Emmcee 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2015 http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/517092/Will_it_End_Well_this_time_for_EL_Nano/ This story should back up the statement that me along with many others think that fernando is the best driver out there ATM. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted March 8, 2015 pretty average to me... that poster summed it up for me.. "Is Alonso really the 'most complete driver' around? This nonsense put around by his entourage and the sycophantic press. If he was as good as he thinks he is, why could he not mould the Ferrari team into winners, with the huge budget they have this should have been no problem to 'super Alonso! I do not feel enough credit is given to the other world champions and their respective teams, Red Bull and Vettel, plus Mercedes and Hamilton! If Alonso is deemed as a saviour for any team let him show it with McLaren a team who have performed considerably worse than Ferrari over the last five years! " Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted March 8, 2015 I think Alonso's problem is that he can drive around car problems pretty well, but he can't develop it, thats why the car progressively got worse during the years to the point where another driver with 10 plus experience could'nt even drive it. Ferrari's made a good call getting rid of all the faff! Drivers like Vettel and Kimi needs to feel at one with the car, you often hear how they emphasize the feel of the car. They can tell you exactly what needs to be done to make the car go faster. With the new regulations emphasizing engine superiority, by brake by wire systems and all that, and Kimi refusing to change his style not feeling the need to adapt and them needing to make the car to his liking, he has a very strong point... From Predo de La Rosa “Ferrari are in a good shape now. The car runs well and the team has a good pre-season behind it. Obviously they haven’t shown what the are really capable of. They ran on different fuel-load compared to the others. The car reacted well to set-up modifications and it seemed to be pretty competitive.” During the first test in Jerez every test day was won by Ferrari-powered cars. However, Ferrari couldn’t carry that form over to Barcelona. De la Rosa thinks the Italian giant changed its approach which resulted in the slump in form.“They were very fast in Jerez, then they held something back in Barcelona which was deliberate.” The Barcelona-born driver disclosed that he has already felt an improvement of the car compared to its predecessor as he could test it after Christmas. “I was testing the car in the last week of December and I knew the 2015 car was going to be strong. Right after that it was clear that it also works very well in reality.” Progress has been made greatly already with just the Kimi/Allison combo, just one driver returning to the fold, also with Vettel Ferrari will step back into greatness! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spiral.out 0 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 I'm so sick of people saying "Alonso can drive a car beyond it's limits" or "Alonso can make a car punch above its weight" or "Alonso can drive a car beyond its capabilities". Those statements are scientifically impossible and illogical. A car can do what it can do, a driver can drive a car to its limit but not past its limit. Once its past its limit, it is not possible for it to continue driving. I even hear the F1 commentators saying this crap. Face it, Alonso had five years with the biggest spending team in F1 and came away with Zip, Zero, Nada. He is a failure. I've been saying since mid last year, the 2015 Ferrari will be a better car than anything Alonso drove, because Kimi has had a hand in the development. Alonso couldn't develop his way out of puberty. Alonso was probably told to get lost by Ferrari, that's why he played contractual games. His team never likes him and he cries like a spoilt baby. Bring on the season, cant wait to see him blowing up and catching fire and then start bagging of the team halfway through. Then him and RD will be at each others throats and blah blah blah on it goes. Good times. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 Well it's true, kimi wouldn't even have a single title to his name if Mclaren sorted there crap out, alonso would have won three titles in a row, four if he stayed with Mclaren until 2009. What more evidence do you guys need for crying out loud. So if he comes back and Mclaren start winning again, who is responsible for that? Can't wait for this answer. Aside from that what has kimi done? He was getting whipped by Massa who in turn got floored by alonso, do you guys forget about that? Only tunnel vision here hey? @spiral- your right it is impossible to drive a car beyond its limits but a good driver can get the extra tenths out of it compared to a normal driver, just like alonso did over Raikkonen. @ brad- if any progress has been made at Ferrari I would have to strongly say its down to seb bringing some Redbull secrets with him, if kimi knew what to do, he wouldn't have got smashed by alonso like the way he did, since everyone here thinks kimi knows what he is doing. All he knows what do is give boring interviews. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 I'm so sick of people saying "Alonso can drive a car beyond it's limits" or "Alonso can make a car punch above its weight" or "Alonso can drive a car beyond its capabilities". Those statements are scientifically impossible and illogical. A car can do what it can do, a driver can drive a car to its limit but not past its limit. Once its past its limit, it is not possible for it to continue driving. I even hear the F1 commentators saying this crap. Face it, Alonso had five years with the biggest spending team in F1 and came away with Zip, Zero, Nada. He is a failure. I've been saying since mid last year, the 2015 Ferrari will be a better car than anything Alonso drove, because Kimi has had a hand in the development. Alonso couldn't develop his way out of puberty. Alonso was probably told to get lost by Ferrari, that's why he played contractual games. His team never likes him and he cries like a spoilt baby. Bring on the season, cant wait to see him blowing up and catching fire and then start bagging of the team halfway through. Then him and RD will be at each others throats and blah blah blah on it goes. Good times. no truer words have ever been spoken Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 Lets have a look Races started - alonso 235 - Raikkonen 212 Taking into account Raikkonen was away for two years and alonso missed the entire 2002 season. Championships - alonso 2 - Raikkonen 1 Wins- alonso 32 Raikkonen 20 Podiums - alonso 97 Raikkonen 77 Career points - alonso 1767 Raikkonen 1024 Pole positions - alonso 22 Raikkonen 16 There's no comparison as I firmly Beleive Raikkonen has had better cars than alonso throughout his first stint in formula one. Alonso started on a Minardi, kimi in a sauber so right away kimi had a better car. The next season alonso sat out as kimi went to mclaren, so had a better car than alonso once again, yet when alonso came back on what was his second season in f1, he won his first race in a Renault. Yet Raikkonen failed to win in the Mclaren in his second season and it was a far better car, it wasnt till 2003 Raikkonen won his first race. I don't think I need to go on but you should get my point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 Lets have a look Races started - alonso 235 - Raikkonen 212 Taking into account Raikkonen was away for two years and alonso missed the entire 2002 season. Championships - alonso 2 - Raikkonen 1 Wins- alonso 32 Raikkonen 20 Podiums - alonso 97 Raikkonen 77 Career points - alonso 1767 Raikkonen 1024 Pole positions - alonso 22 Raikkonen 16 There's no comparison as I firmly Beleive Raikkonen has had better cars than alonso throughout his first stint in formula one. Alonso started on a Minardi, kimi in a sauber so right away kimi had a better car. The next season alonso sat out as kimi went to mclaren, so had a better car than alonso once again, yet when alonso came back on what was his second season in f1, he won his first race in a Renault. Yet Raikkonen failed to win in the Mclaren in his second season and it was a far better car, it wasnt till 2003 Raikkonen won his first race. I don't think I need to go on but you should get my point. We should do a comparison Vettel vs Ricciardo too then at Ric's time in F1... shrug (thanks Maure),..........I won't even bother Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 How can you even concider Vettel vs ricciardo? Only Vettel is a champion amongst those two, where talking about who is better between Raikkonen and alonso. As people want to compare the two "champions". If we did a comparison against Vettel and ricciardo, IMO on pure talent, ricciardo comes out ontop. Yeah Vettel won in a toro rosso on a WET monza circuit that he wouldn't have won on if it wasnt wet. Plus the toro rosso ricciardo had wasn't as good as vettel's. not only that, he hasn't had as much time to get the hang of things at Redbull like seb did. Not only that seb would have been priority in the new parts department so ricciardo would have always had an outdated version of the Redbull and still smashed Vettel. Not just by luck but also out racing him on the circuit by actually passing him, even ricciardo said alonso is the hardest to beat out there. This is a guy who has raced everyone and the only one to fight lewis and nico last year, but what would he know?. The best battles last year were the alonso vs riccirado.Back onto alonso and Raikkonen, the stats speak for themselves. I don't care we don't dont agree mate, this is just my opinion and I don't know how many more times I have to say it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 Admit it WebRic, you are just trying to bait the haters and they have answered your taunts with brilliant arguments. Alonso is a piece of sht, they've proved it. Just look at what Kimi or Massa did with the Ferrari. Light years ahead of that mediocre Spaniard. They were the ones beyond the limit while Alonso lagged with almost THREE TIMES less points than his teammate last season. Yawn... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 Admit it WebRic, you are just trying to bait the haters and they have answered your taunts with brilliant arguments. Alonso is a piece of sht, they've proved it. Just look at what Kimi or Massa did with the Ferrari. Light years ahead of that mediocre Spaniard. They were the ones beyond the limit while Alonso lagged with almost THREE TIMES less points than his teammate last season. Yawn... Lol, yeah that's right Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jem of the Shire 0 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 I see that all the arguments of a weeks ago were futile as there is still a lot of hysterical delusion most of which I can only hope is only intended to be taunting of webric (although it's taunting me also lol). Saying Alonso is a failure because he won no titles at ferrari is not a view shared by many, in fact I've never seen this view anywhere else. Most would say, it was thanks to Alonso that Ferrari, who consistently produced below-par machinery, came anywhere near a driver's title in the Alonso/Massa era. I dread to think how bad some of you must think Massa is if Alonso was that bad. By the same argument, you could say Kimi was a total failure at mclaren because he didn't "mould them into winners" and came away with no titles. Except, no-one with any sense would ever argue that, because it'd be utterly ridiculous. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 Yeah exactly right. The stats speak for themselves. Teams wouldn't pay his rediculous salary if they didnt have or think its worth it. Don't get me wrong kimi Raikkonen is a good driver but that's all he is, a good driver. With 20 wins, if he didnt "luck" in at the last moment to win the 2007 title, he would just be another David coulthard/jacques villeneuve level of driver. Which IMO is "yeah there good but not great" category. Yeah he won at lotus but what pressure did he have there to perform? none, there wouldnt have known they would win two grand Prix with kimi so he did well there, but did he deliver when he needed to? no, same as in 2007, he won the title but didnt even build a steady title challenge throughout the season as he was struggling just to keep massa at bay. The way he won the title would be like mercedes taking each other out for like the last 3 races of the season and ricciardo won the title. we all knew mercedes would have won it easily but stuffed it, jist like mclaren in 2007. ism not saying he doesnt deserve it, but he didnt throughlty earn it either. But like I said its my opinion and I only go of what I see,read and whatever Sam Michael's brother tells me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 There's the rub Is Alonso better than the rest? Sure, racing stats are publicly available. Is Alonso trash because he does not perform miracles? Sure, there are no miracles on record. Not one. But if Alonso is trash, what are all other drivers that perform worse (and far worse) than him, that is, most if not everyone else? There, the haters choke. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 Actually Jem, Alonso did not have below-par machinery 2010 and 2012, don't be deceived, the car was pretty fast and most reliable... all the while the cars throught his tenure were just molded to his understeery style Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 There's the rub Is Alonso better than the rest? Sure, racing stats are publicly available. Is Alonso trash because he does not perform miracles? Sure, there are no miracles on record. Not one. But if Alonso is trash, what are all other drivers that perform worse (and far worse) than him, that is, most if not everyone else? There, the haters choke. No other driver had nr1 status like our friend Alonso enjoyed during his reign at Ferrari (except Schumie of course). Mega budget, Mega facilities, team totally dedicated to his every whim and yet horribly failed. I mean, if he could only have used that .6 seconds that he supposely brings to a team. It's the NATURE of the failure Jem... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 No other driver had nr1 status like our friend Alonso enjoyed during his reign at Ferrari (except Schumie of course). Mega budget, Mega facilities, team totally dedicated to his every whim and yet horribly failed. I mean, if he could only have used that .6 seconds that he supposely brings to a team. It's the NATURE of the failure Jem... You claim, you claim,... and you claim. Summing up, you've got nothing but your delusions. Meanwhile, on track, on the record, Alonso remains ahead of the pack. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 Actually Jem, Alonso did not have below-par machinery 2010 and 2012, don't be deceived, the car was pretty fast and most reliable... all the while the cars throught his tenure were just molded to his understeery style Mate 2010 the Redbull and Mclaren were better cars than the Ferrari, heck even the Renault was up there. 2012 Mercedes and Redbull were better, yet he still clawed his way to second place in the standings in those years ahead of webber and only second to seb, only 3 points behind I might add. Raikkonen at Ferrari in 07/08 were still progressing on what was developed by Schumacher from 2006. So I don't see your argument. Once the new regs came in in 2009, where was kimi then? Even alonso won two races at Renault in that period, which the Renault was no where near as good as the lotus kimi had. How come no one remembers that? Plus if I remember right he had 5 wins in 2010. When did kimi have 5 wins in a season last? Yeah alonso moulded the cars to his liking but kimi couldn't even do that last year and ferrari would have already knew what kimis preferred style was. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spiral.out 0 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 Another thing I don't understand is why people can't get their heads around the difference between a crappy car and an unreliable car. Kimi had the fastest car in the field at McLaren but it kept blowing itself to pieces. Alonso had a perfectly reliable car, it was just a dog due to years of his ruination of it. The driver is in no way responsible for reliability unless he drives it badly, and I haven't seen anyone in F1 accused of that. As far as real talent goes, it takes a truly special driver to develop a car to a point where even he cant drive it. So maybe Alonso IS the best!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted March 10, 2015 You claim, you claim,... you claim. Yawn... Kimi had an unreliable car when cars were unreliable (back in the day). I used to think Kimi's was more unreliable than Alonso's in 05 until a friend walked me through the numbers. Turns out, the McLaren and the Renault were about even on breakdowns. What decided the final outcome was when the breakdowns took place. I fear Kimi was not strategic enough there. In any case, to my taste (and as I said before), Alonso did not impress in 05 or 06 like he has since... although, again, he has only done comparatively and thanks to a huge drop of quality in the field... which, sadly for me, includes Kimi. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted March 10, 2015 You claim, you claim,... you claim. Yawn... Kimi had an unreliable car when cars were unreliable (back in the day). I used to think Kimi's was more unreliable than Alonso's in 05 until a friend walked me through the numbers. Turns out, the McLaren and the Renault were about even on breakdowns. What decided the final outcome was when the breakdowns took place. I fear Kimi was not strategic enough there. In any case, to my taste (and as I said before), Alonso did not impress in 05 or 06 like he has since... although, again, he has only done comparatively and thanks to a huge drop of quality in the field... which, sadly for me, includes Kimi. Absolutley, alonso achieved the best possible result available on the day back then and when it mattered. He has been doing the same ever since. So that's why I Beleive 2005 and 2006 were pretty good seasons. He had a strong Fisichella as a teammate while beating kimi and Schumi to the title in 2005. This brings me to Schumi in 2005. If a driver is responsible for a car turns out, then why would have Schumi help build such a dog car in 2005? He obviously knows what he is doing to win 5 titles on the trot, so what do you call that? Exactly the same as in alonso's position and both drove the wheels of the car and drove it to qualifying and race positions the car wasnt really meant to be in. Like you said Maure, it all came down to when these failures happened and who made the best of it when they could. Going of that, kimi has never really put in a full championship run to the point he was neck and neck majority of the season for the title, he had theoretically never had to fight for one. Where I think alonso showed his worth in the season long battle with Schumi in 2006 and which IMO was the last "proper" f1 championship. Alonso rattled of 4 straight victories in the middle of the season, Schumi clawed back and looked like he would take the title until that historic engine failure at Suzuka. And like Maure said, this was back in the days where you would see multiple engines pop in a race. Last season prooved it all. 19 races, alonso beat Raikkonen 16 times in qualifying to Raikkonen's 3, alonso beat him 16 times in the race to Raikkonen's 3 and 2 podiums to kimis none. What have Ferrari done to make kimi more happy in the car? Nothing, they said it was the suspension which was kimis issue last year, yet they are using the same suspension. Iam starting to come to the conclusion that because alonso isn't at Ferrari now, it makes kimi look alot faster, just my opinion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted March 10, 2015 Yep, the statistics are stubborn. I think alonso showed his worth in the season long battle with Schumi in 2006 and which IMO was the last "proper" f1 championship His worth, yes, but only his worth, imo. There was an element of just-by-a-hair in '05 and '06. There was promise but, until '07 was almost over, it was just potential to me despite the two championships. Still, you are right, '06 was the last proper driver's championship. '07 was a disgraceful mess (as a competition) and there have been many seasons since then when there was a single contender with a supercar. And yet, on a couple of occasions, Alonso and Ricciardo have made brave stances with far inferior cars. The true low was '08 in terms of driver incompetence, imo. Those two fools were hardly ever on the same TV shot. It was extreme. Massa would crash and Hamilton take a podium or Hamilton would spin out and Massa grab some points... if only BMW had not given up! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted March 10, 2015 That's exactly right. Every championship since has been won in a car far superior than the rest of the field. It's a shame some people can't relate, when the proof is clear as day. There was a comment earlier on not "hearing" of drivers "killing" there cars due to over driving them. I know of one such case and it was with Mark Webber and the 2005/06 Williams. I heard from my friend who is brothers with sam Michael that mark webber simply over reved the car to often as he was trying to push the car to hard which caused alot of his failures. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted March 10, 2015 Kimi was also one of those. It is one of the reasons why I value him so highly as a driver. The man's got 100% sprinting instinct. Pity he seems too old to give and an even greater pity that no one has come on his footsteps. I don't remember the exact stat but during '08 when Kimi had to yield the season to Massa (due to internal "political" issues, but that's another story), the man still got the fastest lap of the race on 7 or 8 consecutive races, matching or perhaps breaking a historic record. A pure blood, Kimi. Anyway, F1 cars should come apart, used to the max and completely spent, once a race is over. Only a handful of drivers can do that while getting the car to perform as it should. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted March 10, 2015 As far as real talent goes, it takes a truly special driver to develop a car to a point where even he cant drive it. So maybe Alonso IS the best!! Absolute Gold!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
