the driver was. When mclaren got their '09 car wrong it was still obvious how good Hamilton was.

If there are no metaphorical asterisks by Vettel's 'legend' status, then why did other drivers happily acknowledge how great Schumacher was whilst he was still an active driver, but those same drivers refuse to acknowledge Vettel in the same way? Jealousy? I dont think so, cos otherwise they would've been jealous of Schumacher too.

They don't rate him up with Schumacher because he's spent 4 years in the best car (yes I know it wasnt the best at EVERY race) whilst the rest of them have had to endure various seasons in bad cars.

So I honestly think the best thing for Seb's "legend" is to start 2014 with an awful car and show us that he is a demi-god.

Exactly, well said. Schumi though was able to execute a Ross brawn strategy to perfection. IMO schumis best win was Hungary 1998, Ferrari wasn't as quick as the Mclaren's of hakkinen and coulthard who were both 2 stopping, Schumi was 3. He had to find 21secs 19 laps to pull of the 3rd stop and take the lead, he did and drove to an amazing victory, I'd be 100% even more satisfied of Vettel has to and can win like this. That's what I see is missing, his ability to "outsmart" his opponents. One thing to just drive away to victories, than having to out fox everyone else as your car isn't up to speed, alonso is a classic example of this.

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This season will make Vettel. He has to prove to his critics that he can win in a bad car. That's if he wins in a bad car cos for all we know, Red Bull could be sandbagging & will have a strong car come Melbourne.

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Once the Ferrari started winning, Schumi was in possibly the most dominant car and team to have ever existed. So to use that as a reason why drivers looked up to him and then say some don't look up to Vettel doesn't make sense. There were plenty of drivers who despised Schumi. And there have been many instances where drivers have praised just how good Vettel is, even Webber himself has.

I'm personally over my limit in this endless discussion. It will never be solved, resolved, answered, finished, full stopped. It will go on in infinity.

I'll leave you with this thought. If it had been Vettel who suffered that ski accident and not Schumi, I bet you my entire life savings that every single driver past and present, every team principal, manager, commentator and journalist would have been praising just how good Vettel was.

There's nothing left to say on the matter. Vettel won in a Torro Rosso, then went on to become a 4x WDC. 4x in a row. He's made history. He doesn't need my praise of validation, nor anyone's viewpoint to change and admit he is a great. History will show he is. No matter what he does, people will always say... but....!!!! Maybe he should win in a pedal car wearing a bright blue pair of underpants. People will say hmmm, I don't know, not sure, he'll only be a great if he wins wearing red underpants. You see my point.

I'll be a fan no matter if he never wins again, and I will chear the loudest when he does win again.

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When Alonso moved back to Renault in '08 the car wasnt that good but it was still obvious how good the driver was. When mclaren got their '09 car wrong it was still obvious how good Hamilton was.

nope, you could see he lacked motivation, he was just plain obvious and standard, waiting for the next big thing to come along.... Needed his teammate to crash to bag a win, and he knew about it, no matter what ppl say!!

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Once the Ferrari started winning, Schumi was in possibly the most dominant car and team to have ever existed. So to use that as a reason why drivers looked up to him and then say some don't look up to Vettel doesn't make sense. There were plenty of drivers who despised Schumi. And there have been many instances where drivers have praised just how good Vettel is, even Webber himself has.

I'm personally over my limit in this endless discussion. It will never be solved, resolved, answered, finished, full stopped. It will go on in infinity.

I'll leave you with this thought. If it had been Vettel who suffered that ski accident and not Schumi, I bet you my entire life savings that every single driver past and present, every team principal, manager, commentator and journalist would have been praising just how good Vettel was.

There's nothing left to say on the matter. Vettel won in a Torro Rosso, then went on to become a 4x WDC. 4x in a row. He's made history. He doesn't need my praise of validation, nor anyone's viewpoint to change and admit he is a great. History will show he is. No matter what he does, people will always say... but....!!!! Maybe he should win in a pedal car wearing a bright blue pair of underpants. People will say hmmm, I don't know, not sure, he'll only be a great if he wins wearing red underpants. You see my point.

I'll be a fan no matter if he never wins again, and I will chear the loudest when he does win again.

And so you should! But I'll answer each point if I can:

Schumacher - once the Ferrari was dominant he did dominate, but by that point he'd also done remarkable things in bad Benettons and Ferraris. He was already talked about as one of the greats of all time well before 2001 (when ferrari started domination). Alonso was clear back in 05-06 about how much he admired and respected Schuey, yet look what Alonso says about Vettel!

Yep if Seb was in a coma there's no doubt the world would be saying how great he is but I don't see the relevance there sorry.

If he didnt need any more validation, then people wouldnt be asking for it would they? No-one disputes drivers like Schuey, Senna, Prost, even Hakkinen all being called 'greats' of the sport, yet a large portion of the F1 world does not yet wish to put Vettel up there yet.

So although I don't think him racing in bright underpants on the outside of his racesuit will change that, I do think that he can silence the lot of them (including me) by showing his mettle in a bad car, just like the other f1 greats did.

I must stress again I'm not taking anything away from what he has achieved - he cant possibly have done any more. Which is why I think it'd do him good to have a 'struggle' season so that Alonso will change his view, and so will I. Because don't get me wrong, if the Red Bull is terrible I fully expect Seb to still produce some moments of greatness.

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Once the Ferrari started winning, Schumi was in possibly the most dominant car and team to have ever existed. So to use that as a reason why drivers looked up to him and then say some don't look up to Vettel doesn't make sense. There were plenty of drivers who despised Schumi. And there have been many instances where drivers have praised just how good Vettel is, even Webber himself has.

I'm personally over my limit in this endless discussion. It will never be solved, resolved, answered, finished, full stopped. It will go on in infinity.

I'll leave you with this thought. If it had been Vettel who suffered that ski accident and not Schumi, I bet you my entire life savings that every single driver past and present, every team principal, manager, commentator and journalist would have been praising just how good Vettel was.

There's nothing left to say on the matter. Vettel won in a Torro Rosso, then went on to become a 4x WDC. 4x in a row. He's made history. He doesn't need my praise of validation, nor anyone's viewpoint to change and admit he is a great. History will show he is. No matter what he does, people will always say... but....!!!! Maybe he should win in a pedal car wearing a bright blue pair of underpants. People will say hmmm, I don't know, not sure, he'll only be a great if he wins wearing red underpants. You see my point.

I'll be a fan no matter if he never wins again, and I will chear the loudest when he does win again.

Yeah but Schumi built that Ferrari team, he knew he needed to get in order to turn Ferrari around. Drivers dispise Schumi simply because his will to win is so strong, others can't comprehend the extent he would go to and that's whats separates good drivers from greats. Vettel is unbeleivable, but yet has to really "fight" for victories, every win basically has been down to driving away at the start of each race. When he does have to fight to get to the front, he hits webber,button or even makes a silly mistake, Canada 2011 pushing when it wasn't needed.

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nope, you could see he lacked motivation, he was just plain obvious and standard, waiting for the next big thing to come along.... Needed his teammate to crash to bag a win, and he knew about it, no matter what ppl say!!

Yeah but his win in Fuji was a different story.

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Remember Vettle beat Hamilton fair and square in a STR in Brazil 2008. If you dont think hes made it yet, you most likley never will. But Yes It does make this year exciting seeing him fall and have the title up for grabs.

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