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Emmcee

Alonso Or Kimi Gone?

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I just read a story in my local newspaper stating Alonso will stay with Ferrari. If that's the case, where's kimi going? One of alonso's engineers stated that he is staying because he will have the exact same options available to him next year as he does now but also Mercedes then aswell. It's all hard to sort of picture anything out of all this cafufle but one thing is for sure, kimi is remaining quite quiet over the whole issue.

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I thought only two weeks ago that Alonso - Mclaren rumor was silly and false!

But now they are moving mountains in world of formula one!

I really don't know what to say on this info!

Another variable!

My head hurts!

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I know what you mean. Nothing makes sense. Alonso to McLaren makes some sense except for the Ron Dennis-Alonso factor. Vettel-Alonso in partnership would be absolutely riveting. Alonso has questioned Vettel's alleged superiority and stated publicly that things would be different if he did not have the superior car.

I would like to see them matched up but I doubt it would be good for Ferrari.

If Ferrari buys Raikkonen out of his contract, again, I have a good idea where he is going. Party on, dudes, F1 gave me a retirement package!

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I can't place a link, but I've read Ferrari have confirmed Kimi for next year. And Kimi himself said he's with Ferrari next year, and will be in F1 for another 2 years, or another 10 years, meaning if he wants to keep going, he will. They haven't yet confirmed Vettel but Horner is on record saying Ferrari made Vettel a very attractive offer. I've read $80m a year which is a masterstroke when you consider Vettel is his own agent! James Allen has some interesting stuff on this too and it absolutely points to Alonso leaving. Ferrari basically had enough of his wage demands and other demands he was asking for, wanting all sorts of get out clauses, $100m a year wages and so on. Thus knowing they had a pre-contract with Vettel anyway which meant the next team Vettel would drive for would be Ferrari once he left RBR, it wasn't that hard a decision to make. As good as Alonso is, he's divisive. Since Minardi there is not a single team he's been in that once he left, things were still harmonius.

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That is my understanding, too, although I think Raikkonen has hinted that 2015 will be it.

I am not sure about the salary demands, the rumour is that Vettel will be paid $80M per annum. I tend to think that Alonso has been promised the earth for five years and Ferrari have not delivered or come close to it. I think it is more about Alonso and that elusive third WDC.

The probability that he will do it at Ferrari in the next three years is close to zero. At McLaren, it is just about possible and the contract with Honda means that if McLaren stuff it up (again), he would at least have options when Honda expands to other teams in 2016.

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I read also that kimi is staying with Ferrari, but unless there running three cars, alonso or Raikkonen will have to leave.

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That is my understanding, too, although I think Raikkonen has hinted that 2015 will be it.

I am not sure about the salary demands, the rumour is that Vettel will be paid $80M per annum. I tend to think that Alonso has been promised the earth for five years and Ferrari have not delivered or come close to it. I think it is more about Alonso and that elusive third WDC.

The probability that he will do it at Ferrari in the next three years is close to zero. At McLaren, it is just about possible and the contract with Honda means that if McLaren stuff it up (again), he would at least have options when Honda expands to other teams in 2016.

That comment from him was a little while ago now. He's since stated he will be at Ferrari next year and will keep going if he feels like it for another 2-10 years. I doubt very much he will keep going for 10 years but if he did, as a fan that would be great.

The problem with Alonso is I never get the feeling he is that harmonious inside of a team. It doesn't matter if Ferrari promised him the world, they both together didn't achieve those goals. This is Alonso we are talking about. The supposed master car developer who brings 6/10 of a second to any team he's in right? He's been the clear no#1 in Ferrari for his entire stretch, even benefiting from team orders before they were legal. Despite Ferrari not making the greatest cars, they have given him every advantage possible. Making Massa take gearbox penalties on purpose and so on. Where is Alonso's effort in all of this if he requires and demands so much help, preferential treatment from the team for his benefit alone? He's had a fair chance to help develop a great car and along with Ferrari has failed.

So then what is his motivation. To make $100m a year and not win any WDC? or to win his 3rd WDC? He seems to want it both ways, or if not, to then just want the money. I know he's said he wants his 3rd WDC for years now, but it seems to be running second to him wanting more money. If Ferrari had capitulated and offered him $100m, he would have stayed even knowing he might not win another WDC.

WebRic, James Allen and others have stated Alonso is out of Ferrari so I'm not sure where these rumours or reports of Kimi leaving are coming from. Secondly, does anyone for even a split second think Alonso would want Vettel as his teammate? I don't. It doesn't matter if he's beaten Kimi pretty well this year. That's after the fact. I really don't think Alonso wanted Kimi in the team anyway and was publicly pushing and campaiging for his gimp friend, call me #2 Massa to be retained.

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I think Alonso was very comfortable with Massa as his wing man, something Raikkonen would never do. As it turned out, he has not had the opportunity to be a giant pain in Alonso's arse. He would if he could and he still might.

I am a bit less cynical about Alonso's motivation. I think the dollars are important to him, but I am not sure it is at the expense of that WDC. Not sure also that he can be blamed for a lack of success at Ferrari. I often feel he gets the car where it does not deserve to be but the car has not been a genuine championship contender for many years.

There is no doubt in my mind that he is not a team player unless the team is 100% for him at the expense of the No.2. That worked with Briattore in charge, particularly with regard to the ultimate No.2, Piquet Jr, he certainly was prepared to take one for the team. It did not work at McLaren and that led to the most spectacular dummy spit since Eric Cantona.

All in all, I think he is very precious and divisive within a team, but he can sure drive fast.

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The most rational answer is that Alonso signed with Mercedes a while back and that part of the deal is to keep it quiet since the Merc boys are fighting it out for the championship.

The suicide move for Alonso is to go to McLaren. Unsurprisingly, the only people forcefully backing this option are those that have been insulting the Spaniard for the better part of the last decade. It is not difficult to see the motivation behind this particular delusion.

The least likely option is that Ferrari has decided to do without Alonso. They have zero real reasons for this. Sure, the usual Alonso haters are suddenly busy talking about comity but even this is based on absolutely NOTHING other than their own animosity. It makes more sense to assume that there was hole left in Ferrari and the team has managed to fill it with a Vettel seriously concerned about Ricciardo next season.

Of course, likelihood only accounts for so much. Anything can happen. A different issue is to make oneself believe that drivers will be chosen on account of their alleged contribution to imaginary group hugs. F1 is a trainwreck but... is it that much of a trainwreck?

Let's be honest here. What does Vettel bring to Ferrari? Don't be flip. Look at the record. On the track. I say it would have made more sense for Ferrari to hire Ricciardo. And, much as it hurts me to admit it, I would understand if Kimi was let go. But I see no logical reason to do away with Alonso.

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The most rational answer is that Alonso signed with Mercedes a while back and that part of the deal is to keep it quiet since the Merc boys are fighting it out for the championship.

The suicide move for Alonso is to go to McLaren. Unsurprisingly, the only people forcefully backing this option are those that have been insulting the Spaniard for the better part of the last decade. It is not difficult to see the motivation behind this particular delusion.

The least likely option is that Ferrari has decided to do without Alonso. They have zero real reasons for this. Sure, the usual Alonso haters are suddenly busy talking about comity but even this is based on absolutely NOTHING other than their own animosity. It makes more sense to assume that there was hole left in Ferrari and the team has managed to fill it with a Vettel seriously concerned about Ricciardo next season.

Of course, likelihood only accounts for so much. Anything can happen. A different issue is to make oneself believe that drivers will be chosen on account of their alleged contribution to imaginary group hugs. F1 is a trainwreck but... is it that much of a trainwreck?

Let's be honest here. What does Vettel bring to Ferrari? Don't be flip. Look at the record. On the track. I say it would have made more sense for Ferrari to hire Ricciardo. And, much as it hurts me to admit it, I would understand if Kimi was let go. But I see no logical reason to do away with Alonso.

Agree 100%

@ kool monkey - I also agree with what you have said.

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I think Alonso was very comfortable with Massa as his wing man, something Raikkonen would never do. As it turned out, he has not had the opportunity to be a giant pain in Alonso's arse. He would if he could and he still might.

I am a bit less cynical about Alonso's motivation. I think the dollars are important to him, but I am not sure it is at the expense of that WDC. Not sure also that he can be blamed for a lack of success at Ferrari. I often feel he gets the car where it does not deserve to be but the car has not been a genuine championship contender for many years.

There is no doubt in my mind that he is not a team player unless the team is 100% for him at the expense of the No.2. That worked with Briattore in charge, particularly with regard to the ultimate No.2, Piquet Jr, he certainly was prepared to take one for the team. It did not work at McLaren and that led to the most spectacular dummy spit since Eric Cantona.

All in all, I think he is very precious and divisive within a team, but he can sure drive fast.

Horner's comments about Alonso were priceless. Basically stating with Alonso you not only get him but a mortgage as well. Alonso certainly is precious and needs to be constantly coddled and given reinforcement everyone loves him.

What I just don't get is this. If he's "the greatest driver of his generation", why does he seem to need so much help. Help from his #2 drivers and so on? It's a serious question. He always seems to be in an unhappy state if you ask me with periods of him being happy, but mostly just being unhappy. He's had a fair crack at things at Ferrari now. You can't just blame Ferrari for the way things have panned out with their car, because they have been basing their cars on Alonso's likes and feedback. Thus they are both equally responsible.

Mattiachi is a no BS kind of guy. He gets on with Kimi, they are no demands or drama with him. Alonso has too much baggage and history to ever have a clean start in a team now. How many drivers can say they blackmailed a Team Principal and are still in the sport. I think the presence of Alonso in Ferrari was in the end draining to them, and with his monstrous wage demands, various get out clauses and so on, he had little choice but to leave.

maure you might be onto something about Alonso going to Merc, that really would be exciting. As for what Vettel brings to Ferrari, he brings unjaded youth, 4x WDCs and a very keen and intelligent mind. This year might in the long run do him alot of favours, because it's not always a bad thing to struggle at something.

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Horner's comments about Alonso were priceless. Basically stating with Alonso you not only get him but a mortgage as well. Alonso certainly is precious and needs to be constantly coddled and given reinforcement everyone loves him.

What I just don't get is this. If he's "the greatest driver of his generation", why does he seem to need so much help. Help from his #2 drivers and so on? It's a serious question. He always seems to be in an unhappy state if you ask me with periods of him being happy, but mostly just being unhappy. He's had a fair crack at things at Ferrari now. You can't just blame Ferrari for the way things have panned out with their car, because they have been basing their cars on Alonso's likes and feedback. Thus they are both equally responsible.

Mattiachi is a no BS kind of guy. He gets on with Kimi, they are no demands or drama with him. Alonso has too much baggage and history to ever have a clean start in a team now. How many drivers can say they blackmailed a Team Principal and are still in the sport. I think the presence of Alonso in Ferrari was in the end draining to them, and with his monstrous wage demands, various get out clauses and so on, he had little choice but to leave.

maure you might be onto something about Alonso going to Merc, that really would be exciting. As for what Vettel brings to Ferrari, he brings unjaded youth, 4x WDCs and a very keen and intelligent mind. This year might in the long run do him alot of favours, because it's not always a bad thing to struggle at something.

Please. What help?

Considering what we've seen done to 2nd drivers, to go after Alonso on this issue is the height of delusion.

But it is not that I don't understand where you are coming from. In certain circles, Alonso is detested for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. For those whose entire world are these circles, there seems to be universal agreement that Alonso is a scumbag... if not for one reason, for any other reason, no matter how fantastic or incoherent. My advice is that you move on from this echo chamber of festering hostility.

Hiring Vettel and his 4 championships, Ferrari knows that they need a car far superior than the rest. That's how Vettel has won before. Of course, Vettel could improve but that's hypothesis. The fact, the reality, is that Vettel requires a superior car. He might deliver then but, as shown so far, not without it.

The issue is not trivial because not all drivers can win with a superior car. Read that again and think back over the past few seasons. You will be able to roughly divide drivers into three categories. Provided a superior car there are those drivers that can't deliver, there are those that might deliver, there are those do deliver.

Massa and Barrichello, for instance, belong to the 1st category.

Hamilton and Vettel belong to the 2nd category. They freaked under pressure even if they lucked out. Nonetheless, they had to be there and, yes, it is evident that Vettel is a surer bet than Hamilton in this regard.

Kimi, Button, and Alonso belong to the 3rd category. One could argue that their time is past (or whatever), but on the record they delivered when they had to. Ricciardo could also be in this category.

The bottomline is that Ferrari has put itself in a difficult position. Based on fact, and on account of Vettel alone, they are forced to produce a car above the rest. This is a less desirable position than the one they are in with Kimi or Alonso.

EDIT: Forgot Button in the 3rd category and he is a good example because he showed smarts that many drivers would love to have.

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I'd amend your list to bump Vettel to 3rd category, and add Webber and Button to the 2nd category.

- If Vettel's repuation is solely based on him having the best car, then he got the job done, he delivered. Webber did not. The problem I see with your logic about Vettel is that you ignore his win with STR. And that was NOT the best car on the grid. When Vettel has come up the grid to get great results, it's still all the car apparently. When Alonso, Hamilton or others have done it, it's all the driver apparently. And if it's Button it's always down to the changing weather conditions lol.

- Alonso got the job done twice, by having the most reliable car which in that era = the best. He certainly didn't have the fastest car in 2005, but he didn't suffer the constant engine/gearbox issues that McLaren did thus you can argue he did have the best car. He also delivered. He played smart. Whilst Kimi was off blazing away all or nothing, Alonso played it safe and got the points. But he did not deliver in 2007 when he had as good a chance as anyone to win it. Plus the final race in 2010. All he had to do was pass the Russian. The Russian!! ... and he would have won. Webber also could not pass the Russian. I'm talking about Petrov is anyone can't guess. That has to hurt and one can argue he did not deliver that year either.

- Button had the best car for the first half of 2009. He held on to win by the skin of his teeth, but this is why he's in the 2nd category. He should have done better with such a clearly dominant car.

- Hamilton won in 2008. This gets tricky as he may not have had the best car, but I think he had the fastest car. So many what ifs though on this one. Massa for starters. Amazing how a few seconds can determine ones status and career. Because Hamilton could just as easily still be a 0x WDC. Massa really did do well that year. Maybe he deserves a half point. Like put him in the 1.5 category or something lol. I'm not sure who honestly had the best car that year.

- Kimi won in 2007. Many argue he didn't deserve to win the WDC that year, and only lucked into it. Luck has nothing to do with it. Consistency does. When he's given a good car, he excels. 2005 is the prime example of this. The second half of 2009 is another example. Not bad for a driver who supposedly had no motivation in a car Ferrari had abandoned all development on halfway through the year. He still outscored everyone. His 2x wins with Lotus are another. He may not have got the job done in 2005 with the WDC, but taking into account all the grid demotions, penalties and so forth, for me he delivered. Suzuka 2005!

Ferrari are not relying on Vettel alone for next year. Allison has designed cars Kimi has won races in. I think they can do it again. Having Vettel to me is a bonus.

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Vettel won once with STR. It means what it means. There is Maldonado and a bunch other drivers with odd wins.

Vettle's 4 championships were awesome (even without the hype) but the fact is that Ricciardo is destroying him. It matters.

Alonso delivered. So did Kimi (even with Massa letting him pass for the championship, how's that for a 2nd driver's help). Button delivered too and did it with unusual strategic intelligence.

Hamilton lucked out big time. It was an awful season from the two contenders. Awful. In fact, his is the most questionable championship of the lot.

The fact is that Ferrari is trading down (if Alonso goes).

And it gets worse because it leads to a more interesting and realistic question, who do you hire if you can make a car good enough to win but still not the best? That's a fvcking short list and Vettel's name is not on it.

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Aww man that's a harsh comparison. Maldonado? Ouch. When Vettel won with STR, it was way less of a lottery with the new tyre spec however. Maldonado lucked into the musical chairs situation that year where the teams really had no idea how to setup the new tyres at the stage of the year. Thus I still rate Vettel's win in the V10s era with stable tyres in the STR higher than Maldonado's win. And had Perez won in Malaysia for Sauber, I'd rate it exactly the same as Maldonado's win.

Ricci is beating him yes, but Vettel is closing the gap and beaten him these past 2x races. He won't overtake Riccis points this year, and probably won't win any races, but destroy is a pretty strong word at this point. We still have races left this year. What happens if Vettel ends up only a few points behind Ricci come years end? but didn't get any race wins? Does that equate to being destroyed or does that show Vettel struggled, and got to terms with his car setup and got better as the year went on.

I think Ferrari are getting a driver as good as Alonso in Vettel, but without the drama, baggage and the need for coddling. I think Vettel has a long term plan and does not expect to be winning next year, but rather will try to emulate Schumi in the long run. They both were 27 when they joined Ferrari. And Vettel has a very keen interest in F1 history as well. Mattiachi is shaking things up and I honestly feel Ferrari will only get better in the next few years. For now, maybe even for the next 2-3 years at least, it will be all Merc sadly. I've read dozens of accounts of how hard Vettel works off the track. And that is also another comparison with Schumi. Thus year he's simply not gotten on top of things however. I can only surmise as to why, being a new father, Horners views that he might have been somewhat burnt out, the new regs, engines, cars etc. Whatever is the case, I don't expect him to be down for years on end.

The counter argument to Ricci beating Vettel is that Button outscored Hamilton in McLaren, Hamilton's own team. No one gave him a chance to beat Hamilton. Yet it didn't dent Hamilton's career did it.

The scheme of things, it matters not what any of us think really. Ricci beating Vettel will be forgotten in years to come. But his wins, his achievements and accomplishments will still stand.

I'm really looking forward to his Ferrari journey as I truly believe he will rise to the occasion.

I agree with you that Hamilton's of all the current WDC, is the most questionable. But he might end up taking this years crown, so we'll see how that plays out.

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I am too tired to get into a long argument about who loves whom the most, but the answer to what help, or an example, is Piquet Junior crashing on Alonso's behalf. Anyone who believes that Alonso was not in on it is in la la land.

I am not knocking Alonso, I like his ability to make silk purses out of sow's ears, but he is not the messiah, he is a naughtily little boy at times. Remember him holding up Hamilton in qualifying so that Hamilton did not have time to put in a flyer?

Do we know that Vettel can only own in the best car? He is having a hard time in 2014 which is partly down to being unable to get to grips with the car and also to Ricciardo, who did, but as KM said, he won in a Torro Rosso.

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Alonso knew. He has too much of a need to control his environment. And Briattore was and still is his manager. HE KNEW.

It's public fact he tried to blackmail Ron. He had no issues in dissecting stolen data and plans from Ferrari. Thus his character at times really is questionable, and it's not a stretch at all when it comes to whether he knew or not. HE KNEW.

One can only really assess Vettel come the end of the season. And the question remains, if he's within 10-20 points of Ricci at seasons end, and didn't win any races, hows does that affect peoples thoughts. Beaten yes, but not destroyed.

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Concidering Vettel has had what 5 seasons in basically the same car and ricciardo this is his first. So weather he smokes Vettel or beats him by one point,the fact remains Vettel got beaten fair and square on his own turf and that's gotta hurt. Just imagine then what ricciardo could have done in sebs previous cars. And another thing, you don't think any other driver would have done the same in alonso's position when you concider the spying on Ferrari? He would have been doing as he was told. Mclaren just used him as a scapegoat.

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Alonso wasn't doing as he was told, Ron didn't even know about it at that point. So much so, Ron fell on his own sword out of principle to save the team and left his position. Ron may be cunning, he may be a perfectionist, he may be a very tough hombre, but he's never been a cheater.

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Anyone who believes that Alonso was not in on it is in la la land

Yep. "Believes" is the key word in that sentence.

I've seen this game played many times and it was bound to come down this sort of thing again... just as many blatantly illegal events, evidence on the record, are not going to pop up or, if they do, it will be claimed they don't matter.

This is fine. I understand why.

If there were better arguments, there would not be a need for "belief". But there are no better arguments, there are in fact no arguments, so let's pretend interested rumors amount to fact. And let's pretend a lot, because the more a "belief" is repeated, the "truer" it becomes.

It changes nothing, of course. We can all see the points table and we can all see how it has evolved over time. This was true 10 years ago and it remains true today, stubbornly ignoring "beliefs".

Amusing.

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I do not agree, WebRic, I doubt most drivers would try and blackmail the Team Principal! The scapegoat was Ron Dennis and he did that to himself. Few drivers would agree to their team-mate crashing so that they gained an advantage.

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I don't think so but that's my opinion. Dennis playing mr innocent, it's more than meets the eye IMO.

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Would've he though if they got caught? Nope, so he is far from innocent.

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