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Emmcee

Redbull And Honda.

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Just been thinking,as we all know Redbull sponsor Repsol Honda motogp team. Now in the last few weeks I read that Redbull had increased its ownership in the Repsol Honda team which got me thinking, could Redbull ditch Renault for possible Honda power? Makes sense, I mean there has to be some sort of good relationship there as they have sponsored Repsol Honda for years. Just a thought, is it possible? I sure if Redbull switched to Honda power it would really make them think of who they give the priority to in terms of better products. Every one knows there relationship with Mclaren but could this sponsorship they have in motogp be used as some sort of leverage?

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It's certainly possible but I don't think Renault will want to give up being Red Bull's engine supplier without a fight. Red Bull-Renault has been a match made in heaven for the past four seasons. Also Red Bull are the only Renault powered team that have been competitive this season so I don't think Renault will give up the ghost just yet.

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It's not about Renault, Redbull are loosing ground to Mercedes solely thought the power unit, there already has been rumors that there "keen" to drop Renault and look elsewhere.

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Renault will wither and die unless they take a giant step next year. Honda will offer two or three teams customer DTs from 2016 on and Mercedes and Ferrari will cover the rest.

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I think a lot of the Red Bull engine talk has been rattling of the sabre by Helmut Marko. He hinted that Red Bull might build its own engine but his boss shot that one down.

Of the two, I would expect Honda to make a better fist of it, but Renault have spent 2014 finding out what is wrong with their PU and that has to help the 2015 redevelopment.

There is also the subject of contracts to think about. There may be performance clauses in it, which would be hard to prove, but RBR are contracted to Renault until 2016 as I understand it.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns28307.html

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Can Redbull though afford to take Renault word for it saying it will improve? They have already said this before and to no avail they still fell sort of Mercedes. I honestly don't think Redbull would risk it if a better/different supplier is on offer, I mean what have they got to loose? Can't get possibly any worse in terms of sheer power can it?

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Dunno. It is gamble either way. I am hoping the Honda PU is a killer, because it is going in the back of a McLaren, but the chances are it will take at least season to make it truly competitive.

Contractually, it could not happen until 2017. If Red Bull could get out of the Renault contract, it would be at least 2016, because Honda have an exclusivity contract for 2015.

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Yeah but we have seen in the past. When Honda put things of and play the waiting game they make it up on delivery. Look at the Brawn,we all know that was Hondas work of art. Yes it had a Mercedes engine which definatly helped but it's advantage was the double defuser. I Beleive Honda and Mclaren will by far be th ones to beat. I see Merc dominating and Redbull jousting with them on the occasion but I Beleive it will be Honda that ends there dominance.

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It took Honda a few years to turn the BAR car into a race winner, though. In fact, they never did, and how the hell Ross Brawn did is a mystery, double diffuser notwithstanding.

I want to be wrong, I want McLaren to be awesome, but I have my concerns.

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When Honda took full control of BAR things just got steadily worse! Until the 2009 miracle of course.

The double-diffuser was just 1 aspect; williams and toyota had the same thing and they didn't win anything.

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Yeah it goes beyond that though. Honda spent three years developing this particular car brawn took over so IMO no matter what power plant, it still would have won. Williams and Toyota, they diffuser wasn't as advance as brawn, that's why when Redbull did mass rear end resign in mid 09 to incorporate the diffuser, don't you think Newey would have done it to the best of his ability? Of course, just plain and simply outfoxed by Honda basically aero wise aswell even though IMO it was a hideous looking car.

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I guess the real point was that having a Honda engine in the back did not work for Honda. A Honda PU in the back of a McLaren (or a Red Bull) is not a guarantee of success.

‚ÄčIt will be good, I have no doubt of that, but will it be good enough?

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The Honda engine may be fantastic but based on 2013-2014 there's still a big fat question mark over mclaren's aero department.....they currently have the merc engine but their car is awful.

Sticking Vettel or any other so-called 'top driver' in the car isn't going to solve anything if they don't design a good one

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The Honda engine may be fantastic but based on 2013-2014 there's still a big fat question mark over mclaren's aero department.....they currently have the merc engine but their car is awful.

Sticking Vettel or any other so-called 'top driver' in the car isn't going to solve anything if they don't design a good one

That's right and no one is better suited for the job than button. He knows where the car is at now and how to maximise it,that will be beneficial in making the right steps to solve the issue. Alonso, Vettel and even now Hamilton I don't Beleive will do any better at all as they dont know what to build on from this year even lewis would be stuck.

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Boullier has said publically that JB doesn't have to prove anything but that they have to look to the future. So for me, to get Alonso doesn't make sense.

I can't see why Lewis would have any motivation at all to go backwards and return to mclaren. And Vettel is RBR's golden boy despite this year's results.

Face it Eric, JB is your lead man! Farm out Kevin for a couple of years and splash the cash to bring in Bottas.

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Face it Eric, JB is your lead man! Farm out Kevin for a couple of years and splash the cash to bring in Bottas.

yep couldn't agree more, bring in Bo77as.

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The key to the Merc engine is the placment of the turbo. It's a unique solution, and is providing enough of a power gain over the other two marques. The Merc hasn't always been the fastest in a straight line, but it does seem to get off the corners a touch faster, therefore it must be carrying more speed through the corner than others. The aero package on the Merc is sublime, in the way that RedBull was for the last few seasons - never fastest on the straights, but quicker through the corners, where race winning cars need to be. Merc has the exact same formula.

Williams is fast in a straight line, but losing ground in the corners to Merc. If they were able to fix that, then they would be right on Merc's tailpipes, consistently.

Danny-boy has won twice this year, and yes, one would say a little inherited (especially Canada), but the Redbull is NOT slow. The step up for Renault will not be huge, and they will most likely deliver for next season. Honda is making no promises about supplying other teams after next season, so RBR isn't going to stitch up a 2016 deal with them this year or next.

Honda the team performed poorly as, like Toyota, the team was board run. As an engine supplier though, you can still operate under that management style as it doesn't affect the team you are supplying the engines to. McLaren is more than able to run the team, and there will be little if any interference from Japan, other than the "why did you not win, Ron-San?".

And we all know just how impressive Honda was the last time it was solely an engine supplier.

I hope Renault remains, as F1 needs at least four engine suppliers. In reality, it could do with a five or six, so that the team/engine ratio is the same for each manufacturer. If Honda performs competetively by the end of 2015, look for Toyota to start testing the water as an engine supplier...or even Hyundai...

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And we all know just how impressive Honda was the last time it was solely an engine supplier.

Wasn't that for BAR 2000-2005?

I agree more engine suppliers the better. More competition.

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I'm only wearing my rose tinted glasses today, and totally overlooked that period dam.gif

I'm thinking more the 80's and 90's.

For all we know the Honda engine in the BAR was good...it was the car that was balls. And so it is in any argument over motorsport - is it the car? the engine? the driver?

Anyways, goldstar for Jem for picking out the fault in my argument :)

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Thanks. I used to think I had encylopaedic knowledge of f1 history until I came across webric who puts me firmly in the shade!

BAR's success was of course purely down to the driver naughty.gif

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Thanks. I used to think I had encylopaedic knowledge of f1 history until I came across webric who puts me firmly in the shade!

BAR's success was of course purely down to the driver naughty.gif

Come on now, your putting yourself down. I very much enjoy chatting to you Jem as I do with everyone else, I find you know quite a bit.

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Do you remember what year and team Red Bull first entered f1 (with sponsorship)? That's a nice easy one (easy for you I mean)

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It has to be sauber, I remember seeing it on Frentzens car in I Beleive 1995, is that correct?

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Prior to 95 they ran a dark silver/grey livery. 95 it was like a navy blue with the Redbull logo on the side of the airbox above the drivers head.

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