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HandyNZL

Haas Formula

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So we have a thread here that was started prior to Haas being announced as the 12th team. Eric summed things up nicely on the 4th April (post numero five) and I agree very much with what Eric has to say.

Over the last week it has been interesting reading what the nay-sayers have to say (in various media) about how it will be a complete flop. Eric covered most of the reasons as to why it wouldn't be a flop, but now that everything has been announced, and more of Haas' plans are being revealed, I thought it would be an opportune time to kick off a thread following the creation of this all new F1 team.

Topics of discussion early on:

Will it be a flop? If so, why do you think that?

Will he succeed? If so, again, why? What is "success" for a new team?

What drivers should he target - he has mentioned getting an experienced F1 driver on board (Scott Speed, anyone?)

Can Dallara deliver a good enough chassis?

Is Ferrari really his only engine option?

IMHO, I think he will succeed. FIrstly in having a car ready to compete in F1, which is a lot more than can be said for USF1. He is taking the correct route at this juncture in sub-contracting the design out to Dallara. Dallara, at the end of the day, produce the vast majority of single seater cars racing today, not least of all a GP2 car. Considering that the GP2 cars were not all that far off in times with Marussia, HRT and Caterham for most of their formative years, this is a company that, when given extra design scope between GP2 and F1 will be able to build a chassis capable of at least competing with Caterham and Marussia (or whatever name they will have next year).

This must be considered the definition of success for a "baby" team.

Haas has the money to pay drivers, not the other way around, which is what Marussia and Caterham are doing. This will mean, and no dis-credit to Marussia and Caterham jockeys, Haas can attract a reasonably skilled driver to fill the plug of "experienced driver". He is looking for someone technical that the whole team can learn off, so the options would have to be someone currently driving, near the end of their contracts, and that has never been a pay driver. So...

Button: A possibility, but would he want to do another few years like at Honda? He won't be at the pointy end, so he would know that going in, and perhaps being lapped would tarnish his WDC aura...although, that never stopped Schumacher with his Career 2.0. Button has the brains, the vast experience required, and is no slouch in terms of speed.

Rosberg: A slim to slimmer chance considering that he is now in one of the best cars and is in with a shot of the title. Not sure exactly when he is off contract, but he has an engineering mind, is quick, and is young enough to do a Schumacer/Ferrari-esque job and bring a small team forward.

Hulkenberg: My pick for the man Haas will actually target. Again young and hungry, but all importantly, keeps getting overlooked by the big name teams. He is fast, and his race craft is also very high. At Bahrain he held everyone behind him in those closing laps considerably down on power, and frustrated the heck out of Hamilton in Korea. He seems to forever be on one-year contracts waiting for that call up to Macca/Ferrari/RBR, but it's just not going to happen, especially at McLaren where van Doorne is likely to replace Button if not in 2015, but in 2016

Sutil: Ha...yeah right.

Massa: A bit long in the tooth, and I don't think he is much of a developer of cars. Nothing, at least, has ever been reported in the media that he is, so he would be a target if only for a small pay packet and vast experience.

Vettel: Massive long shot, but even if the stars aligned, Vettel is in the mould of a Senna - will always want to be where the car is the best, and he has an equal or better shot at winning the WDC.

Chico: Too young and inexperienced, but does show flashes of brilliance. However, I feel he still is engineered by the team, rather than the other way around. More of a monkey behind the wheel than a professor of motorsport.

As for engines...well, with the news that Haas may not field a car until 2016, this in my mind might mean he is looking at Honda. And why wouldn't you? You get the benefit of the Honda being in McLaren cars, and McLaren will not accept a Renault-esque hatchet job. Will they be as powerful as the Merc? Who knows. But the extra year Honda has this year to run the engine and systems in mule-chassis and cars means they should be a long way closer to bullet proof than any of the cars this year. Couple to that a possible relaxation of the 100kg fuel load non-sense, and Honda could provide a lightning fast package. For Haas to ride on the coat tail of that after a year of race development at McLaren, would a coup any team on the pitlane would want to have (bar Ferrari and Mercedes of course).

Just don't paint the car up like a US flag.....

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Will it be a flop? If so, why do you think that? Not a flop but most likely making up the numbers at the back. Can't expect more of a new team really.

Will he succeed? If so, again, why? What is "success" for a new team? Depends entirely on their budget I think. It'll need to be huge for them to even consider challenging the midfield let alone the frontrunners. And what talent are they recruiting?

What drivers should he target - he has mentioned getting an experienced F1 driver on board (Scott Speed, anyone?) - he's bound to want an experienced driver but I expect to see a has-been in the mould of Trulli/Villeneuve/Fisichella/Liuzzi. I don't think Button will go there, he's said before a few times he'll end his career at mclaren.

Can Dallara deliver a good enough chassis? No. Although this leads me again to wonder what talent they're recruiting.

Edited by namechanged

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A return of a Trulli train? I can't honestly see that happening...and if it does (or any of the other three), then Haas would lose all my respect in a millisecond.

Trulli is 40 this year (like all good folk msn-wink.gif ), hasn't been in F1 since the end of 2011, and wouldn't bring anything to the table about new cars. Probably too busy playing with his karts than thinking about lacing up his F1 boots again

JV - are you serious??? Well, I guess he kind of is by racing the Indy 500 this year, but I can only think he will be about as good as Jean Alesi. But then, I guess he can tell Haas that he has recent Dallara chassis experience.....

Fisichella is off racing sports cars (and doing quite well) but has been out of F1 even longer than Trulli (2009 was the last time). Again would bring nothing to the table for Haas to learn from about the new cars.

Liuzzi, last seen in 2011, is now off racing Super GT cars. Still reasonably young, but again zero experience with the new cars.

I think the main thing is that none of those four, or ANY driver that is not active this season, will be of much value to Haas. The new formula is very different to 2013 or older cars, and if you go down the track of following a driver that, whilst experienced in F1, as are the four above, without having driven the cars, then the wrong path in development can be taken quite easily (eg Lotus / Ferrari (to a lesser extent)).

If you break it down to pure engineering, then it really is a no brainer to utilise the leading open wheeler manufacturer in the world to design and build your chassis. Going at it on your own with un-heralded or "failed" F1 designers is more of a risk. Haas needs to come to the grid with a car that is reliable. It doesn't need to be a race winner, nor does it need to mix it with the upper mid grid. All they need is to make it out of Q3 more often than not, and from there you build onwards and upwards, gaining the top personnel as you go, and as you prove to be more viable both in financial terms and in worth to an engineer as a "next challenge" you will attract the next Newey**. Do not forget that it was not that long ago that RBR struggled to score points, let alone win anything.

**Tehnically unlikely to ever happen again, as engineers these days have not had the grounding that Newey had, or Brawn, or Head, etc for that matter. Once the Aldo Costa's, the Newey's, and the Head's resign, I think you are actually going to see a levelling of the field, as the next generation of designers are all of a muchness; schooled the same way/think the same way. Mike Gascoyne was supposedly the best of the next generation, but frankly, it always looked like he took his inspirations from a brick...

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I see this crashing and burning before it even gets of the ground, just like all the other previous American attempts. One thing I must say "HEY HAAS,IT'S NOt CHAMPCAR" even Montoya thinks he is insane thinking he can operate from the us instead of Europe. What is it with all these us teams wanting to enter thinking the approach is the same as champcar only to realise at the last moment there totally on the back foot and have to abort the project. If it could be done, why woundnt merc operate outside of Germany, Honda outside of Japan? Because it takes to long to implement parts into a car and test it. It's a flop from the get go IMO.

Edited by WebRic

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He's planning to base the team in America??? Well good luck with that Gene.

Methinks he should do a little more research. Or simply listen to JPM. And after listening to JPM, put JPM in the car cos I want him back in F1.

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Yep he plans to operate out of the states. Best joke all year so far IMO.

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All he has to do is have a meeting about the logistics and costs and within an hour of that meeting he'd already know that he'll need to base the team in Europe. Maybe he'll prove us all wrong, but I doubt it

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All he has to do is have a meeting about the logistics and costs and within an hour of that meeting he'd already know that he'll need to base the team in Europe. Maybe he'll prove us all wrong, but I doubt it

Yeah just a massive brain fart isn't it?

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Will it be a flop? If so, why do you think that?

Will he succeed? If so, again, why? What is "success" for a new team?

What drivers should he target - he has mentioned getting an experienced F1 driver on board (Scott Speed, anyone?)

Can Dallara deliver a good enough chassis?

Is Ferrari really his only engine option?

The keys to his success in NASCAR have been technical alliances, which I assume is why he is trying to pursue them in F1. That will make the difference. I'm still skeptical of his "we don't want sponsors" deal and not needing funded drivers. He isn't that wealthy (he's in the Fernandes/Mallya category; both teams relied on funded drivers to get going).

Success for a new team will be P10 for year one. Get the $40,000,000 prize. That's not impossible.

He wants someone who has raced this era, so it does have to be a driver from 2014 (or 2015, if he joins in 2016). Realistically, Grosjean or Vergne could be available and neither is a bad driver. Grosjean certainly can tell you how a team shouldn't be run. I'm not convinced he won't end up with Sauber's lineup of Sutil and Gutiérrez, which is underwhelming, but funded and one's experienced. He'll have to prove me wrong about not needing funded drivers. I don't believe it yet.

For U. S. Americans to develop, which he also wants to do (but not race in F1 right away), there's hype about the 15-year-old Formula 3 driver Santino Ferrucci, though I've never seen him race myself. Gustavo Menezes, Félix Serrallés, Alexander Rossi, Conor Daly, Camren Kaminsky, Jake Rosenzweig, Ryan Tveter...doing nothing for me, really. Serrallés might be the best of that bunch and I personally think he's best suited to IndyCar. Speaking of IndyCar, J. R. Hildebrand's brief times in Europe were all really good, and he's mostly rideless these days. Develop him as your young American if you must. I'd say Josef Newgarden, but he's tied up here. Probably the best, young U. S. open-wheel talent I can think of. No one is race-seat ready, and thankfully the team knows that.

The HRT Dallaras weren't great, but you get what you pay for. Dallara can build as good a car as you can afford, I suspect.

It all comes down to what McLaren's contract with Honda says, I suppose. Ferrari's always been very vocal about wanting a U. S. team, so that's a fit right away from the marketing side of it.

I see this crashing and burning before it even gets of the ground, just like all the other previous American attempts. One thing I must say "HEY HAAS,IT'S NOt CHAMPCAR" even Montoya thinks he is insane thinking he can operate from the us instead of Europe. What is it with all these us teams wanting to enter thinking the approach is the same as champcar only to realise at the last moment there totally on the back foot and have to abort the project. If it could be done, why woundnt merc operate outside of Germany, Honda outside of Japan? Because it takes to long to implement parts into a car and test it. It's a flop from the get go IMO.

"All the other previous American attempts" which constitute a total of one-and-one-half. The first being US F1, which was two con-men, a PR guy, and some engineers. The second being Cypher Group, which was the same engineers now without the con-men and the PR guy. So, I'm not sure that's relevant. Those programs failing had nothing to do with where they were based and everything to do with them being led by people who had no business leading an F1 team. Gene Haas runs a substantial business and a championship NASCAR team. I'm a little more confident in him than I am in Ken and Jason Anderson. (Note: Peter Windsor is probably capable of running an F1 team, but he did not run US F1. He was the PR guy. He was a public face for credibility, and instead lost some of his for a few years until he resurfaced. He had no clue what was going on there).

Haas has never raced in Champ Car which doesn't exist. There is nothing "Champ Car" about his approach yet. A "Champ Car" approach is to be based in Indianapolis, where the series didn't race, and announce your horrible driver lineup two days before the first practice session of the year, which is at the second race, because the first got canceled. You run on a budget of $30 the driver brought, some KFC gift cards you got for your birthday, and tons of debt to finish sixth in a four-car race. :P

All he has to do is have a meeting about the logistics and costs and within an hour of that meeting he'd already know that he'll need to base the team in Europe. Maybe he'll prove us all wrong, but I doubt it

Yes, Gene Haas runs a billion-dollar-revenue business and is a stumbling buffoon who, in spite of his accounting degree, doesn't understand money one bit. :)

No, there are two factors here:

1. Joint costs. The cost of doing this from the U. S. is balanced by the savings he gets from including his F1 team on the NASCAR campus. There are many things that will be cheaper for him by keeping it on one site that he already has and pays for. Those savings offset the added costs, and I would bet Gene Haas is a smart enough man to know that they offset them in a way that is far better for his program cost-wise than establishing a new race shop overseas. Any cost that is shared between the NASCAR factory and the F1 factory will be an added cost of 0 for Haas; put those costs in Charlotte for NASCAR and in England for F1, and you now pay the same cost twice.

Plus, his state-of-the-art wind tunnel is in Charlotte, and that was part of his sell for getting this team from the FIA. Hard to say, "look, I have a great wind tunnel...it's across the ocean from our factory" and convince people your team is going to work.

So, while it would probably be silly for a team like US F1 to establish a new factory in the U. S., Haas having an existing one that he can expand is likely going to be less costly than building an all-new one on a new location where there are no joint costs.

2. To facilitate logistics, they will have satellite bases in Germany and (I think) in Italy. Still not Jolly Old, but then what good is there being based on an island on which there is only one race other than clustering near the other teams? Talent will move to the U. S. if Haas can show them they will 1) get paid and 2) be part of something real. There are plenty of people making those sacrifices to have a job in F1. I don't think it will be the biggest issue.

The biggest issue is money. How much do you want to spend? That's all it comes down to. US F1 failed because they intended to race on a $40,000,000 budget and barely raised a fraction of that. No other factors are relevant...

...unless you believe conspiracies that the team was a scam and never intended to race. Which I don't, though Ken Anderson has a history of being involved in some odd things, and the blatant lies they fed Peter Windsor to feed the media from day one until death were...alarming.

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If haas wants an American driver IMO you can't go past Alexander Rossi, not only there best bet in terms of competitiveness but he has paid his dues, doing consistant and quite good laps over testing. That or bring back villeneuve, for two reasons.

1- to shut him the heck up

2- so I can continuously stand up, point and laugh at his continuous self beleif in himslef that obviously isn't there.

Edited by WebRic

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As I understand it, he does not want a U. S. driver in year one, but would like to sign a young one to a development deal for the future.

I used to think Rossi was the real deal when he first surfaced in Formula BMW. He had Montoya-like aggression, and Schumacher-like willingness to push the limits of what was allowable. He was controversial. He was flashy. He was fast. And he was winning everything he could.

In Europe, however, he developed a real knack for losing championships he needed to win. International Formula Master was not hotly contested, but his year was only "good," not great.

In GP3, he paced the winter testing and won the opener, driving for the best team. He totally disappeared after that.

In WSR, he opened the year with a brilliant win, making a really bold pass to get the lead, old Rossi style. And then he faded out of the championship hunt.

And the year after? As an experienced driver in that field, he was the clear favorite to win the title. He finished something like eleventh, which was alarming because the car had been changed to be more like F1.

He's still young, and has tons of experience, but he needs results that reflect that experience. He's lost his edge, and his new reputation is really as someone who can't close the deal in championships that were gift-wrapped for him with the best cars and the most experience.

The best U. S. drivers he can sign right now, he should sign to his NASCAR team, because that is where this country's talent is. :)

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NASCAR is incredible close and very talented racers but from watching Marcus Ambrose transition from v8 supercars, there seems to be two sorts of race craft out there. Ones who can drive quick on circuits and others who are quick at ovals, seems almost impossible to have both skills in one driver, your either fast at one or the other. I've always wondered why, same in champcar to, some were faster on ovals and circuits than others.

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I'm not sure that ANY U.S. based team can run any type of car outside of the US. Look at the NASCAR racing, got i that antiquated to what is run all over the rest of the world.. I was watching a bit of Darlington Speedway the other day (only cause nothing else was on) and a Caution came out, like I think someone spilled their drink bottle on the track, they showed an in car camera shot and to my amasement the driver reached over to a holder in the door and took out a drin bottle (complete with straw) and fed the straw up under his helmut to have a drink !!!!!!!! Like haven't they even thought of using a small motor to do this ?? Can't they even COPY other people ??? Mind Boggles eyebrow22.gifbyebye.gif

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NASCAR is incredible close and very talented racers but from watching Marcus Ambrose transition from v8 supercars, there seems to be two sorts of race craft out there. Ones who can drive quick on circuits and others who are quick at ovals, seems almost impossible to have both skills in one driver, your either fast at one or the other. I've always wondered why, same in champcar to, some were faster on ovals and circuits than others.

Ambrose has improved a lot this year on ovals, though ironically he's probably going back to V8s next season (perhaps with Penske). Ambrose's advantage on the road courses has been that he brakes so late, but that's also cost him in that you can really wear the brakes in a stock car as they are not so sophisticated. That was an even bigger issue with Villeneuve, who was phenomenally quick before he'd use up the brakes and just run into things. No race management at all...

Oddly, though, since 2009, in the ten road races they've run in Cup, we've had:

4 wins drivers whose backgrounds are entirely oval stock cars

2 wins from a driver whose background is in road racing (formula cars and V8s...wonder who ;))

1 win from a driver whose background is formula cars

1 win from a driver whose background is in off-road racing and then oval stock cars (Jimmie Johnson)

1 win from a driver whose background is predominantly in open-wheel oval racing (USAC sprints and midgets; dirt and pavement) with some very limited formula car experience in F2000/Atlantics (Kasey Kahne)

1 win from a driver whose background is predominantly in open-wheel oval racing (same as Kahne, plus the IRL before it had road courses) (Tony Stewart)

So, that tells me absolutely nothing. :P

But as it relates to F1, I strongly believe the best, most talented NASCAR drivers could have made mighty fine F1 drivers if and only if they had pursued it right from their starts (typically karts) all the way through. It's too late for any of them. Once you gear yourself toward front-engined, stock car racing, no hope. But if they had crafted their talents toward becoming F1 drivers, moving to Europe in their teens and racing formula cars, I think the natural talent was there in quite a few of them.

By the way, in IndyCar, Tomas Scheckter has said that the ovals are more similar to F1 (the smoother style) than the road courses (reliance on mechanical grip more so in Indy than in F1). Some of the results of past F1 drivers suggest they transitioned well to ovals, too.

And then yet another approach: to learn oval racing, Greg Moore went ice racing. Felt it simulated how the cars slid all over the place on greasy speedways.:lol:

More than you cared to know, I'm sure. More than I cared to type, but I always get caught up in saying too much. :P

I'm not sure that ANY U.S. based team can run any type of car outside of the US. Look at the NASCAR racing, got i that antiquated to what is run all over the rest of the world.. I was watching a bit of Darlington Speedway the other day (only cause nothing else was on) and a Caution came out, like I think someone spilled their drink bottle on the track, they showed an in car camera shot and to my amasement the driver reached over to a holder in the door and took out a drin bottle (complete with straw) and fed the straw up under his helmut to have a drink !!!!!!!! Like haven't they even thought of using a small motor to do this ?? Can't they even COPY other people ??? Mind Boggles eyebrow22.gifbyebye.gif

:lol:

But I'm sure you know "can't" and "couldn't" are different. They can't do things that are against the rules (well, they still do, but not so obviously). That does not mean they couldn't do things far more advanced if they were allowed to. As in all racing.

The NASCAR team won't be working on the F1 cars, anyway. They'll hire the people they can and contract with suppliers to make sure there's good F1 experience around.

By the way, the sports prototypes...fairly advanced. Some put them right below F1. Some put them above F1. The ALMS champions Muscle Milk Pickett Racing's LMP1 did not feature a drinks system. It saved weight. During the pit stop, they used the same straw through the helmet method, then chucked it.

I wonder if, with the number of cautions and pit stops they do, that it's just not worth the weight/risk of something failing when there are plenty of opportunities in a NASCAR race to get hydrated the hard way.

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A return of a Trulli train? I can't honestly see that happening...and if it does (or any of the other three), then Haas would lose all my respect in a millisecond.

Trulli is 40 this year (like all good folk msn-wink.gif ), hasn't been in F1 since the end of 2011, and wouldn't bring anything to the table about new cars. Probably too busy playing with his karts than thinking about lacing up his F1 boots again

JV - are you serious??? Well, I guess he kind of is by racing the Indy 500 this year, but I can only think he will be about as good as Jean Alesi. But then, I guess he can tell Haas that he has recent Dallara chassis experience.....

Fisichella is off racing sports cars (and doing quite well) but has been out of F1 even longer than Trulli (2009 was the last time). Again would bring nothing to the table for Haas to learn from about the new cars.

Liuzzi, last seen in 2011, is now off racing Super GT cars. Still reasonably young, but again zero experience with the new cars.

I think the main thing is that none of those four, or ANY driver that is not active this season, will be of much value to Haas. The new formula is very different to 2013 or older cars, and if you go down the track of following a driver that, whilst experienced in F1, as are the four above, without having driven the cars, then the wrong path in development can be taken quite easily (eg Lotus / Ferrari (to a lesser extent)).

If you break it down to pure engineering, then it really is a no brainer to utilise the leading open wheeler manufacturer in the world to design and build your chassis. Going at it on your own with un-heralded or "failed" F1 designers is more of a risk. Haas needs to come to the grid with a car that is reliable. It doesn't need to be a race winner, nor does it need to mix it with the upper mid grid. All they need is to make it out of Q3 more often than not, and from there you build onwards and upwards, gaining the top personnel as you go, and as you prove to be more viable both in financial terms and in worth to an engineer as a "next challenge" you will attract the next Newey**. Do not forget that it was not that long ago that RBR struggled to score points, let alone win anything.

**Tehnically unlikely to ever happen again, as engineers these days have not had the grounding that Newey had, or Brawn, or Head, etc for that matter. Once the Aldo Costa's, the Newey's, and the Head's resign, I think you are actually going to see a levelling of the field, as the next generation of designers are all of a muchness; schooled the same way/think the same way. Mike Gascoyne was supposedly the best of the next generation, but frankly, it always looked like he took his inspirations from a brick...

As I have said elsewhere, it would not be surprised if it was someone like Button with a bit of Honda money and maybe Vandoorne in the other car. They may buy all the bits from McLaren but a Dallara chassis is not the way to go. I won't be Marussia MK II, that's for sure but maybe a customer car is the way to go.

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I can't see haas putting anyone in those cars unless there American. I hate to say this, but i picture his lineup in Scott Speed, possibly an Andretti and definatly Alexander Rossi. Who else besides maybe JV would accept that challenge knowing its basically doomed from the get go. What approach is haas doing that all the previous wanna be us team owners have done? Nothing, and he thinks he can run it from the states. He must have some new NASA type teleportation device because that's what he will need. What a joke. He does realise this type of racing has more than 4 corners right? And there not all left either.

Edited by WebRic

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I can't see haas putting anyone in those cars unless there American. I hate to say this, but i picture his lineup in Scott Speed, possibly an Andretti and definatly Alexander Rossi. Who else besides maybe JV would accept that challenge knowing its basically doomed from the get go. What approach is haas doing that all the previous wanna be us team owners have done? Nothing, and he thinks he can run it from the states. He must have some new NASA type teleportation device because that's what he will need. What a joke. He does realise this type of racing has more than 4 corners right? And there not all left either.

The team already said it is not looking for an American driver to race. It is interested in developing a young one for the future, but not to start.

The difference between this project and the others is that Haas has hundreds of millions of dollars and strong ties to major brands (Budweiser, Mobil 1, GoDaddy) and marketing firms through his NASCAR team. US F1 had $0.12 and a dreamer who may have been a con artist.

England is an island, you know, and there's only one race in England. I wonder how they teleport the cars to China and Spain and Italy and Texas from Milton Keynes.

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Well for starters I can think of atleast one current f1 team that has just as big if a name aswell as money to boot and they havnt won anything in years. As for the "England is an island" remark, obviously you don't see what i talking about here. He wants to base his team back in the us, which can't be done, if it was possible, Mercedes would operate out of Germany, Honda out of Japan and so forth. It's to time consuming and you loose to much ground in the competition if your factory isn't in Europe/England. Take to long to implement parts fr the factory to the car. So in that sense I Beleive haas will fall flat on his face. Why not have an American driver? You think the yanks are going to give a hoot if they have there own team? They want a driver to support. The only way he could possible do well IMO, is if he brought a current team like marussia or Caterham as all the foundations would have been laid. He is going up sh17 creek without a paddle .

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Well for starters I can think of atleast one current f1 team that has just as big if a name aswell as money to boot and they havnt won anything in years.

No one is saying Haas is going to win anything. Getting on the grid is the first step. A lot of us think he will.

As for the "England is an island" remark, obviously you don't see what i talking about here. He wants to base his team back in the us, which can't be done, if it was possible, Mercedes would operate out of Germany, Honda out of Japan and so forth. It's to time consuming and you loose to much ground in the competition if your factory isn't in Europe/England. Take to long to implement parts fr the factory to the car.

They base themselves in England because that's where all the other teams are based. It's about clustering. Haas is going to have satellite bases in Germany and in Italy. The main factory is in the U. S. because that is where his wind tunnel is, and that is where he saves money through joint costs (as in you only pay the cost once for BOTH organizations, rather than paying it twice) with his NASCAR shop there, too. That's it. No one else who has tried this had the benefit of joint costs or owning a state-of-the-art, used-by-F1-teams wind tunnel right there.

Being in England would only help him get personnel. That's going to be the hardest part. Shipping parts out to the cars in Asia from England or from the U. S. is really not that different.

Why not have an American driver? You think the yanks are going to give a hoot if they have there own team? They want a driver to support.

Because he wants to succeed, and no U. S. American is qualified to race in Formula One at this time. It's a new team. You need experience to help yourself grow. No U. S. driver has racing experience in this era of F1. The reason I knew Haas was for real was that he didn't want a U. S. driver.

And it's not about the U. S. Haas is joining F1 to expand his company internationally. Not to boost U. S. interest. He already has tons of U. S. directed marketing, like NASCAR. This is about introducing Haas CNC to Asia, mostly, and Europe a bit.

Scott Speed did not boost U. S. interest in F1, and from what I saw, the American fans were still supporting Ferrari and Räikkönen and Schumacher and Alonso and Hamilton and McLaren like everyone else was in those days.

Plus, more people watch F1 in Spanish in the U. S. than they do in English most of the time. It makes you wonder if Gutiérrez and Pérez have more popularity here than Rossi would.

But again, irrelevant. Haas is doing this to expand globally, not to target the same fans he already has in NASCAR.

The only way he could possible do well IMO, is if he brought a current team like marussia or Caterham as all the foundations would have been laid. He is going up sh17 creek without a paddle .

He didn't buy Marussia, Caterham, Lotus, etc. because the teams all come with substantial debt. He looked into it. He decided to start his own because he did not want to take on their debt. That simple.

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Well that was a good post, you've looked into this abit havnt you and hoping they succeed?

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I hope he succeeds just because the more cars on track, the more entertainment for us viewers.

I disagree that it's the same cost/hassle shipping cars & parts from USA than it is from England though.

There are still a lot of european races on the f1 calendar, all of which are 2 - 3 hours flight from england. So let's say only half the races are 'flyaways' to other continents - but for a factory in USA, that's ALL 19/20 races where a big-a$$ long haul flight is required (except the Austin race of course). Also historically a lot of f1 teams are in the UK because of the infastructure that's already here and the engineering talent which again historically you don't really find elsewhere; and I promise i'm not saying that with a union jack hat on!

I'll say again I really hope it works out so we have 24 competitors, but if it works, it will be the first to have ever done so successfully, at least as far as I'm aware.

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:lol: That's giving me too much credit, WebRic. As a NASCAR fan, information and enthusiasm about this is everywhere I look. :P

I do hope they make it, and I hope "Forza Rossa" does, too. For the same reasons as Jem: more cars. And more cars also employs more drivers. We've lost di Resta, Alguersuari, Petrov, etc. in recent years. Not the best in the world, but all were capable.

I agree that there are downsides to being in the U. S., especially with personnel. They'll be able to convince people to move here and do this once they get a car on the grid and show they're for real, but until then, yes, a struggle for sure. No one's taking their families, packing up, moving to a new nation, only to find out this team doesn't exist. No way. It'll come in time, but not yet, and that's where you might rely on some of the ex-F1 engineers currently in NASCAR (yes, really) and in IndyCar who are already here. The best? Well, probably not, but you need someone who has been there before.

With infrastructure, Charlotte's the motorsports hub in the U. S., so there's at least that, but you're 100% right, Jem. Clustering is the reason all the teams are there. They all center around infrastructure, and then suppliers of F1-related things all center around the teams. Haas won't get that, but the cost savings of using what he already has built in North Carolina have to be strong or he wouldn't do it (Gene Haas is an accountant...who went to prison for hiding millions for tax reasons...so...I'm sure he's looked at costs...). :lol:

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You both correct, the more cars the better, I was alot more entertaining in the 90s with 25-30 cars on the grid. That's Bernie for you, he has made it impossible for us to have that amount of cars again. Iam not really a NASCAR fan but it is awesome to see so many cars out there. Does the 107% rule still exsist? If not, bring that back and the 30 car grid again. I just get the impression he is trying to make a splash in the pan where others failed. But the question is though. Yes we want more cars but it is really worth it if there only going to get wiped as the fail to even qualify.

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I have to agree with Eric. Haas will do this all the way or not at all. You don't throw $20m at a wind tunnel and p**s around. He knows what he is doing, he'll have a deal with Honda, get an experienced driver in plus a promising rookie. Button and Vandoorne are my picks.

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