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Discussion of Sebastian Vettel's Season

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Driver of the day, what a driver hey? Hard for me to watch him as he used to thump my beloved webber, but his talent and speed is phenomenal. Although IMO this season will solidify his status AS a legendary driver more so than now if he can get on top of these new chassis. His sheer domination of a whole gp weekend was reminiscent of only Schumi and Senna IMO. But yet seems to still lack the same "aura" as the two above mentioned. Never the less his 4 titles on the trot I put him in a league of only a few men. I just hope he can still put it up the front this year, otherwise the the car won him the titles comments will reappear and I think the only reason that comes into people's minds is that he has stayed where he is to long.

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Driver of the day, what a driver hey? Hard for me to watch him as he used to thump my beloved webber, but his talent and speed is phenomenal. Although IMO this season will solidify his status AS a legendary driver more so than now if he can get on top of these new chassis. His sheer domination of a whole gp weekend was reminiscent of only Schumi and Senna IMO. But yet seems to still lack the same "aura" as the two above mentioned. Never the less his 4 titles on the trot I put him in a league of only a few men. I just hope he can still put it up the front this year, otherwise the the car won him the titles comments will reappear and I think the only reason that comes into people's minds is that he has stayed where he is to long.

You almost made me cry with this post...

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Well as much as I hate Vettel for stealing marks thunder for so long. He is simply just better.

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Look at the respect Schumi and Senna had from their peers. The rest of the field just knew they werent on the same level as those two.

Does Vettel command that same respect from his rivals? No. They know he's good, but some of them believe they're as good as, or even better, than him (Alonso & Hamilton spring to mind). And that's because so far, he's only kicked everyone's butt in Adrian Newey cars.

Alonso doesnt hide his comments, and said Vettel's 'all-time-great' status will only be valid once he's had a car 'like the rest of us' (Alonso's words) and still wins races. And I agree.

I dont doubt his relentless search for perfection, his blinding qualifying laps, his consistency, his lack of mistakes, his work ethic - all are incredible. But for gods sake Seb please move teams and show us whether you really are one of the greatest of all time!

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Look at the respect Schumi and Senna had from their peers. The rest of the field just knew they werent on the same level as those two.

Does Vettel command that same respect from his rivals? No. They know he's good, but some of them believe they're as good as, or even better, than him (Alonso & Hamilton spring to mind). And that's because so far, he's only kicked everyone's butt in Adrian Newey cars.

Alonso doesnt hide his comments, and said Vettel's 'all-time-great' status will only be valid once he's had a car 'like the rest of us' (Alonso's words) and still wins races. And I agree.

I dont doubt his relentless search for perfection, his blinding qualifying laps, his consistency, his lack of mistakes, his work ethic - all are incredible. But for gods sake Seb please move teams and show us whether you really are one of the greatest of all time!

Absolutley spot on, well said mate.

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Look at the respect Schumi and Senna had from their peers. The rest of the field just knew they werent on the same level as those two.

Does Vettel command that same respect from his rivals? No. They know he's good, but some of them believe they're as good as, or even better, than him (Alonso & Hamilton spring to mind). And that's because so far, he's only kicked everyone's butt in Adrian Newey cars.

Alonso doesnt hide his comments, and said Vettel's 'all-time-great' status will only be valid once he's had a car 'like the rest of us' (Alonso's words) and still wins races. And I agree.

I dont doubt his relentless search for perfection, his blinding qualifying laps, his consistency, his lack of mistakes, his work ethic - all are incredible. But for gods sake Seb please move teams and show us whether you really are one of the greatest of all time!

So he's kicked everyone's butt in Adrian Newey cars... why didn't the more established drivers do that with Adrian Newey cars before Seb did??? Kimi and co at Mclaren???? Why couldn't Webber win the championship in Newey's cars if it really was that dominant. You must believe Webber was severely disadvantaged???? I really don't understand why Vettel should move teams when there's more championships up for grabs. Why should he do such a dumb thing????

So Alonso thinks Seb should have an "ordinary" car. In which car exactly did Alonso win his 2 championships??? In the 4th best car, the 3rd best car??? the 2nd best car????? No, he did it with a very fast car who didn't have reliable issues like Kimi's Mclaren had, the 2nd year they had to remove illegal parts off the car, dampers etc, but he had the best car in both years. Alonso words can also be perceived as spewing hatred and jealousy towards Vettel, thats the way I see it. and now and then he has his ole buddie Hamilton to back him up... They BOTH like to have a go at Vettel now and then, you surely must have noticed...

Vettel was untouchable last year, Alonso had his mouth shut very tightly 2013. He should keep it that way...

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Alonso did have the best car in 05-06 but the reason so many people still think he's the best (despite all Seb's dominance) is because of what Alonso manages in a much inferior car.

I'm not suggesting Seb only won because of his car, and you're right he could win a whole load more races and titles at Red Bull, but the 'greats' showed what they could do with a car that wasn't the best.

This is why I'm hoping that RBR have got it wrong with the 2014 car so that we can see 'Seb the Underdog', and perhaps show us that he really is one of the greats.

A few weeks back I made the point that if the rules hadnt changed in '09, and had stayed the same for the next 5 years, Felipe Massa might have been a triple-world champion, as he was very good at getting pole & then winning from the front. With the 09-13 rules/regs Vettel has dominated, I just want to see what he can do with a car that isnt a clear winner.

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So he's kicked everyone's butt in Adrian Newey cars... why didn't the more established drivers do that with Adrian Newey cars before Seb did??? Kimi and co at Mclaren???? Why couldn't Webber win the championship in Newey's cars if it really was that dominant. You must believe Webber was severely disadvantaged???? I really don't understand why Vettel should move teams when there's more championships up for grabs. Why should he do such a dumb thing????

So Alonso thinks Seb should have an "ordinary" car. In which car exactly did Alonso win his 2 championships??? In the 4th best car, the 3rd best car??? the 2nd best car????? No, he did it with a very fast car who didn't have reliable issues like Kimi's Mclaren had, the 2nd year they had to remove illegal parts off the car, dampers etc, but he had the best car in both years. Alonso words can also be perceived as spewing hatred and jealousy towards Vettel, thats the way I see it. and now and then he has his ole buddie Hamilton to back him up... They BOTH like to have a go at Vettel now and then, you surely must have noticed...

Vettel was untouchable last year, Alonso had his mouth shut very tightly 2013. He should keep it that way...

This is your opinion and I respect that, but in doing so, you must respect my opinion. Weather you hate it or not, not everyone is going to see it from your point of view.

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See I can see what Alonso is saying, I don't agree with him, but I can see what he's saying. Of course that came from a man who knows his chances of winning another title are slipping away and yes, I will say it, he's jealous. Yes Seb has had on of the best cars on the grid, but I wouldn't say it's always been that way in the last four years, at the start of last year the Merc was faster I think, but Seb was still there or there abouts and winning races.

WebRic, I admire you for being able to put aside your personal opinion and say such nice things about Seb. He has shown what he can do and everyone is saying it's just the car, I don't think it is, he shouldn't have to drive for another team before his achievements are properly acknowledged, we all know how hard it is to win one championship, to do it four years ont he trot is just amazing.

Yes, I admit it, I am a Vettel fan and I'm biased, but I'm not about to apologise for it, so there :P

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he shouldn't have to drive for another team before his achievements are properly acknowledged

He shouldnt have to, but he will have to if his achievements are going to be properly acknowledged by his rivals (and many f1 fans)

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Alonso did have the best car in 05-06 but the reason so many people still think he's the best (despite all Seb's dominance) is because of what Alonso manages in a much inferior car.

I'm not suggesting Seb only won because of his car, and you're right he could win a whole load more races and titles at Red Bull, but the 'greats' showed what they could do with a car that wasn't the best.

really, Vettel won Monza with a Torro Rosso

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really, Vettel won Monza with a Torro Rosso

Maldonado got pole & victory in a williams but most of us think he shouldnt even be in F1, let alone an all-time great of the sport.

I'm talking about Seb cementing his 'legend' status by showing what he can do in a bad car. He did have an impressive 2008 season at STR but I'm talking about comparing against what Schuey did in a Ferrari that wasnt really a match for mclaren/williams, what Alonso's been doing every year since 2008.

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People fail to realise, he is loved by the Redbull family, has been since a child and is treated like a son, so IMO weather at toro rosso or Redbull, his equipment would have been better than any team mate he has had, if people don't think so, there in denial, it's like saying Schumi had same equipment as Irvine, barrichello and Massa and we all know that wasn't the case.

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I don't think Vettel had a better car than Mark. It probably fitted Vettel's style more than Mark's, but Webbo was also able to comfortably outpace the rest of the field by a huge margin, when he was not starting in reverse...I've seen Mark drive as flawlessly as Vettel, except that he was doing that in the midfield after a disastrous strat which means more tire wear, more time lost, worst strategy, etc.

Then again, it is true that Mark, Irvine and Rubens don't have exactly the best of memories about their teammates so perhaps there's something there...but I think it's not about the car.

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This debate never ends. Vettel, the car, Newey, he's not a legend yet... blah blah blah.

I know many in the grid think they are equal to Vettel. The FACT is their results show they are not. It's pretty simple really. As much as I hated Schumi in the past, he didn't cheat his way to all those victories did he. He did have immense talent and his records will stand for many years yet.

Vettel doesn't need to move teams to prove to anyone anything. He's proving just how good he is on the track. And the team principals all know how great he is. The drivers privately all know how good he is. And the fans do as well. Newey is not a God. He is a legend however. RBR did not have the best car at the beginning of the year for each of Vettel's 4x Championships but no matter what was the issue, they came out on top. No other team was subjected to the scrutiny and criticisms about their cars either. Yet all the other teams were trying things themselves like double diffusers, F-ducts etc. Yet it was always RBR car's that were deemed as illegal, and the jealous fans of other drivers labeling them "cheaters". Newey is a respectable and honorable man. Give the guy some credit. ALL the teams look at the rules, and seem where the grey areas are. It's been going on for decades. RBR have copped far too many instances where they have to change parts on their car. Not because they were illegal, in fact they were all declared to the FIA and passed scrutiny, but because the other teams couldn't work it out, and thus lobbied and cried loud and long enough to get X banned. Thus they had no honour themselves, because they first tried to duplicated it themselves, couldn't do it, then wanted the rules changed after the fact.

People have to look at all the other aspects of Vettel's driving, not just his wins. He's killing them all in those areas too. Hamilton is a lost cause and will never get his sh*t together. Nicole, Roscoe, his retard rap friends, whatever the distraction, it's not helping his driving or focus in F1. Alonso is a cheater. You may not like that but it's true. He knew about Crashgate, and Massa stated this recently before it happened. How he skated on that one I have no idea. And he was part and parcel in Ferrarigate too, working with the stolen data and so on. For me, Alonso has almost zero credibility. And for people to keep on saying that he is a legend at extracting the best out of crap cars, I refute that. Ferrari has not have crap cars these past few years. But it serves it's purpose to wear this hat of underdog, and he's such a tough driver for getting the maximum out of these junk cars he's driving, because it protects him. It gives him that layer of insulation against any criticism. Alonso has been in the 2nd or 3rd best car for quite a few years now, and his results show that. He's not in the 8th or 13th best car and getting podiums. He's in the top 3, and guess what, he's getting the results that are expected.

The longer this goes on, the more dogged I am of defending Vettel. Because it has to be done. The guy works damn hard, and is so focused at what he does. And I think deep down people know it. And it won't matter if he never changes teams. The best drivers going back decades have often been in the best cars. So if you want to take a shot at Vettel, and not because of anything he's done, but because of the name of the designer who made his car, go ahead, but then you can take at shot at Prost, Mansell, Senna, Schumi, Mika, JV, Hill, and countless other champions who all won in the best cars at the time.

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The way I see it, Vettel and mark only had similar equipment in 09/10 then all of a sudden Vettel is smashing everyone and his own teammate who he struggled to catch in the point standing in 2010, yea same car alright. As for Prost Mansell and co, they all won in more than one machine, well except Mika who was loyal to a poor Mclaren team and turned there fortunes around, so that doesn't fit in this discussion. Vettel is bloody good there is no doubt about it, he needs to get on top again this year, if he does, ill shut my mouth. He seems to MOSTLY have an ordinary race if he is t at the front doesn't he? That shows me, if he was in Alonso's position in that Ferrari, I seriously don't think he would do aswell. That's my opinion though. I know he won in a toro rosso, but you can't say the conditions didnt suit his car more so than others, it did, otherwise, why wasn't he first at spa, or other "fast" circuits? They had Ferrari power and we all know Ferrari have some serious top end speed. That's because Lady Luck was on his side that weekend.

Edited by WebRic

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Maldonado got pole & victory in a williams but most of us think he shouldnt even be in F1, let alone an all-time great of the sport.

I'm talking about Seb cementing his 'legend' status by showing what he can do in a bad car. He did have an impressive 2008 season at STR but I'm talking about comparing against what Schuey did in a Ferrari that wasnt really a match for mclaren/williams, what Alonso's been doing every year since 2008.

Please don't be fooled with Alonso having a bad car....his car since 2008 has been fast, consistent and reliable except 2011 and 2013. Plus the fact that he was the undisputed nr1 driver in the team with a car geared towards his driving style, they broke gearbox seals to advance his cause.

Edited by BradSpeedMan

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The longer this goes on, the more dogged I am of defending Vettel. Because it has to be done. The guy works damn hard, and is so focused at what he does. And I think deep down people know it. And it won't matter if he never changes teams. The best drivers going back decades have often been in the best cars. So if you want to take a shot at Vettel, and not because of anything he's done, but because of the name of the designer who made his car, go ahead, but then you can take at shot at Prost, Mansell, Senna, Schumi, Mika, JV, Hill, and countless other champions who all won in the best cars at the time.

He works the hardest of the current crop, and gave his game away cause this is part of the secret to his success....

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Please don't be fooled with Alonso having a bad car....his car since 2008 has been fast, consistent and reliable except 2011 and 2013. Plus the fact that he was the undisputed nr1 driver in the team with a car geared towards his driving style, they broke gearbox seals to advance his cause.

Vettel is the number one aswell, Alonso's Ferrari has been slow ever since he has joined the team, 2010 he neally had to finish every race on the podium to finish 2nd that year and same in 2012, he was most consistant out of anybody, concidering the points he achieved with far less victories than seb. The proof is in the statistics, IMO the only way seb will hold the type of legendary aura that Schumi,Prost and senna had,is by being competitive in the constant reformats of formula one, that's if he stays with Redbull, he has to fetch the same results in different eras, where changing teams and being successful will cement him no matter what happens. That's probably the best way I can describe it.

Edited by WebRic

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Vettel is the number one aswell, Alonso's Ferrari has been slow ever since he has joined the team, 2010 he neally had to finish every race on the podium to finish 2nd that year and same in 2012, he was most consistant out of anybody, concidering the points he achieved with far less victories than seb. The proof is in the statistics, IMO the only way seb will hold the type of legendary aura that Schumi,Prost and senna had,is by being competitive in the constant reformats of formula one, that's if he stays with Redbull, he has to fetch the same results in different eras, where changing teams and being successful will cement him no matter what happens. That's probably the best way I can describe it.

Vettel is nr 1, then why the big BOOHA about multi21, why the big BOOHA about the wing being switched and MW sarcastic nr2 driver remarks.. maybe we need to acknowledge despite his teammate having exactly the same equipment at his disposal, the level reached by MW 2010 just couldn't be repeated cause he's not that good a driver.....

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Guys, guys...the 2014 mclaren is being launched in less an 90 minutes' time!

People will always disagree on Vettel and whilst his results are amazing, he hasn't had a chance to show what he can do in a bad car, until he does those doubts won't go away.

But he's still young with many years ahead of him, there WILL be seasons when he doesnt have the equipment to win consistently. And then Alonso can review his judgment again at that point.

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Vettel is nr 1, then why the big BOOHA about multi21, why the big BOOHA about the wing being switched and MW sarcastic nr2 driver remarks.. maybe we need to acknowledge despite his teammate having exactly the same equipment at his disposal, the level reached by MW 2010 just couldn't be repeated cause he's not that good a driver.....

I can't Beleive how people actually think they have equal machinery. The difference is night and day, that's the way it goes as a number two driver, you don't get the same sh#t and that's fact and you know it. So you condone team orders do you? Mark had the win in the bag, he was told to turn down the engine revs to save wear and tear on gearbox,engine which are limited items for use over the entire season mind you, to also save fuel and make it to the end. Mark asked repeatedly if seb was told the same and he was told that seb received the same message. Other wise why would Matk turn down the revs if he knew Sebs wasn't going to? That's the issue with Multi 21. The front wing issue, it was nabbed from mark as seb broke his and I don't care what any one else thinks as I've heard from someone it wast the case and mark even clarified the above info in an interview taken not long after the 2013 season ended and I Beleive I did post the actual interview when I came across it some months ago. Simple as this, seb is a fantastic driver, I have admitted that, but to say he had the same equipment as mark, is like saying Irvine, barrichello and Massa did also when teammates with Schumi, and you know they didnt. I suppose Turkey 2010 was Webber's fault to?

May I add this, all the past legendary drivers like Prost, Senna,Schumi, all possessed a ruthless streak that would often bend the rules and raise a few eyebrows, I've yet to see this from seb, he has made some good moves but also some crazy ones that lead into some sort of an incident. Having a ruthless streak is different than dive bombing moves. You can be successful and a world champ by being a nice guy, but to be classed as a legend there is a streak of ruthlessness required. Just look at the history of these drivers we admire from the past. Seb just hasn't pushed the boundaries enough so to speak, yeah he pulls away and dominates from the get go which is truly incredible in itself but he hasn't really put himself on the line so to speak to actually win something. All past legends have been surrounded by some sort of controversy. Something else to remind fans of besides driving a car faster than anyone else.

Edited by WebRic

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I can't Beleive how people actually think they have equal machinery. The difference is night and day, that's the way it goes as a number two driver, you don't get the same sh#t and that's fact and you know it. So you condone team orders do you? Mark had the win in the bag, he was told to turn down the engine revs to save wear and tear on gearbox,engine which are limited items for use over the entire season mind you, to also save fuel and make it to the end. Mark asked repeatedly if seb was told the same and he was told that seb received the same message. Other wise why would Matk turn down the revs if he knew Sebs wasn't going to? That's the issue with Multi 21.

Vettel was disadvantaged with the strategy and was told that with the softer compound at the end he would take his place back , while Webber during the race purposely kept Vettel in harms way (backing him up to Mercedes)...

and yes, until you have concrete proof that they didn't have equal machinery or at least some kind of reputed article from a reliable source, they did have equal machinery... even Mark Webber will admit to this

Edited by BradSpeedMan

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for you Webric, some calls didn't go his way as he stated, but all in all maybe because Vettel was already ahead

http://www.bbc.com/s...rmula1/24798535

I've read that before mate, but read just above what you quoted "they TOOK the front wing from Webber" it's right there.

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