Vettel Can't Be Serious?

[Emmcee 0]

Here's a story where Vettel says the complexity of the sport and Mercedes dominance is ruining f1. I can agree partially with the complexity but for someone who's car was vastly so more dominant than anyone else's for 4 straight seasons and now because he isn't winning as much as he would like, comes out and says Mercedes dominance ruining the sport. Well change it Seb, don't start whinging like most do because they simply can't win anymore. Don't push away new fans with your "old" attitude.

http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/553569/Vettel_Complexity_and_Mercedes_dominance_harming_F1/

[BradSpeedMan 6]

His car was dominant for 2 of the 4 years.... it was'nt vastly more dominant. The championship went down to the wire the last race in two of those seasons. In 2012 Mclaren was the fastest car. Vettel never ever had a car 1 second faster than the opposition, so yes, I guess you can say he knows what he's talking about

[Emmcee 0]

Ok I'll take into account what your point of view is on this but it's also only been 2 seasons for Hamilton at the top hasn't it not? And correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Vettel also win more races in those two seasons than Hamilton did? I think he won 11 one season and 13 the other, correct me if I'm wrong by any means and I do 100% agree with Seb that f1 should be the fastest driver but it's not anymore and never will be again but I find it a tad rude and arrogant to say such a thing when he was dominating by some margin just like Lewis is. It's funny how both Lewis and now Seb have said the same thing about each other.

Oh and those other seasons that went down to the wire, weren't they against alonso and webber? I believe so, the same alonso that wasn't good enough lol. You crack me up.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Ok I'll take into account what your point of view is on this but it's also only been 2 seasons for Hamilton at the top hasn't it not? And correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Vettel also win more races in those two seasons than Hamilton did? I think he won 11 one season and 13 the other, correct me if I'm wrong by any means and I do 100% agree with Seb that f1 should be the fastest driver but it's not anymore and never will be again but I find it a tad rude and arrogant to say such a thing when he was dominating by some margin just like Lewis is. It's funny how both Lewis and now Seb have said the same thing about each other.

Oh and those other seasons that went down to the wire, weren't they against alonso and webber? I believe so, the same alonso that wasn't good enough lol. You crack me up.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if a driver gets more wins from a less dominant car, does'nt it make him somewhat special?

Correct me if I'm wrong but is'nt this actually the point that he's trying to make....less driver skill more technical aspecs..."The spectators must be able to identify with the technical aspects of the car, currently it is far too complex. In addition, the sound is missing." Thats the key-point he's trying to make...

Correct me if I'm wrong but did'nt Hamilton use insults to make his point, and teamed up with his buddy Alonso with those funny remarks?

Correct me if I'm wrong but Alonso had the whole team built around him to the cost of the 2nd driver. Correct me if I'm wrong but did'nt Kimi win a championship with Ferrari with equal status of drivers

[Emmcee 0]

Correct me if I'm wrong but if a driver gets more wins from a less dominant car, does'nt it make him somewhat special?

Correct me if I'm wrong but is'nt this actually the point that he's trying to make....less driver skill more technical aspecs..."The spectators must be able to identify with the technical aspects of the car, currently it is far too complex. In addition, the sound is missing." Thats the key-point he's trying to make...

Correct me if I'm wrong but did'nt Hamilton use insults to make his point, and teamed up with his buddy Alonso with those funny remarks?

Correct me if I'm wrong but Alonso had the whole team built around him to the cost of the 2nd driver. Correct me if I'm wrong but did'nt Kimi win a championship with Ferrari with equal status of drivers

Sounds like you only want to see what you want to see. How were vettels cars less dominant? That's total bs, in the blown diffuser days redbull was miles ahead. If you think vettels car wasn't built around him and alonsos was, that's just being totally biased IMO. As webber has stated in the past that both redbull cars weren't the same. And we all know why kimi won his title as mclaren couldn't control there two drivers. If it was set out in stone from day one which driver at mclaren was going to be number one, kimi wouldn't have won the title and that's my opinion although IMO it's the one with the most common sense but as your post already shows, you only see it how you want to weather it's right or wrong. Wasn't vettels trademark getting pole and bolting away in the first 5 laps to establish a lead? Yeah car wasn't dominant lmao. Anyway Vettel should be the last driver asking for more drivability and less aids, last time the sport did that (2014 taking away sebs beloved blown diffuser) he got beaten by a new teammate notching up 3 wins to sebs zero, one would have to wonder if it could happen again. I agree the sport is to complex and I already stated that in my OP same as Hamilton saying the same thing about Vettel, you should've seen that? Don't get me wrong I like Seb and I like kimi but IMO kimi is over hyped and over the hill, hopefully he can proove me wrong this year but I doubt it. Seb I was hoping could and can challenge Mercedes but I don't want him to start this verbal war and stoop to Lewis's level, I am just starting to like him and get over his dog acts in Turkey 2010 and multi 21 Malaysia 2013 so this only takes him back a step in my books. He has the ability to beat anyone on the track, use it and not his mouth.

[HeWonIt7Times 0]

Hey guys, new to the forum and a fan of f1 since 1992. Just thought I'd put my pennies worth in.

I think the comments from seb are a bit out of order, he is complaining of dominance, which to be fair, regardless of number of wins etc red Bull did in their championship winning years. 4 titles isn't a flash in the pan kind of thing. It's a stranglehold on the s

Ort. Wasn't sebastian booed on the podium, weren't audience numbers dwindling. People were genuinely turning away from the sport. Whilst some seasons may have been closer than the hamilton/merc winning ones I think it reached a point where people weren't fussed anymore.

Seb had his dominant period and people didn't like it, Lewis is starting to have his and some people don't like it. In my eyes, even though he is at ferrari now it seems built into the red Bull dna to complain when things don't go their way

[Emmcee 0]

Hey guys, new to the forum and a fan of f1 since 1992. Just thought I'd put my pennies worth in.

I think the comments from seb are a bit out of order, he is complaining of dominance, which to be fair, regardless of number of wins etc red Bull did in their championship winning years. 4 titles isn't a flash in the pan kind of thing. It's a stranglehold on the s

Ort. Wasn't sebastian booed on the podium, weren't audience numbers dwindling. People were genuinely turning away from the sport. Whilst some seasons may have been closer than the hamilton/merc winning ones I think it reached a point where people weren't fussed anymore.

Seb had his dominant period and people didn't like it, Lewis is starting to have his and some people don't like it. In my eyes, even though he is at ferrari now it seems built into the red Bull dna to complain when things don't go their way

G'day and welcome, I couldn't agree more with your post. Yeah Seb was booed but that didn't start until after Malaysia and multi 21. Everyone thought he was a pr1ck and he was. It's just this generation of drivers. Did we ever hear Schumacher whinge when he wasn't winning? Did we hear hakkinen or Damon hill whinging when they weren't winning? Not that I can remember as drivers knew back then in order to close the gap, they simply have to work harder. This sort of "trash talking" now is a joke, Hamilton first saying he wouldn't like to dominate the sport like Vettel and yet goes ahead and does it and gets upset when someone sayes the same thing? And yet Vettel is now saying the same thing. What, has he done all he can do already and is now trying to beat Lewis mentally? Sounds like he has given up, what ever happened to shutting your mouth and just beating him on track like the good old days? I used to hate Vettel but seeing him join a new team and just take control and start rebuilding is phenomenal and has started to draw me in as a fan. But attitude and comments like this just make you take a step back again.

[Emmcee 0]

Come on Lewis you said the same thing, both have said ironic and hypocritical comments.

http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/554205/Hamilton_hits_back_at_Vettel_remarks_over_Mercedes_dominance/

[Sakae 0]

Here's a story where Vettel says the complexity of the sport and Mercedes dominance is ruining f1. I can agree partially with the complexity but for someone who's car was vastly so more dominant than anyone else's for 4 straight seasons and now because he isn't winning as much as he would like, comes out and says Mercedes dominance ruining the sport. Well change it Seb, don't start whinging like most do because they simply can't win anymore. Don't push away new fans with your "old" attitude.

http://www.gptoday.c...nce_harming_F1/

Vettel won inside of competitive environment, when others could copy RB and get him, which is not a case with Mercedes (and engine homologation). Secondly, RB was good - my estimate was at approx. 60% - of races. Mercedes (2014/2015) was good in hands of any driver on all tracks. There is substantive difference between then and now, and it is that protected position through limits on development which is at the centre of Vettel's argument. FOM is actually not saying anything different; it's not just Vettel who speaks his mind, observation I do agree with. Moreover, I also think that trophies are second year in the row devaluated because of that.

[Emmcee 0]

That's right, Mercedes got the jump in these new regs and development was frozen, how can you catch up then?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Vettel won inside of competitive environment, when others could copy RB and get him, which is not a case with Mercedes (and engine homologation). Secondly, RB was good - my estimate was at approx. 60% - of races. Mercedes (2014/2015) was good in hands of any driver on all tracks. There is substantive difference between then and now, and it is that protected position through limits on development which is at the centre of Vettel's argument. FOM is actually not saying anything different; it's not just Vettel who speaks his mind, observation I do agree with. Moreover, I also think that trophies are second year in the row devaluated because of that.

ah...a guy with good logic...welcome

[Sakae 0]

Sounds like you only want to see what you want to see. How were vettels cars less dominant? That's total bs, in the blown diffuser days redbull was miles ahead. If you think vettels car wasn't built around him and alonsos was, that's just being totally biased IMO. As webber has stated in the past that both redbull cars weren't the same. And we all know why kimi won his title as mclaren couldn't control there two drivers. If it was set out in stone from day one which driver at mclaren was going to be number one, kimi wouldn't have won the title and that's my opinion although IMO it's the one with the most common sense but as your post already shows, you only see it how you want to weather it's right or wrong. Wasn't vettels trademark getting pole and bolting away in the first 5 laps to establish a lead? Yeah car wasn't dominant lmao. Anyway Vettel should be the last driver asking for more drivability and less aids, last time the sport did that (2014 taking away sebs beloved blown diffuser) he got beaten by a new teammate notching up 3 wins to sebs zero, one would have to wonder if it could happen again. I agree the sport is to complex and I already stated that in my OP same as Hamilton saying the same thing about Vettel, you should've seen that? Don't get me wrong I like Seb and I like kimi but IMO kimi is over hyped and over the hill, hopefully he can proove me wrong this year but I doubt it. Seb I was hoping could and can challenge Mercedes but I don't want him to start this verbal war and stoop to Lewis's level, I am just starting to like him and get over his dog acts in Turkey 2010 and multi 21 Malaysia 2013 so this only takes him back a step in my books. He has the ability to beat anyone on the track, use it and not his mouth.

I do not want to dive (again) into a topic rehashed n-times over, while no minds were changed, but I am noting, that this mantra of claims that RBR - with Vettel - was miles ahead of everybody else is being repeated so often by fans and lazy, bias, media as well, that some fans are taking it as gospel. Meanwhile if I had more time for this (and had will to do that), we could search internet and find several articles with interviews with McLaren's Lowe, who claimed at the time, that their car was just as fast, if not faster than RBR on many tracks. Hamilton, his driver at the time, however did not capitalize on that, and was defeated, thus his supporters concluded that it MUST be all RB which has done damage, veracity of which I question. Today nobody who follows F1 in details will lay a claim, that any car was even remotely at the level of Mercedes. That's the difference when we speak about dominance. The word is the same, nuances and shades of it are however different.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I do not want to dive (again) into a topic rehashed n-times over, while no minds were changed, but I am noting, that this mantra of claims that RBR - with Vettel - was miles ahead of everybody else is being repeated so often by fans and lazy, bias, media as well, that some fans are taking it as gospel. Meanwhile if I had more time for this (and had will to do that), we could search internet and find several articles with interviews with McLaren's Lowe, who claimed at the time, that their car was just as fast, if not faster than RBR on many tracks. Hamilton, his driver at the time, however did not capitalize on that, and was defeated, thus his supporters concluded that it MUST be all RB which has done damage, veracity of which I question. Today nobody who follows F1 in details will lay a claim, that any car was even remotely at the level of Mercedes. That's the difference when we speak about dominance. The word is the same, nuances and shades of it are however different.

ah, as I said, finally someone with some good logic...yes, been there done said that

[Emmcee 0]

ah...a guy with good logic...welcome

Lol that's until he shows his dislike for kimi.

[Emmcee 0]

I disagree that Vettel wasn't as dominant as made out,

Of course mclaren or Ferrari say there car was just as good, there still doing it now, the blown diffuser,Adrian newey, Sebastian Vettel and the Renault v8 engine played a massive part in the dominance that they enjoyed. Teams were giving up trying to catch them in aerodynamics so they focussed more on power demanding circuits that they knew redbull would struggle at and that's the only "Achilles heal" redbull had at the time and that was a smaller hp engine, just like today except that there aero was so advanced it made it less of an issue, the Flexi front wing saga, no one could come up with there own version so they lobbied to ban it, that's how dominant red bull was, we haven't had teams lobby against Mercedes for anything.

[Sakae 0]

I disagree that Vettel wasn't as dominant as made out,

Of course mclaren or Ferrari say there car was just as good, there still doing it now, the blown diffuser,Adrian newey, Sebastian Vettel and the Renault v8 engine played a massive part in the dominance that they enjoyed. Teams were giving up trying to catch them in aerodynamics so they focussed more on power demanding circuits that they knew redbull would struggle at and that's the only "Achilles heal" redbull had at the time and that was a smaller hp engine, just like today except that there aero was so advanced it made it less of an issue, the Flexi front wing saga, no one could come up with there own version so they lobbied to ban it, that's how dominant red bull was, we haven't had teams lobby against Mercedes for anything.

Diminishing Vettel, and elevating someone else under whatever pretenses is common practice on the internet, so no surprises. From my observation of many years, he is however a deserving champion and probably best composite driver on the grid today (without diminishing anyone else).

With Mercedes - again, we are comparing apples and oranges. RBR aero is brainchild born on inside, much to surprise of paddock, and then protested from outside, whereas engine saga (homologation) was voted on and approved in advance by (several) teams, and now they merely got what they deserved for silly decisions taken in the past. FOM however is fighting it in public forum. Cost is one element, but protection of Mercedes's position by regulation is another, and Ecclestone, as far as we know, he is not on board with either.

[Emmcee 0]

I wouldn't go as far as saying he was a deserving champion as he did some pretty stupid and greedy things that prooved he thought about himself more so than the team, he just took what was available and grasped it with both hands, so you think someone like alonso or Hamilton wouldn't have achieved similar results that Vettel did? I beleive so as 2014 proved imo, Vettel had the team working around him and the car built to his needs but couldn't contend with Ricciardo so that's how I see it. So IMO I wouldn't say Vettel is deserving more along the lines of making the most of it as mark webber who basically built the team alongside coulthard, didn't. Vettel and the blown diffuser were a match made in heaven as Seb loves a car with a stable rear end, take that away like they did in 2014 and he finds himself having to re-adapt his driving style and that took longer than anyone expected, a whole season in fact.

[Sakae 0]

I wouldn't go as far as saying he was a deserving champion as he did some pretty stupid and greedy things that prooved he thought about himself more so than the team, he just took what was available and grasped it with both hands, so you think someone like alonso or Hamilton wouldn't have achieved similar results that Vettel did? I beleive so as 2014 proved imo, Vettel had the team working around him and the car built to his needs but couldn't contend with Ricciardo so that's how I see it. So IMO I wouldn't say Vettel is deserving more along the lines of making the most of it as mark webber who basically built the team alongside coulthard, didn't. Vettel and the blown diffuser were a match made in heaven as Seb loves a car with a stable rear end, take that away like they did in 2014 and he finds himself having to re-adapt his driving style and that took longer than anyone expected, a whole season in fact.

We are rehashing old story, but if you are referring to disobeying team orders, to be fair, then you should also reveal what preceded that incident. Horner is on the record that while Vettel's disobedience was magnified in media, fact was, that Webber on more than one occasion has pulled similar stunt against Vettel, but got away with it, and media weren't interested to make headlines out of it.

It is news to me BTW that 2014 car was built around Vettel; what I mean is, that't first time I am reading a such claim. In fact, I heard exactly opposite was true. At the end doesn't matter, because it took Seb a while before he found his sweet spot and feeling for new technology, but then it was already late in the season. With respect to other issue, car swap, you may say that I believe that if he had Mercedes to his disposal for past two years, than he was 6x WDC today.

[Emmcee 0]

Are you aware of exactly what caused the tension with webber and Vettel? It all started at the British GP in 2010 when redbull brought two new wings. Vettel smashed his so the team took it of webbers car, the media made out that webber didn't want it which wasn't the case, he had no say in the matter and that's where it all started as webber was leading the championship at the time, he saw it as a lack of faith or backing to help the lead driver at the time. This along with the rediculous incident in Turkey where half the team actually agreed with Seb and said it was marks fault and anyone with two eyes can see, Seb was 100% at fault there. This is where mark wanted payback and it just so happened to be at a time Seb and the team needed him most, not only that, Seb made it very clear that even if mark was able to win the title, would he help him win it? And Seb said he wasn't sure,which is a answer we all knew meant. And to say redbull obviously didn't build the car around Vettel or didn't know they did is obvious, they knew the blown diffuser was going so they would've had to make the car even more so to suit debs driving style as they would've had no clue just how well Ricciardo would've performed so they would at least one car up there but it was the other way around and besides, when the 2014 car was getting started, redbull didn't even know who would partner Seb at that point. I think Vettel is a great driver but in all honesty I beleive Ricciardo is better and what a better time to show it, when a new season is here with New regs and will suit whoever can adapt the fastest and that was Ricciardo. Seb got frustrated by how well Ricciardo was doing and he couldn't find the answers, swapping numerous chassis and disobeying team orders, so he isn't this "angel" everyone makes him out to be. I for one disagree he would be a 6x champ as he failed to even get to terms with a car his has been familiar with for a number of seasons.

[Sakae 0]

Are you aware of exactly what caused the tension with webber and Vettel? It all started at the British GP in 2010 when redbull brought two new wings. Vettel smashed his so the team took it of webbers car, the media made out that webber didn't want it which wasn't the case, he had no say in the matter and that's where it all started as webber was leading the championship at the time, he saw it as a lack of faith or backing to help the lead driver at the time. This along with the rediculous incident in Turkey where half the team actually agreed with Seb and said it was marks fault and anyone with two eyes can see, Seb was 100% at fault there. This is where mark wanted payback and it just so happened to be at a time Seb and the team needed him most, not only that, Seb made it very clear that even if mark was able to win the title, would he help him win it? And Seb said he wasn't sure,which is a answer we all knew meant. And to say redbull obviously didn't build the car around Vettel or didn't know they did is obvious, they knew the blown diffuser was going so they would've had to make the car even more so to suit debs driving style as they would've had no clue just how well Ricciardo would've performed so they would at least one car up there but it was the other way around and besides, when the 2014 car was getting started, redbull didn't even know who would partner Seb at that point. I think Vettel is a great driver but in all honesty I beleive Ricciardo is better and what a better time to show it, when a new season is here with New regs and will suit whoever can adapt the fastest and that was Ricciardo. Seb got frustrated by how well Ricciardo was doing and he couldn't find the answers, swapping numerous chassis and disobeying team orders, so he isn't this "angel" everyone makes him out to be. I for one disagree he would be a 6x champ as he failed to even get to terms with a car his has been familiar with for a number of seasons.

I think friction between those two started far earlier, when Webber thought he will be a leading driver, which was big oops on his part. He wasn't good enough. Then there were team order which he refused -- Horner admitted, which lead to couple of incidents at later date. (Cause&Effect). With respect to that wing, I have different information. (i) Webber was asked whether he wants it, but he choose not to - Dr. Marko stated in post race interview. Only then Vettel got it. (ii) Media, not really friendly with Vettel, twisted the issue around, and made a mountain out of nothing, and Webber --politician-- let them. (iii) Last year in one interview he actually came clean on that issue; Marko was telling the truth. For me that's water under the bridge.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Same old story Sakae, the line of answering, defiance, answering, defiance . You'll find in a years time the same illogical thinking. You just cant knock sense and reason into another person's brain I guess. These points that you mentioned have been mentioned time and again...

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Kudos to you for trying tho

[Sakae 0]

Kudos to you for trying tho

Lesson learnt long time ago, admittedly in very painful way, that internet is really not a suitable forum in which minds are changed. In fact the other day I dared to express some doubt about a driver, and feedback I received almost immediately was at the level that is reserved for criminals of worst kind. Hiding behind a keyboard gives some people false sense of security. (I am not including in this Emmcee, who is actually quite civil compared to what I got the other day at some other place).

[Emmcee 0]

Same old story Sakae, the line of answering, defiance, answering, defiance . You'll find in a years time the same illogical thinking. You just cant knock sense and reason into another person's brain I guess. These points that you mentioned have been mentioned time and again...

That's not what I am getting at brad, I've heard from someone working in the actual pit lane at the time that, that wasn't the case, that the media twisted the whole story since they were fighting at the front, I've told you that before brad but you insist on what you read or heard is correct, well I heard different and from a very reliable source. Of course redbull are going to "water it down" there not going to say there drivers hate each other and that they favour Seb which became ever so obvious later on in the relationship.

[Emmcee 0]

Lesson learnt long time ago, admittedly in very painful way, that internet is really not a suitable forum in which minds are changed. In fact the other day I dared to express some doubt about a driver, and feedback I received almost immediately was at the level that is reserved for criminals of worst kind. Hiding behind a keyboard gives some people false sense of security. (I am not including in this Emmcee, who is actually quite civil compared to what I got the other day at some other place).

Mate I've got no issue in different opinions or which driver you prefer, I love the debates, I just can't stand when people try to make opinion fact, that's my dislike, but everyone on here is very knowledge and I learn something everytime so it has been a pleasure in that regard. I love it when someone covers the test, I'd love to do that but don't have the time so it's awesome some of the reports and relays that get posted here it keeps me from flicking between sites and is done very well.